look how little that electric cars have to sacifice, while costing twice as much! so efficient!
Wher train 😢
I heard a good saying the other day: “Electric cars are a solution for the car industry.” Give me walkable cities please
I live in Scandinavia, in one of these walkable cities. Everyone has a car. Why? Because relying on public transport or walking/biking everywhere is not practical. It’s just reality.
That’s fair enough. I also own a car, but I try to use alternative means of transport (bus, bike, walk, skateboard) whenever possible. It’s the prioritisation of cars over all other modes of transport where I have the issue. My city is riddled with car filled streets criss-crossing all over. There’s a plan to take one of the most shop focused streets and make it walkable. It would mean that I would be able to get to work almost the whole way on it. I hope it goes through
I’m not disagreeing with you or most people here for being annoyed by everything being build around car usage. I just don’t see it realistically change. You’d have to rebuild most cities from the ground up and invest ungodly amounts of money into several modes of public transport in every city. It just won’t happen.
I’ve had to use public transport to get to a job I loved in a neighbouring city, due to not having a car at that point. Where a drive with the car would have taken me about 20 minutes one way, the bus+train combo I was forced to use was 1,5 hours including waiting times. It was so draining that I quit that job after 6 months.
If this is the choice you need to make, people will take that car every time because you can’t rely on jobs being available within 20 minutes of walking or public transport, most cities aren’t build to offer jobs+housing+shopping within a small radius for all the people living there.
The part about going to your job is totally valid. Some jobs can be worked remotely or partly remotely now, but that doesn’t apply to all professions, so that is something to keep in mind.
In terms of not being able to realistically change the current cities, many of the best walkable cities prioritized cars first and then changed. It took decades, but they eventually achieved it.
There’s this presentation I found after doing some research on the 15-minute cities conspiracy theory, and it was a really interesting talk about how towns and cities can be changed into slower, more accessible ones. It’s an hour long but there’s a 5 minute segment where it discusses cases where cities have changed from car-based to a more walkable one, in this case Amsterdam and Pontevedra (in Spain).
I recommend checking it out. Here’s a link with the timestamp of the start of the section about those cities:
Dr Rodney Tolley: Fast Speed, Slow Cities
In the section before this one, he discusses the cost of other transport modes versus cars. Building and maintaining infrastructure for cars is waaaaay more expensive than for other methods, so cost isn’t an issue. I’ve included the slide below.
Well, would be nice if we would have automatic Taxis. Less of the issues like Parking lots but still a lot of issues present.
It should be automatic this year!.. Ooh wait.
Yes! And you know what, at that point, given the size of a minimum viable car, we could use some kind of algorithm to match people that are going similar places, and put them together to be more efficient. And I bet we’d find that a lot of the large scale transit patterns are common large parts of the population, so we could even use some kind of segregated, higher speed, more frequent vehicle for that.
While we’re at it, we might as well just warehouse some of these vehicles around places where the common cores end and start, and then we would only have to match one end of the trip.
Oh wait, we already have those in operation in China: https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=wvNOTZZeYVs
I think that the solution is automated rail transit. Being in a dedicated place with lower likelihood of encountering people removes nearl every issue that self-driving cars have. Being automated means that 24/7 schedules are possible. If there are enough trains and high enough saturation, need for cars and even taxis is removed.
One train transports 100s of people, the driver is a fairly low proportion of the cost. And there’s other members of staff that are required even in a fully automated system. (network monitoring, security). Removing the driver is a nice step, but it doesn’t fundamentally change the economics of rail transport. If a route is uneconomic, that’s going to be the case without a driver too.
Removing the driver mainly removes barriers to running late - meaning things like drunk driving can be significantly reduced since transit in the US is virtually non-existant at drunk’o’clock, effectively pressuring people into bad decisions when their judgement is the poorest.
If a route is uneconomic, that’s going to be the case without a driver too.
Infrastructure is vital to economic and other activity. It needs to be treated as an investment or necessary cost, not a business. Doing otherwise inevitably results in collapsing bridges, toxic spills, and other symptoms of neglect as corners are cut to maximize profit.
We’re in agreement that night trains are a good thing, but you should push for them whether or not your trains are driverless.
You misunderstand my use of economic. Everything has a cost and a benefit which can theoretically be calculated, with infrastructure like transit that benefit extends beyond fares. Typically governments will do this calculation when deciding whether to pursue a new project, they include all the planning, construction, running costs, and externalities e.g. climate impact, and all the benefits from fares, economic activity, new opportunities for industries and development, ect. This produces a cost benefit ratio. In my research with transport, the best value projects are local safety improvements like cycleways, sometimes the ratio is as good as 10. Large public transport projects are maybe 1-2, and large motorways are usually less than 1. My point was a train driver is a small cost that isn’t going to significant affect this. Of course, this analysis often gets ignored and the overpriced motorway gets built anyway.
You misunderstand my use of economic.
I absolutely did. Thank you for clarifying!
My point was a train driver is a small cost that isn’t going to significant affect this.
Yeah. Definitely the case.
Why does it matter if they’re driverless or not? They still perform the same function and go off and serve other people when you’re not using one.
I can imagine them being cheaper and I only would use people to transit other people when you can have 40 people or so. Where security on big vehicles like bus or train need more caution. A person driving a single person feels like a waste of time or smth. Driverless cars could also be more efficient in routing.
The problem is people got the idea that they need a 3 ton truck to do grocery shopping
The idea that you even need a car for grocery shopping is insane.
Not really, if you’re doing your weekly shop all in one go (especially for a family), it can make sense that your weekly shop can be more than you can carry and thus you need something to help you carry it. I wouldn’t want to lug 4-5 bags of shopping onto a bus where I’m going to piss someone off because I placed them on the seat, nor do I want to try to balance all that on the handlebars of a bike where a single fuckup or pothole I can’t see will lose me lots of money in shopping.
I don’t personally do those sorts of large shops, but people are busy and literally schedule this in their week so it’s not insane.
Or hey, maybe more people could shop online? With well planned routes it could be more efficient than lots of people all travelling to one place.
If you live in a dense area with more local shops, you’ll probably be doing more frequent, smaller shops throughout the week.
My supermarket does this: if you go shopping with public transport, then you can ask the cashier to have someone deliver the just purchased groceries to your house for 5 euro
Disagree on noise. Electric cars are quieter when going slowly and the main noise is engine, but louder when going fast and the main noise is tires.
In fact, low speed electric cars are quiet enough that they’ve considered putting speakers in them to alert pedestrians and make the absence of feedback less disconcerting for drivers.
We’re so used to ICE cars that they’ve contemplated making electric cars pretend that they have an ICE.
They already do this in Europe and other countries where mixed car/pedestrian environments are more common. Electric cars must have some form of audible signature, usually a quiet whirring sound.
They should make it play the Jetsons car sound.
Removed by mod
ice car | electric cartrain? ❌️ | ❌️
simple as.Diesel trains are much more environmentally friendly than EVs. Diesel emissions become less of a problem when one engine carries hundreds of people. And diesel doesn’t even pretend to be good for the environment.
I really think we’re too far in the hole here.
I think fear grips people at every angle and none of us are brave enough to accept bold action for positive change in our society. It seems like most people are just retracting instead.
I vaguely remember that “Ye” (formerly Kanye West) once said something like he formed a think tank to build a city but the thing stopping his team was that “Ye” didn’t understand any of the concepts and he ran it into the ground.
I want public transportation, I think everyone wants it at this point but no no one understands why we need it. They all just want to escape.
(This message was brought to you by the new 2024 Ford Escape: just hit the road and escape to paradise)
there are anti tyre dust tyres
If you’re advocating for reduced car use, increased micromobility and public transportation in the community, voting for change, and doing you’re part where you can, good on ya, you’re fighting the good fight. If you’re unilaterally calling for cars to be abolished, saying that anyone that owns a vehicle is the worst, and shitting on electric cars which are substantially better for the planet simply on the basis of “BAHT ITS STILL A CAR” then you’re an embarrassment and damaging the cause. I have zero doubts big oil and gas is doing everything they can to propagate these views on electric cars in communities and view holders like this, so congrats on being in their back pocket.
This community is so self-damaging to their own cause with their extremist hyperbole.
Anyone with 2 brain cells would agree that better city infrastructure, and increased use of public transportation is a good thing, but anyone with 2 brain cells should also be able to recognize that the car will 100%, absolutely, be necessary on some level basically until we’re able to teleport, and that unilaterally calling for bans on cars (which I’m embarrassed to say is a view that is actually a thing in this community) puts you in our less than 2 brain cells bracket unfortunately.
It reminds me of vegans alienating and crapping on vegetarians, or meatless Monday folks who are trying to do their part but might not be ready for the lifestyle change yet. LIke wtf, we’re all on the same side here.
I live in the northernmost million + population city in all of the Americas (Edmonton), and provide in home healthcare services to children with disabilities across the city. I’m not going to bus, bike, or walk in -30-40 C weather in the dead of winter when I have to be at my next visit across the city in 20 minutes. If you think that’s a feasible thing, then you need to reassess your deluded opinions, and put your money where your mouth is and take the train to the hospital rather than an ambulance next time you need to.
To be fair I’m in a minority, weather and profession wise, no doubt. But there’s a HUGE number of people, also simply because the infrastructure hasn’t caught up yet in many places, where this isn’t possible. I feel like most of these, blinders on bonkers people, are those that live European cities with fantastic public transportation (which again, is THE DREAM for real), but somehow think that this London, Paris, Amsterdam-esque fair weathered, public transportation dream is just the norm everywhere and are somehow unaware that the rest of the ruddy world exists outside their little bubble?? (and before I hear anyone saying “oh but it snows sometimes here too in London”; buddy… Visit northern Canada. These places are fair weathered).
So next time you’re about to post some toxic bullshit like this checkbox picture, remember:
- Crap on public infrastructure.
- Crap on politicians not doing enough, and fight like hell for change.
- Don’t crap on people who are just trying to get by in situations different from yours, who need (yes “need”, see my 5th paragraph) to use cars, and don’t crap on electric cars. Crapping on electric cars like calling someone using nicotine gum to quit smoking weak because they didn’t go cold turkey. A step in the right direction is a step in the right direction.
Also feel free to crap on all the people buying SUVs and Megatrucks when they don’t actually need it vs. a car (“I like to be higher up” - my mom), increasing pedestrian deaths, emissions, tire and brake dust, noise, parking space, and accident damage. If for your next vehicle you buy a car, a hybrid, or an electric and you need it, then don’t let anyone in this community tell you you’re not doing the right thing :)
Oh man, waiting an hour or so for a bus in -30℃ weather is great. Then the bus is inevitably late because it’s Edmonton (where public transit doesn’t seem to get public funding) and you get to enjoy the great outdoors for another thirty minutes. I’m surprised I still have my toes…
I’m so glad my parents gave me their old truck so I don’t really have to deal with that shit any more.
I agree this kind of post may play in favour of ICE manufacturers and oil companies but I disagree with the comparison you make between EVs and tobacco patches. EVs are produced and sold in order to replace ICEs in the exact same segment. They do not impact peoples lives significantly and will not change anything in the way cities and activities work now. The example you give is the epitome of a work/life organization which was only made possible by the massification of individual motorized transportation, with all the negative externalities listed in the OP. Yes individual cars are going to be needed for many reasons in the future. But we need to work collectively to make them less convenient and less needed in everyday life.
oh buzz off with your weird essay filled with jabs and fallacies and bad faith. actually I just reread it and I have to ask: what the fuck is wrong with you? you’re acting like a white guy who hears two black people talking about racism and leaps in to say “stop calling me racist!” you think this post is calling you out? what the actual fuck is wrong with you?
NO ONE IS SAYING YOU ARE PERSONALLY MORALLY WRONG FOR DRIVING A CAR TODAY IN 2024
that’s the whole fucking gist of this entire guy’s essay, folks. he thinks criticizing EVs is a personal attack on him and people who don’t currently live in walkable cities
Several years ago, I considered an EV, got sticker shock, and slowly backed away. I wound up with an ebike instead. What happened with the latter is it turned out I really loved that thing and rode it far more frequently than I would have imagined. It’s not a total car replacement, to be fair, but it handles most trips.
Today, EVs are still expensive, though there are more options and a bit more competition on price. But to make them worthwhile, you need to drive a lot so that you get back some of that initial investment in savings with charging vs fuelling. This means I am not really the demographic for EVs anymore, since I don’t drive enough. It’s so weird… I guess I’ll just keep that 2006 ICE around until it dies, which might be awhile yet considering how slowly the mileage is ticking up.
“Being inefficient” is bit bullshit though.
Why? Cars are more inefficient than nearly every other mode of transport, whether we’re talking energy efficiency, space efficiency or cost efficiency. Only air travel is worse. But those modes make up for that in some circumstances by being fast, convenient and flexible.
Because the infographic isn’t comparing cars to other forms of transit. It’s comparing one type of car to another. Electric cars are incredibly efficient, for what it is.
It’s a meme, it absolutely is comparing both kinds of cars to other modes of transport.
this entire chart is invalid in terms of it though, as half of it is comparing just basic traits of cars as a whole, I believe that was the point of the chart(at least in the way OP is using it). It’s intent is to try and persuade people away from cars, but it does a poor job doing so since it lacks an actual decent alternative in the chart. I think it would be more accepted if they added it in comparison to alternatives such as rail (but ironically that system also shares similar traits to cars).
Ok, yes, you’re right, in those terms cars are not very efficient.
E: I suppose I was thinking of situations like when you have 4 people riding in the car and the trunk is full of luggage. That seems quite a lot more “efficient” than any other method of transportation I know of. Or considering the freedom and flexibility that a personal transportation vehicle + road networks gives you.
But obviously, if you’re driving alone along a route that you could have just as easily done by public transportation, walking or biking, then cars are pretty shit.
I posted this to Reddit over a year ago.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fuckcars/comments/xw8qcb/new_ev_ad_just_dropped_oc/
Ok but this isn’t reddit
Would be nice if this had trains and buses and bikes columns.
