“We regret the deaths and injuries to civilians arising from armed actions. We apologize to the next-of-kin for the suffering and hurt,” said a statement from the ANC to South Africa’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission, set up to investigate apartheid-era abuses and promote reconciliation among South Africans of all races.
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
Which makes a stark difference between the ANC (or rather, the ANC’s policies) and Hamas.
Exactly the same thing you mean.
If I cite any of the many, many times in which Hamas has unambiguously and deliberately targeted civilians with planned attacks, will you concede, or will you just make excuses for the slaughter of civilians?
The ANC had a FAR worse civilian casualty rate than Hamas. The Hamas civilian casualty rate is 66% even including IDF friendly fire on civilians.
If you find a planned attack on civilians from October 7 do link it. I’m curious to see it and will watch it.
If you find a planned attack on civilians from October 7 do link it. I’m curious to see it and will watch it.
I was actually intending on doing any of the many, many pre-October 7th attacks because I’ve seen people deny proof of intentional targeting of civilians as “Israeli propaganda”.
If you read a little further in the ANC letter:
ANC says some guerrillas insufficiently trained
The ANC repeated its position that the armed struggle against the country’s white-ruled government, which began in 1960, was a just war and that civilians had not been deliberately targeted.
But the ANC statement said some of its guerrillas weren’t sufficiently trained and “were never thoroughly under the discipline of the ANC.”
I already know some Hamas members went rogue. When you work with people who’s entire families have been bombed by israel some tend to get trigger happy.
The question is whether these were planned orders from the top down or soldiers going rogue.
The question is whether these were planned orders from the top down or soldiers going rogue.
Okay, so, again, if I provide you with evidence that Hamas has committed attacks which were deliberately planned, from the top-down, to target civilians, you’ll concede the point?
I don’t disagree with this, but Hamas was created by Israel, and now Israel is bombing all of Gaza because of Hamas. It really seems like Israel has been planning this genocide for a loooong time.
In the same vein, Israel’s right-wing regime was in no small part created by Islamist hostilities towards Israel and Jewish people from the very start
Do you mean prior to the Israeli occupation of Palestine in 1967? Because I think it’s somewhat reasonable to be hostile towards an occupational force.
Not a gotcha I’m genuinely curious at what point in history you are referring to, apologies if it sounds antagonistic.
How are you just casually missing 20 years of history before that? Not to mention the preceeding 1000 years.
So you’re saying Israel has a right to genocide Palestine because of the previous thousand years of history before 1967?
We can cherry pick timelines if we want to, but the fact is that Israel has occupied Palestine for the last 50 years. This is why Hamas exists, and this is the issue we face today.
The previous thousand years only serve as propaganda for modern Israel to be on board with the genocide.
This is just straight up islamophobic rhetoric
Wow, those leaps could set a world record. Get real. You’re cherry picking and then accusing me of cherry picking?
What leaps are you referring to?
If you knew anything about what you said, you’d be able to figure that out yourself.
Not only an occupational force, but one extending colonial rule with arguably as bad or worse treatment of the native populace (and no, jews moving to Israel are not native to the land just because that was true a long time ago and they have a book telling them it is so).
Weird, didn’t know that people thought well of Hamas…
I kind of hate this meme format though because it’s normally used to erect straw men, in my experience.
I kind of hate this meme format though because it’s normally used to erect straw men, in my experience.
Boy do I have some news for you
Am I supposed to ask what it is?
Note: This is sure as shit not meant to downplay or deny Israel’s ongoing genocide. Only to point out the absurdity of some online leftists in simping for Hamas and expressing disbelief that far-right theocrats with a history of committing terrible crimes would commit terrible crimes.
Hey @Satelllliiiiiiiteeee what part of this do you disagree with?
What is this type of comment? I see kbin folks do it often
We can see downvotes so I tagged them to see why.
Great part of kbin is up and downvotes are public
Callout, I guess? I generally don’t bother unless someone reduces a number of things in a row for no discernible reason, in which case I usually ask why in private messages. Sometimes it’s something like “Your links aren’t working”, and other times it’s “I think you’re an attention whore and need to be taken down before you infect the Fediverse”.
Uh…forget to switch accounts?
Switch accounts?
they could be far-right freedom fighters, history have definitely seen communist terrorists too
Removed by mod
But you see, in a dialectical analysis, far-right terrorists like Hamas serve a progressive role by not being the US, and therefore deserve critical support by leftists who are definitely not crypto-fascists. —Marxist-Leninists
I see you’ve met Lemmygrad.
Simply put, both sides of the conflict fucking suck, which is what makes it a very difficult conflict to resolve.
But Hamas isn’t the entire side, there are numerous militant groups and average Palestinians fighting against the IDF. It’s a little unfair to say “both sides suck” when one group is using whatever small arms and improvised weapons they have, suffering many thousands of civilian deaths trying to prevent the annihilation of their people, while the other side is fighting to take more territory and has the support of the entire West, with drones, airstrikes, fighter jets and the like.
Sure, the civilian deaths that started AFTER occupants of Gaza raided across the border, killed a bunch of civilians themselves, and took hostages back with them.
who thought hamas was communist?
Loons, mostly. There’s been a multi-talk page dispute on Wiki, for example, over internet twits removing a sourced ‘anti-communist’ descriptor from the Hamas page that had been there for a while, because they want to believe that Hamas is aligned with them so very terribly badly.
There are communist groups that work with Hamas, so that may have been removed because it doesn’t seem accurate.
They aren’t far right or far anything. They are an indigenous justified resistance to occupation with an Islamic outlook and foundation. If you want to support a leftist resistance group there’s the PFLP but they aren’t fighting the colonizers to the scale Hamas is.
Hamas has always allowed elections and asked for it. It is the corrupt [also secular] Palestinian Authority that wouldn’t allow for elections to happen.
I’m sorry, but from what I know of Islam, “Islamic outlook and foundation” = far right. To be fair, I would say the same if you replaced Islamic with “Christian” or “Jewish.” Seems to me, without the religious us vs them, this would be a few degrees easier to solve.
Shit the communists I know saw this coming a mile away and were some of the first trying to make sure people understood Hamas is a right wing theocratic movement.
Doesn’t justify the bombing of hospitals and civilians. Nobody likes Hamas but they’re the result of Israel’s illegal annexation of Palestinian territories and subsequent genocide.
What do you think the Palestinians who had their house and families expropriated, blown up and/or resettled by an Apartheid State will do? Not like/join the guys who want to get rid of Israel more?
Before Israel’s bombing campaign, Hamas wasn’t very popular among Palestinians, now however I assume Israel gave Hamas way more recruits.
Before Israel’s bombing campaign, Hamas wasn’t very popular among Palestinians,
That’s not true in the least.
The state of Israel is older than Hamas and Israel bombing Palestinians started before 7th of October 2023. I think the establishment of Hamas in 1987 and rising popularity till they got elected on Gaza in 2007 can be fairly attributed to Israel’s bombing, displacement and apartheid rule of civilians.
Everyone who fights against the genocidal state of Israel is by definition a freedom fighter.
The brain rot here is something else.
Ever heard of the enemy of my enemy being my friend? You may disagree but it’s a valid position to take.
The US took that position, and we got the Taliban. Yay!
Who has ever said they’re communists?
Yeah and so is Israel. I don’t support either, I support Palestinians.
I agree.
Very telling to (rightfully) say “both sides are bad” but not say “I support civilians on both sides”. You know you can condemn a far right regime but still show solidarity with that country’s population, right?
Now that the terrorist attack is behind them, Isreali citizens arent currently being bombed the shit out of and active warzoned. Are they at risk of future terrorist attacks? Yes, but CURRENTLY its Palestinian citizens who are at a FAR higher risk
Edit: Lmao, apparently Tankies can see and reply to me even if I cant see them. I assume this is because I havent blocked them personally, but instance blocked Hexbear
Clarification to my Edit: Tankies if you are confused why Im insulting you even though you think I’m on the same side as you, Hamas can go fuck itself. Just like Isreal doesnt represent all Isreali citizens, neither does Hamas represent Palestinians. Isreal and Hamas can go fuck themselves, they are both pretty awful. I feel for Palestinians and consider them the most fucked over in this ordeal, but what Hamas did was VILE, even if what Isreal is doing in response is even more so
Oh so the thousands of rockets fired specifically at the Israeli population are perfectly fine.
