- cross-posted to:
- globalnews@lemmy.zip
- cross-posted to:
- globalnews@lemmy.zip
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/1476531
Archived version: https://archive.ph/r4ZKz
Archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20230815100118/https://www.euronews.com/culture/2023/08/14/muslim-women-harassed-at-northern-italian-beach-for-wearing-modest-clothing
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chauvinist wojack: they don’t know they’re being oppressed
“How dare muslims tell women what to wear, we want to be the ones who tell them what to wear.”
Pretty much my thoughts. Who the hell is gate keeping a public beach? Europeans are whacked out. Banning burkinis was beyond moronic, and now this?
I don’t think this is about “Europeans” so much as it’s about ignorance.
Europeans actually working in the space of migrant women’s human rights have pointed out that mainstream society imposing restrictions on their clothes just makes it harder for them to participate in social spaces and be part of the wider society.
Europeans have every right to fight a totalitarian ideology that is actively trying to destroy their chore values. Also, a majority of Muslims don’t wear burkinis.
This is not how you do that.
Being authoritarian about other people’s clothing is not a modern European core value.
That’s why I am not advocating for a ban, simply pointing that it is a tool to spread a totalitarian ideoligy
It’s different things to different people. Banning it is authoritarian.
Europeans have every right to fight a totalitarian ideology that is actively trying to destroy their chore values.
Which I will do by blocking you for that piece of right-wing totalitarian idiological propaganda bullshit…
The value of chores shall not be diminished! Those dishes are going to be sparkeling!
This is just prejudice mixed with ridiculousness. Yes covering head to toe seems weird based on western culture. But it doesn’t hurt anything at all, there are certainly no hygiene issues. Do these people know what’s in the ocean? Everything, that’s what, you name it, it’s in there. A bit of cloth isn’t going to affect the ocean .00000000000001%.
Except… That’s not how the ocean works? There are localized effects to pollution. You can test this by spilling oil in your nearest ocean. Watch how it disperses, and watch how it doesn’t actually disperse that far away from you because of currents and whatnot.
Not justifying the OP, but your statement is really inaccurate.
You can test this by spilling oil in your nearest ocean.
Okay, but I’m telling the authorities it was your idea.
How much pollution do you expect to get off a piece of cloth that’s presumably been washed versus a regular person’s body? Is it really inaccurate to say it isn’t a concern pollution wise? Is it worth bringing up in this context? Despite your disclaimer, aren’t you giving fuel to the idea that the complaints had some merit?
That’s 100% correct though I’d like to add the caveat that you shouldn’t swim in clothing – Burkinis are made for swimming, of course, and they’re fine, but the article says nothing about what the woman actually wore, if you’re about to go swimming in loose-fitting ordinary cloth yes you should absolutely be stopped.
We got basic rescue swimmer qualifications in school (DLRG Bronze) and part of that was swimming in clothing (in particular, age-old ill-fitting flecktarn they picked up somewhere) and then undressing while in water, it is not easy even if you’re a stellar swimmer, if you can barely hold yourself over water without panicking (that’s like the default skill level of people who can supposedly swim) you’re done for. Doubly so on the fucking beach with waves and undertow and everything.
Hey guys, hey, guys, guys hey.
Maybe, hear me out guys.
Maybe we should, guys, maybe we should stop fighting amongst ourselves and all turn our hatred and frustrations to the ones actually making our lives harder?
When did beachwear rules become more than “if you are of age, cover your private parts (unless its a nudist beach)”? What the age is and what “private parts” mean changes from culture to culture, of course.
deleted by creator
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The right-wing mayor of the small town of Monfalcone in Friuli-Venezia Giulia wrote a letter to the Muslim community saying the territory shouldn’t accept the “Islamization” of their customs and to respect the region’s rules on beachwear.
The Italian constitution guarantees full freedom to its citizens but several governments, largely in the north of the country, have attempted to ban various types of head coverings over the years.
In 2006, the Regional Administrative Tribunal of Friuli-Venezia Giulia ruled that the mayor of Trieste could not ban head coverings for security reasons under the 152/1975 because it violated people’s religious freedoms.
The 152/1975 anti-terrorism law states that people cannot wear masks or motorcycle helmets in public to evade identification.
This law has been cited multiple times as cause for banning religious head and face coverings in the northern regions of Friuli-Venezia Giulia and Lombardy, whose regional and local governments have historically been controlled by either the right-wing Forza Italia party or the far-right Lega party.
In 2021, the European Court of Justice ruled that people who work with the public who refuse to remove their hijab or other religious or ideological clothing could be fired from their job in order to present a “neutral image towards customers or to prevent social disputes.”
I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Funny. Normally right-wingers are trying to force women to wear more clothing. These same knuckle draggers were no doubt beside themselves in outrage when the bikini was first invented.
Good.
Wisdom: If you’re the only one wearing a burkini you’re the immodest extremist in the mix drawing attention to yourself.
The definition of “modest” changes over time and is highly cultural and situational.
Harassing a woman to dress like everyone else as to avoid attention is no better than telling a woman what she has to wear. You’re literally just doing the exact same thing as is done to these women but in the reverse. Just let people wear what they want to wear.
As long as it doesn’t infringe on anyone’s rights people should be free to wear whatever they like without being harassed. Plus too much sun heightens the risk of skin cancer so covering up is actually the smart choice.
yeah. as long as you arent putting yourself, and thus rescue personal, at risk it shouldnt matter. like if someone wanted to swim in a down jacket id hope people would try and stop them as thats dumb.
Burkas need to go. Women should have equal rights to men. Modern Islam interpretations don’t believe in equal rights and many women are forced to cover up. Fuck that. As more people come into the west seeking something better, they need to abandon some of their culture that is retrogressive. Burkas as retrogressive. It’s weird how many in the west, particularly on the far left, think it’s important to maintain burkas. I think a person should be able to wear whatever they want, fundamentally, but I’m confident that many of these women didn’t choose to cover up their whole life.
I know it’s just an anecdote, but I’ve know quite a few Muslim women that prefer to wear it. I’ve also met many who don’t like to wear them. Is it really fair to ban it for the ones that actually choose to wear it?
Women choosing to dress conservatively isn’t exactly something foreign to Italians. Let’s not forget that nuns also wear very similar clothing and cover their hair. That’s not so different from a hijab.
Banning the burqa is limiting agency just as much as mandating it. Yeah, I think veiling etc. is honestly a stupid and ridiculously misogynistic custom, but I don’t think the fix is just another rule to limit women’s autonomy, but in a different way than before.
But we should ban leopard print clothing.
And mandate overalls. Just overalls. Nothing underneath.
hijabs are cute ngl, people are dumb
plus it gives you a great excuse to avoid washing your hair for a day or two while still looking snazzy
I’m happy to ban religious veils like nun hats (whatever they are called) and burkas/burqas as problematic religious symbols of misogyny. These religious relics are embedded deep into a culture and that part of the culture is misogynistic and discriminatory.
I don’t know, but I would bet many of the women that “prefer” wearing them prefer it because they believe they would be shunned otherwise from their support system. They “prefer” it in part because they don’t know anything different, and their own community has enforced it as soon as they went through puberty. What does it even mean to prefer something when you haven’t ever experienced not wearing it for an extended time without all your local support group shunning you? Is that really a preference?
But you can’t tell me these things are always comfortable. They look miserably uncomfortable in many situations and must cause a lot of undue heat and such. But the culture that forced these women to wear them runs deep. That part of culture needs to be eradicated.
We should also ban long hair.
I’m sure plenty of women only prefer to have long hair because they think they would be shunned or stan out if they cut it short.
I’m all for people getting to wear their hair like they want, but I’m confident that many women would actually prefer to wear their hair short, and so can’t be trusted to make that choice for themselves or express an honest opinion about it.
The first step in women’s liberation is making it clear that they lack agency and that other people know what’s best for them.
We’re all subject the cultural norms of the society that we live in. Particularly with religious norms, maintaining them can be coercive.
But that doesn’t mean that burkas, in and of themselves, are regressive.
Shouldn’t the goal be to create a space that is free of coercion so people can actually choose to wear it if they want to? Outright banning them is just enforcing a different cultural norm.
I think a person should be able to wear whatever they want, fundamentally, but I’m confident that many of these women didn’t choose to cover up their whole life.
Why don’t you go talk to some Muslim women and actually seek their opinions on these things instead of just assuming what they want?
As more people come into the west seeking something better, they need to abandon some of their culture that is retrogressive. Burkas as retrogressive.
No, actually. If they’ve had to come to the West because the West keeps bombing the shit out of their homes, they owe the West jack shit. Whether or not the Islamic community wants to change some of its cultural practices to adapt to the West is for Muslims to decide and Muslims only.
This is just sexpat white saviorism 101 wrapped up with progressive language.
Internalized Sexism.
“The exact same conclusion as Islamophobic chuds, except I’m being feminist. Trust me.”
It’s possible to be right for the wrong reasons. Don’t let what “chuds” think define your moral code.
Chuds, like broken clocks, are occasionally correct. The key is that if you think you’re looking at a broken clock, you need to check that the clock is working.
We do that by looking at how we got to that conclusion that resembles a chud conclusion and examining the differences between our conclusion and theirs as well.
In this case, the user I was replying to clearly had not talked to many (or any) Muslim women and is simply assuming that women don’t like Islamic clothing because it looks uncomfortable. By that same reasoning, we should also ban neckties and high heels.
If the user got to the same conclusion as the chuds using such poor reasoning, I think it’s valid to point out that they might be chud adjacent.
The west is not some evil entity as you make them out to be. Sure, the west has done some bad shit, but it is far more progressive than many Islamic states that actively enforce misogyny.
It seems to be in vogue these days, especially with people that lean left, to shit on the US and the West. I find it unfortunate that so many privileged people in the west shit think it’s so cool to make their own culture out to be the aggressors and bad guys. They think that, by describing the west in a negative light, they can elevate themselves out of it or something.
I agree that banning shit is not a good idea, fundamentally, but when a culture brings in dumb shit, people should resist that dumb shit and adopt the good stuff. That’s the idea of a melting pot.
Most of the West by land area is built upon the graveyard of peoples slaughtered for their land and on the backs of people enslaved for their labor, but yeah that’s just “some bad shit”.
How about you Westoids deal with your own litany of unspeakable crimes against humanity by giving back your stolen lands and paying full restitution to the surviving descendants of your victims before you get on your high horse about how the Islamic world you’ve continuously bombed for the last two decades isn’t “progressive” enough.
Maybe people wouldn’t have to flee their homes and bring their “dumb shit” with them if you didn’t keep blowing their shit up.
Ah the classic stolen lands argument. You seem to think that the lands were widely populated with a dense civilization by people that had a concept of land ownership. You might be surprised to know that the americas were not densely populated in the slightest and most of the people who migrated to the americas through Siberia (the “natives,” who are actually just early migrants from the Middle East like all early Homo sapiens) don’t always have a concept of land ownership because they lived nomadic lives.
Your arguments are juvenile.
Ahh I see. So genocide is a-okay as long as the victims weren’t densely populated and didn’t think of land in line with the European sense of ownership.
Really, if they didn’t want to be brutally murdered, there should have been more of them and they should have created bits of paper saying who owned what land.
Makes sense.
Your argument is in fashion, but it’s simply not the reality. I suppose your argument is so popular and widespread because the history curriculum has not done a good job educating people.
Who gives a shit what people wear? Just because you don’t like something doesn’t mean it should be banned. People like to cry about the nanny state and then go all in for regulating things that personally offend them yet ultimately cause no harm.
Devil’s advocate, but by that logic you’d be good with people wandering around with swastikas proudly displayed?
For my opinion, I don’t think banning clothing or telling women what to wear is the answer but religious items are definitely symbols of sometimes very sexist ideologies. I just wish true equality was achievable so these stupid conversations and laws didn’t exist. Honestly, I don’t spend a whole lot of time thinking about it, though.
Ah yes, we should liberate women by restricting their freedom to wear what they want to wear
the western white knight is here to let Muslim women know they don’t know what they’re doing because they’re small-minded and brainwashedAlso, weird how you bring up burqas under an article that doesn’t mention burqas. And you make it sound like only far-leftists are against a burqa ban when most liberals/moderates tend to be too.
High heels are actively and permanently injurious to the bodies of women in a way hijabs and burkas aren’t. I never see these “feminists” argue for the banning of high heels.
I wonder why
