- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
- cross-posted to:
- mensliberation@lemmy.ca
Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers
“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.
When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”
Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.
“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.
But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”
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A big problem - for ages now - is, that young men just don’t have fathers. There’s a male around, often, but these are rarely “fathers” that convey a whole picture of a male person. I grew up without one, and I can tell you, how confusing that can be. You attach yourself very easily to ideas other male persons have. Thinking for yourself is another skill that’s kinda rare, not only today, it was at any time. It’s hard to navigate these years.
They also are looking for a place to belong. Incels need love too
I grew up without a dad and prefer it to having a shitty dad, which is what most people have.
Most people have shit dads? Really?
I have doubts, but I’m sorry you feel that way.
Absolutely. A good father is hard to come by.
A lot of them end up clipping the wings (and foreskins) of their children because their wings (and foreskins) were clipped, too.
These kids then go through life thinking that’s how they should treat others if they love them. It creates a lot of confusion that could be assuaged by acknowledging most fathers are shit.
While I’m against circumcision (it’s genital mutilation, fight me) you are spouting some fucking weird nonsense.
Hm I don’t understand, could you explain? I had a different experience so it’s a bit difficult for me to get. My dad wasn’t around until a bit later and by then I didn’t respect him all that much. My mom raised me and told me to be nice with my dad and show him affection, otherwise I wouldn’t have interacted with him as much. I think I’ve taken on characteristics from my mom as a result. What does it look like for someone to have a man or masculine kind of person around?
This is the reason for a very brief period of time, in my late 20s, I almost fell for Jordan Peterson’s schlock. In my opinion he’s the more dangerous one. I am a pretty level headed person and was then, but because of my upbringing I was vulnerable. Tate can suck eggs in hell though.
Or, why I can’t get laid.
I pretty much have a 4 year degree in this article. Love this shit!
Read the comments if you want to be disappointed. Or, see it as an opportunity.
I don’t hate myself that much today lol
People hyperfocus on the 1% of crazy feminists instead of the other 99% who are actually normal and reasonable. Sadly that 1% are doing more harm to the public image of feminism than good.
We live in an age of twitter screenshot outrage and that pathetically emboldens some peoples beliefs so the root cause really is social media. Nothing more nothing less.
I really dislike the way you’re portraying feminism as a brand and trying to assign responsibility onto individuals for the public perception of that brand. It’s not the responsibility of any woman to convince men that they deserve rights, that they deserve fair political power and representation. If someone is dissuaded from supporting women’s rights because someone said something they didn’t like or agree with, that person is a misogynist and unlikely to have ever actually supported women’s rights in any major capacity.
The caricature of the “crazy feminist” is also in and of itself misogynistic, and is used to silence feminist activism all the time. Not that there aren’t legitimate extremist parts to the movement, particularly in the 60s 70s and 80s when feminism had yet to make many major strides towards female liberation. Just that the label is often used to dismiss things like the pink tax, the wage gap, and discussions of rape culture and intersectionality.
I really dislike the way you’re portraying feminism as a brand and trying to assign responsibility onto individuals for the public perception of that brand
Feminism is a brand in the same way civil rights are. There’s a reason why MLK succeeded where Malcolm X failed, Gandhi successfully took back India, Obama won the 2008 election, etc. This all has to do with how they’re perceived to people not part of their movement. Without a good brand none of these movements would have ever succeeded. And yes it is up to the leaders and each individual member of these movements to uphold a generally good perception. Thinking otherwise is ridiculous. You have to win over the population, always.
It’s not the responsibility of any woman to convince men that they deserve rights, that they deserve fair political power and representation. If someone is dissuaded from supporting women’s rights because someone said something they didn’t like or agree with, that person is a misogynist and unlikely to have ever actually supported women’s rights in any meaningful capacity.
In an ideal world no, but we are not in an ideal world. If someone is a mysgonist what is so wrong with sitting down with them and discussing topics like normal human beings and showing them why that’s wrong? Just completely shutting them out like how you’re describing is exactly how you embolden an opposition group. Imagine someone on twitter was actually just simple minded and based their opinions on one tweet and didn’t actually hear the other side properly? A lot of people like that exist. And if your attitude is “oh they’re misogynistic and never cared so I shouldn’t even bother” then you’re just digging your own hole.
The caricature of the “crazy feminist” is also in and of itself misogynistic, and is used to silence feminist activism all the time. Not that there aren’t legitimate extremist parts to the movement, particularly in the 60s 70s and 80s when feminism had yet to make many major strides towards female liberation. Just that the label is often used to dismiss things like the pink tax, the wage gap, and discussions of rape culture and intersectionality.
See what I, and I’m sure many others dislike is the way you derive misogyny from a simple example. A lot of people simply don’t see anything wrong with calling out the “crazies” of a group. Am I islamaphobic for calling out terrorists? No. Am I anti-christian for calling out the Westboro Baptist church? No. Am I misogynistic for making fun of clearly unhinged people on twitter? No. Extreme examples of course, but you get the picture. The instant jump to misogyny when genuinely crazy, unhinged, insane feminists get made fun of is ridiculous. Like I said, >99% of feminists are completely normal and sane. There is nothing wrong or hateful for calling out the crazy people in any group.
Studies have shown for 50 years now that trying to convince a bigot to stop being a bigot is literally not possible. You cannot force someone to stop being bigoted. You can’t convince them women should be able to divorce their husbands if they already believe that women shouldn’t be able to.
We gain nothing by even speaking with them, literally nothing. MLK didn’t just by himself win the civil rights movement, first of all. Nor did he come after Malcolm X or something. They were both a part of the same movement at the same time. The most effective tactics he employed had nothing to do with appealing to the humanity of white supremacist segregationists. The most effective tactics employed were the ones that broadcast injustice to the entire black community, promoting solidarity and resulting in widespread demonstrations, protests, and both passive and active civil unrest. MLK did not call for white saviors to come save them. He fought actively against the system that upheld white supremacy. He appealed to those who already believed that black people should have rights by broadcasting injustice that was self-evidently wrong.
Gays didn’t get rights by begging at the feet of homophobes. We got rights by throwing bricks at them. We got rights by rioting, causing unrest and disrupting the homophobic as much as possible. We wouldn’t be here if black drag queens in the 60s hadn’t punched back.
The other poster beat me to it but I was going to also cite Daryl Davis as an example. If a black person is able to get Ku Klux Klan members to change their ways then anything is possible. You having a defeatist attitude is what keeps this status quo going.
Studies have shown for 50 years now that trying to convince a bigot to stop being a bigot is literally not possible. You cannot force someone to stop being bigoted.
Daryl Davis would disagree with you.
i think the cool stuff the suffragettes did would be labeled way more negatively now. the civil disobedience was rad.
Feminist and women are not synonyms. Feminism is a political movement. Every political movement needs to advocate for itself. That is the way politics works.
Feminism is a political movement in the same way the civil rights movement was/is a political movement or that the gay rights movement is a political movement. It’s a rights movement. It’s a resistance movement, resisting patriarchy and misogyny.
It is self evidently true that women deserve rights. It is not the job of women to convince you they deserve rights. Feminism organizes women against the systems that oppress them. It does not appeal to the humanity of misogynists.
I agree it is self evidently true that women deserve as many rights as men. I’'m 100% in favour of this. But words ae important and “feminism” is not called “woman rights”. Feminism is often framed as being against patriarchism, which is implied to be a male-generated problem. In reality patriarchism is enabled and often enforced by both men and women, when they pass down to their kids a particular set of toxic and limiting cultural values. I was grown up with the idea that I have some specific duties towards my family such as providing for them. My wife has a job that could never provide for all of us, but somehow that’s ok, while I have to strive to get a high paying job or feel like I’m a failure.
Ok this is going to be longer than I expected but I have things to say. I have been on both sides of interview panels. As an interviewer I always used methods as purely objective as possible to evaluate candidates, but i still ended up knterviewing 48 men and 2 women in one of the rounds. Why? Because I didn’t receive any CV from women. I mentiond this to my boss (a woman) and within three months all the management layer above me was populated with women. I can’t say I liked the solution, especially as the actual teams were still 95% male.
In personal life, maybe this is just anecdotal but my parents never taught me any housekeeping skill and they actively tried to dissuade me when I tried, whether I was trying to iron a shirt or wash some dishes. This is systemic, as the girlfried of my flatmate saw me passing the hover once and said that she would leave her boyfriend if she saw him do that.
So my position on this is actualy whataboutist and the point here is that maybe it’s not you but a considerable chunck of women is actively participating in patriarchism while others react to it in a sort of class warfare which puts men, especially ones that are younger and less experienced at navigating life, in a very difficult spot where they are shamed by both sides and end up feeling like failures. Of course they will follow whoever tells them they deserve better.
Soooo maybe I’m full of shit, I actually don’t know. I grew up in the 90s, which was a different planet, and I’m just trying to be reasonable.
The only time I ever hear about that 1% is from the conservative propaganda machine, or MSM rebuttal. They hold zero power outside of the conservative cinematic universe.
At this point I consider it nothing more than manufactured outrage.
I wish I had your luck. It’s not rare for me to get misdandrists posts every time I open xitter to check on something, always blaming men in general and how awful we are, it’s just the same as misoginists going on about how awful women in general are.
They both write in a way that it gets a reaction and to apply that statement like if it could fit every member of the opposite sex.Both might be loud minorities, but there’s a reason they are called loud, I swear I keep blocking and reporting at least 1 or 2 accounts every time I open it (altough xitter seems to think nothing is misoginists or misdandrists).
I would not define misogyny as a minority opinion. I also do not think youre talking about the same thing. Misogynists don’t just say they hate women. Misogynists want traditional wives. They want to get away with sexual assault and domestic violence. They want women to be subservient, submissive, and have less access to society than men do. Misogynists believe women are weak (physically, emotionally, and mentally), they control women’s sexuality by policing it through the use of language like “prude” or “wh*re”. Misogynists don’t want women to have equality of pay, they don’t believe women should have equal representation in the government and many of them don’t believe that women should vote. Misogynists believe that they are owed sex from women. They believe that women who deny them are evil. Misogyny is not a dislike of women, it’s a hatred for the autonomy of women. A hatred for feminism and the progress it’s achieved.
I don’t define anything, I just go by what it’s already defined.
Either way it’s irrelevant, we are agreeing that it’s wrong and that misoginists and misandrist are loud (it’s hard if not impossible to know if it’s actually a minority or majority) to get others to believe them by anger and fear, sadly it works too well.
every time I open xitter
Well there’s your problem right there
Their enemies are shadows on the wall, shadows of their own minds.
I mean there’s TERFs, they speak for feminism, no?
People keep forgetting that until recently, TERF used to be the default position of feminism
When recently? Because if you mean 30 years ago, yeah. But by the 00s it wasn’t anymore. And before the 80s it wasn’t yet. It was a powerful force in the second wave.
I’ve always felt like these things are cyclical in a way - just in that people are constantly rebelling against the last generation.
When I went to high school in the early 2010s there was this huge movement of like… positivity and sunshine and wellness and feminism and good times for all. Bob Ross was on everyone’s mind and Pharrell’s “Happy” blasted on the stereo, people wore really bright and mismatched and often gaudy outfits.
This was seemingly “in response” to that mid 2000s emo/grunge/depressed aesthetic which was very dark and moody. And now, in response to that 2010s positivity we seem to get this really jaded, “actually, feminism sucks and becoming a ‘trad catholic’ is chic” movement.
It’s annoying, and I’m sure we’ll see an opposite shift again in 5 years.
I’ve always felt like these things are cyclical in a way - just in that people are constantly rebelling against the last generation.
That implies that it’s somehow a natural cycle, but this is dangerous because it ignores and “Laissez-faire” the fascist propaganda that is blasted deliberately into our global society. It started with fox news and talk radio where funding from fascists helped spread “misinformation” and now continues on social media, where the same funding takes place. The strategy behind this funding is that fascism works when socio-economic circumstances get worse and worse, and allow further exploitation.
Additionally, controversial viewpoints are rewarded by more engagement and clicks - and so become part of the strategy of AI algorithms.
You should absolutely not assume it gets better on it’s own, without enough people pushing back against it and without the rules of how the system is allowed to work being changed. Gen Z is just as susceptible to propaganda as Boomers.
Yeah, but I think a lot of it is just high schoolers trying to be different than the last generation. I don’t think that Fox News was in charge of people getting really into Bob Ross 10 years ago.
Jeez, you must have gone to high school in a rich neighborhood
For most people 2009-2015 or so was an impoverished hellhole. Everyone was recovering from the great recession. Societal outlook was fucking BLEAK.
I did not. You can have poor economic conditions but still a cultural zeitgeist focused more on positivity, inclusion, and “wellness” than usual
Not saying it’s impossible, but I’ve never seen it
How many schools did you sample to come to this conclusion?
- My family moved around a lot when I was in high school. Between me and my brother, 5 different high schools.
7 if you count a couple of high schools I “toured” but never went to. That was just one day at each though.
3 different states, but all in poor Southern areas.
If it helps you, imagine the following - as I believe your personal experience may be clouding things slightly .
Directly prior to the very “Emo / goth / punk / skinny jeans” time of around 2004-2010 was the early 00s. Now, in some ways the early 00s were very bleak. It was post 9/11, the economy did not like the possibility of a major war, and simply put many people genuinely thought it was some end of an empire time where further attacks on US soil might become common. At the same time, it was still the era of boy bands, brightly colored and flashy technology and clothing, blonde hair, and going to the mall + beach with your friends. Bad things were occurring, but the cultural zeitgeist for that age demographic was still in a “bright and positive” phase
weird cause I got really depressed around that time because I was an unemployable highschool dropout during a recession so I fucking hated that happy song.
Same bro. I thought about suicide very often and leaned heavily into substance abuse. What a fun time.
I respect your thoughts on this as they’re very fleshed out and sound like something that could be accurate, but the big problem i see is that your experiences in high-school are extremely biased by your age and limited experience with the wider world at the time. I’m not singling you out btw, because my saying this is based on my own self-reflection of earlier years. Before you are fully integrated into society and also, your frontal lobe is literally still developing until you’re in your mid twenties, it is hard to assess the state of things imo. There is definitely a capitalist/media centered cultural zeitgeist that pervades everything, and I’m sure has profound effects, I just can’t buy being able to fully grasp it in highschool or earlier. I look forward to your reply.
I hear you, I just want to reiterate that the discussion at hand (from the OP down) is specifically talking about that specific high school age bracket, which is why I’m invoking it so much. Culture is obviously going to be different between age groups, and a lot of that difference is imo a direct “opposition” of that previous group.
Just very anecdotally, I remember seeing a goofy little post, very clearly made by a gen-z individual, stereotyping millennials as this kind of chronically depressed, down on themselves type. Which I thought was kind of funny. Even something like the “trend” of “being depressed” the next generation will recognize and (consciously or subconsciously) change their own behavior based on it.
I don’t think there’s too much to say. I am largely just spitballing on a pattern I’ve noticed at least with fashion and “aesthetics” in that age group over time.
Appreciate the conversation as well. I’m new on the site and it really is like night and day compared to trying to have a polite little conversation on Reddit.
Every single day I see a new reason why I am glad I pulled my daughter out of the hell that is public middle school and put her into online school.
She told me yesterday that boys got into fights in the hallways almost every week. There were definitely fights between kids my middle school, but usually not on school grounds, almost never during the school day, and not constantly for sure. This isn’t some low income, underfunded urban school, we’re in a small city in Indiana.
On top of that, the couple of friends my daughter had in that school vaped and smoked weed. They’re between 12 and 13. Sure, I tried a cigarette at 13, but one cigarette. I didn’t smoke weed until I was a junior in high school.
What the fuck is happening in our schools?
I just wish more parents, especially of girls, had the option to do what we did. We’re lucky that we can survive (just barely) on a single income.
You had less drastic options than to pull your kid out of school, such as girls only school. I think you jumped the gun on this one.
First of all, there is no girls-only school in this town. The only private school is a Catholic school. My daughter is an atheist with Jewish heritage.
Secondly, my daughter was so severely bullied that she actually had developed anxiety to the point that she had trouble going to a lunch party at the house of an old high school friend of mine with about 20 people in it. She was starting to get suicidal. She broke down one day and told us she literally could not go to school one more day because she was so bullied that even the bullied kids bullied her.
Thirdly, you have no fucking idea what we have gone through to try to help our daughter make it through school and not end up severely scarred without the school doing a thing.
Fourthly, I sincerely hope you never are in the position we’ve been in with a suicidal 13-year-old.
But sure, judge me for doing what’s best for my daughter, especially since she’s so mentally healthy now that she was able to tell some girls from her old school that were harassing her at the roller skating rink to fuck off. She has never had that much self-esteem. She’s also never had as many friends as she has now.
She’s in a state-funded program with really good teachers and she’s getting a great education. I must be the most abusive parent ever.
Oh with added context your decisions make sense. I feel like you shouldn’t be angry that some online stranger has no idea.
I didn’t consider that your situation involved dealing with someone suicidal. I hope it’s not hyperbole on your part.
My own position was the kid would lose out on valuable years of social development and engaging with other kids of her own age. I thought it was bullying but something that the kid was kind of dealing with in their own way but able to manage.
Since you have said that your kid has got back her courage to flip the bird on her bullies and also gotten a lot of friend, Congratulations on the win! Don’t let me or anybody tell you otherwise.
Forgive me for saying “you jumped the gun” as it was judgemental. I only said it because i did not have the info you just posted.
“homeschooling” triggered concern from my end because of some horror stories i hear about kids who are at college graduation age but stunted because of a common denominator that they were homeschooled.
I appreciate it and I apologize for snapping at you. Like two days ago someone called me abusive for the “crime” of letting my daughter be a girl scout and I’m still a little touchy.
Also, to clarify, homeschooling and online schooling are very different. Homeschooling is where the parent is the teacher. I help her learn, mostly by keeping her focused and explaining things to her when she has trouble understanding, but I am not her teacher. She has live video classes with licensed teachers every day and her assignments are graded by those same teachers who also make themselves available to kids when class is not in session. And because it’s a state school (although contracted out to a private company), it has to adhere to state education standards and there is no religious bullshit.
She does have friends who are homeschooled because she is part of a social group for kids who are not being traditionally schooled, but I think that’s usually a terrible idea. Unless you have a teaching degree, you really don’t know anything about pedagogy. It’s too early to tell how those children will do once they’re adults, but considering I have heard the same stories, I have the same concerns.
What’s really bad here in Indiana is that you don’t have to tell the state you’re taking your kid out of school or prove that your kid is getting legitimately schooled. My daughter had a friend (he recently moved away) whose parents just left him at the library all day to fend for himself and had him use Khan Academy and called it his school. I felt so sorry for that kid. At least everyone who worked at the library knew him and looked out for him.
Had a friend with a kid getting bullied badly before the start of covid. They said going online was the best thing for him, emotionally and grade-wise. Gave him a chance to break the anxiety cycle and room to breathe. I hope yours has found their way to thrive!
Hey downvoters, the world doesn’t always allow for convient or conventional solutions. Anything is better than a kid that calls it a day. Anything. Anything. Say it with me. Anything. I know of families that tried to pretend their kid’s mental health was a phase to buckle down and push through. Want to guess the end to that story?
Thank you, she is definitely thriving now.
I think part of the issue here is something I just clarified to someone else- homeschooling and online schooling are not the same. Homeschooling is where the parent acts as teacher. Online schooling is where the child works with real licensed teachers and has real graded assignments by those teachers using the same textbooks public schools use and live videoconference lessons every day.
I’m glad your friend got their kid out too. I just wish more parents could, but it usually requires some parental supervision to keep the kid on track (unless you want your kid to fail), which means one parent has to stay home and that’s not realistic for probably the vast majority of people in the U.S. My wife has a pretty good job and the cost of living here is low, so we’re able to manage it as long as we generally do without luxuries.
Every person I know who was home schooled is socially incompatible and I hope you reconsider your decision for your daughter’s sake. Public school is hell but so is the rest of life after it, you can’t shelter her forever.
And boys fight, it’s part of growing up. I don’t know how you went to a public school and fighting wasn’t common.
Again, online schooling is not the same as homeschooling and she has more friends now than when she was in public school.
Why the fuck would I reconsider my decision to help stop her from being suicidal?
Well that context is kind of important
The context of her mental health may be important, but people not knowing the difference between homeschooling and online schooling is not my fault. Homeschooling is where the parent is the teacher. Online schooling is taught by real licensed teachers. She has classes every day via live video meetings. She has the same textbooks kids in public schools have because they all have Pierson textbooks due to Pierson’s monopoly. It is a state school, not a private school so there is no tuition and it has to adhere to state education standards.
None of that is true about homeschooling.
And I’m sorry, but I am not going to admit culpability for people not knowing the difference between the two and just assuming they’re the same.
Still not developing real social skills in online classes. Social skills is by far the most important thing kids learn during their time in school, the curriculum being good is a bonus.
I know what online school is and you’re still at home. Homeschooling.
As I have already said at least twice now, she has more friends now than she did when she was in public school. She has more self-esteem now that she is no longer in public school. She is asking to go to things like events at the teen room at the library and make friends when she wasn’t even willing to join afterschool clubs about things that interested her.
Maybe read some of my other comments? I go into great detail about this.
You do not know my daughter. You do not know her situation. You do not know what you are talking about. I can see you’re trying to castigate me for being an abusive parent, so just come out and say it.
You’re very dramatic.
Damn, only a fight every week? They’re daily at my kids’ middle school. And not just the boys.
We had a bridge not too far away for our “real” fights. Strangely, the formality kept things more civil.
Though there was one time a kid got literally thrown over the side of it. Water underneath so he was fine, but still was kinda crazy.
If you have a designated fighting bridge, someone will get thrown off. It’s one of those universal rules of fighting bridges.
Just be careful that you don’t “over protect” your daughter, and she ends up going off to college, and now with vastly more freedom and a spectrum of influence needs to “keep it on the rails”. I have seen home school kids lose their shit when that time comes, as they never had to negotiate the gradual increase in both that level of freedom and influences on the way. I think of it much like the Amish Rumspringa (“rite of passage”), in that they go from a sheltered version of the world, to a much wider open one.
She has always been given a large amount of freedom and we have accepted her for whatever she wants as long as she is happy and healthy while she is in our care. We have never forced her to do anything she didn’t want to do unless it was necessary (getting a vaccine for example). The only restrictions we have on her is that she has to get up for school on time, she has to finish all of her school work, and she has to do at least one extracurricular activity of her choice. Initially that was girl scouts, then she chose drum lessons, and now, after a couple of years, she just started drawing lessons.
And in terms of social things, we have also been very open with her. When she was younger, we made sure she knew about birth control and STDs pretty much as soon as she asked where babies came from. It turned out to be less of an issue since she’s only interested in girls, but we want her to know she can choose to have sex if she does it safely. We’ve also been extremely honest with her about drugs, about how there are addictive kinds like heroin and non-addictive kinds like weed and that the drug war is bullshit and that she is hearing a lot of propaganda. In fact, now that I can oversee her health classes (and social studies classes) I can directly say, “this is not true. They are lying to you.” That’s also a great asset when it comes to social studies. She’s covering modern conflict in the middle east right now and I have been able to talk about things like American imperialism and Israeli apartheid (and now genocide) when the texts have been lacking- although they have been surprisingly good overall, if a little dated. And I doubt she would have even been covering that topic at all in her public middle school.
Sounds like you are doing a great job! Sorry my post was rather, judgy? I have just seen a good number of home school kids that either learn next to nothing useful, or worse, religious indoctrination with a splash of useless whitewashing of the world. It sounds like your daughter should turn out just fine, and I wish more people used home school as you have, to teach real topics in a way public school cannot without the Karen’s ruining everything.
No no, it didn’t seem judgy at all. I just wanted to clarify.
Trust me, compared to the guy who is claiming it’s my daughter’s fault for being bullied because “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree,” you’re calling her a straight A student and the most popular kid in school.
Being a parent is hardest when you’re doing it right. Keep it up!
I really think that tate is an imbecil, and his fanbase are just being manipulated.
It is sad to see that boys think that this idiot is someone who deserve attention.
They equate money with competence ignoring the fact that a lot of his money was illegally made.
Money == sex.
As long as women keep throwing themselves at people like Andrew Tate, men are going to look up to him.
He’s a human trafficker and a rapist. The women in his videos don’t have a choice but to do what he says.
You’re not wrong. But it shifts the blame to women when the onus should be on men to to be responsible.
It’s not about being “responsible.” Andrew Tate isn’t “responsible” and women throw themselves at him.
It’s about money. Andrew Tate has a lot of it, so he gets a lot of sex.
It’s what encourages men to be as shitty as possible in order to make as much money as possible.
I don’t feel like explaining. It’s capitalism. Patriarchy serves capitalism.
Umm, then why do women prefer to have sex with wealthy men over regular ones?
How Patriarchy and Capitalism Combine to Aggravate the Oppression of Women. If people had the time to read more, a lot of these problems would go away.
So Andrew Tate is a human trafficker scum of the earth, and we are trying to combat his message. That’s alright, I agree, he’s not a disease but a symptom.
Tate is taking an existing problem, which is the fact that young boys feel left out by society at large with feminism being mainstream. Don’t get me wrong, go and empower women, but when boys have “a growing sense that somehow they must be mistreated and hated because they are boys and men” and “some can feel they are being stereotyped, or blamed for others’ actions”, and things like “My son is reluctant to go to school due to bullying by a group of girls, he feels that there is a big power difference in schools, where boys are always punished, not listened to, and not believed.” happen, then that’s a problem separate from the problems that feminism wants to solve.
Telling boys to help solve women’s issues in response to them telling you they have problems of their own is what’s causing this. And it’s either you listening to them, or it’s going to be people like Tate or Trump.
Don’t get me wrong, go and empower women, but when boys have “a growing sense that somehow they must be mistreated and hated because they are boys and men” and “some can feel they are being stereotyped, or blamed for others’ actions”, and things like “My son is reluctant to go to school due to bullying by a group of girls, he feels that there is a big power difference in schools, where boys are always punished, not listened to, and not believed.” happen, then that’s a problem separate from the problems that feminism wants to solve.
The Me Too movement opened a lot of eyes to just how widespread sexual violence against women is. And how women see men, justifiably, as threats until proven otherwise.
But as the person who is perceived as a threat and isn’t, that doesn’t feel good. Thinking that my gender makes me a horrible scary monster would definitely fuck a boy up.
The Me Too movement opened a lot of eyes to just how widespread sexual violence against women is. And how women see men, justifiably, as threats until proven otherwise.
But there is another truth not mentioned: Males who were victims of sexual violence and rightfully thought the MeToo movement would help bring that to light as well were instead ridiculed and thrown out. Male victims of both male and female sexual violence are still not heard, which should have been part of the movement’s focus. The recent reminder post about the man who tried to found a shelter for male victims but ended up broke and his efforts ignored and eventually disbanded should have been a strong ally for the movement, so the push for feminism rings somewhat hollow for those victims, even as they do support the message presented, but will not benefit from the movement’s successes.
I remember reading a post once that pondered on why there are so many gentle giants, why a lot of naturally tall muscular men seem so chill.
A gentle giant on the chain responded “it’s because you’re taught from a very young age that if you pop off and lose it there’s a really good chance you’re going to kill someone”
I think men need to understand they are threats, in general it’s not their fault they’re threats, in general nobody is really expecting them to go ape on anyone, but ultimately men are threats.
The problem isn’t new at all either. Someone on the right, just figured out how to create the incel culture and weaponize it. It’s sexism all the way down on both sides when there shouldn’t be sides at all. It’s the culmination of the social construct known as gender.
The problem is not just that someone on the right talks to men. The problem is, nobody on the “left” does. Tell me, what is the “left’s” ideal of a happy and successful man?
Freedom from work
Men would have time to make friends, cultivate hobbies, and meet girls if they weren’t working multiple jobs with odd hours or taking as much overtime as they can.
Liberals don’t want to talk about reducing the amount of work men have to do to keep up, though. They only want women to work more!
Yeah, may the almighty line keep going up.
But that’s beside the point, work is one side of it, my point is that there is no “ideal man” picture out there, nothing to aspire to. The ideal male identity is only described in context of how they treat women. Which is important sure, being kind to everyone, but still, what makes a man these days?
Kids are asking these questions, looking for role models, and all they see answering is Tate. Everyone else in the mainstream just tells them that their ideal is “not to be a rapist”.
Why don’t boys look up to their fathers? I’ll tell you! It’s because daddy is always at work.
Girls have the same problem with their mothers also working, but the schooling system has actually (partially) solved the problem. Teaching, especially pre-K, is dominated by women. Even if class sizes are too large for any one female teacher to fulfill the role of a model they still have a huge field to choose from and I think that helps a lot. We need men to become teachers if we aren’t going to liberate men from work.
I get your point. I am not saying I didn’t cry a bit the first time I actually listened to Cats In The Cradle’s lyrics. Or the other times.
Also, I’d rather have my kid have their own role model, not to have to share a government issued one with 30 other kids. Fuck.
In that case, men need to work less so we don’t have to use pre/elementary/middle/high schools to replace the parental figure.
Also maybe abolish the nuclear family and go back the premodern gens (i.e. extended family community) so that boys have lots of men in their family to look up to. Even if they don’t have a dad they might have an uncle, grandpa, or one of their 20 older cousins to look up to.
Women hate it when men have anything to do with young children. Try being a dad and taking your own child to the park in this country. There’s a good chance you’ll have to prove which child is yours to a cop, because parenting while male isn’t acceptable behavior. And you want a man to accept the liability of existing near 30 children that aren’t his, possibly without one of his own around? That’s just asking to get SWATed.
No, society hates it when men have anything to do with young children and we are products of that society. Women didn’t make caring for young children into “women’s work”, society did that. Women didn’t make men having a life outside of work unacceptable, society did that.
Don’t blame women for what is a societal problem. That’s incredibly reactionary.
Although, I’m skeptical that male kindergarten teachers get SWATed all that often at school 🙄
Bingo. Well said
I see feminism as a logical first step towards true egalitarianism. As in: the patriarchy is/was a real thing, and women are/were impacted. Modern feminism is in some ways an over correction (but as a movement is completely justified). Hopefully future societies will bring the needle closer to even/fair/just than ever, and we are currently witnessing temporary (but significant) backlashes
Not the person downvoting, but my comment was mostly about that boys and men do experience their own problems, and they are not being listened to. I am specifically saying “feminism is all good, but has nothing to do with this, and does not even aim to solve this”.
You then went, “well yeah, but first feminism before we get there”. It’s like as if there was a piece about feminism and someone went, “First we have to solve climate change, then we can talk about women’s issues!”. The problem is that men are getting left behind. Not with rights or visibility or anything like that. It’s more about having a voice, ideals and support.
The point is, this is not about feminism. Feminism is not a be all end all answer. And people keep pretending it is.
Feminism is not the end all be all is the core of my point as well.
I referred to the current backlash of boys seeking people like tate as a symptom of ongoing progress towards a more egalitarian future.
The whole thing is that this is not about feminism in any way. Viewing these boys’ problems only through a lens of “how does this relate to feminism” is the problem. These boys’ problems are not about feminism. This is not about women or women’s issues.
The reason it becomes that is that both the right, which only listens to them to exploit them, and the left, which refuses to listen to them at all, says that their problems are about women.
Men and men’s issues exist outside of the context of feminism as well.
Right! And it would be great to arrive at a societal level where we address everyone’s needs!
Due to obvious reasons, the challenges of feminism are center stage currently.
I’m talking about decades long societal progress, where we arrive at a place where everyone is getting their needs met. We aren’t advanced enough in our education or discourse or healthcare to provide that to everyone at once.
What I’m hearing from you is that men are a desirable sacrifice on the altar of equality.
You’re risking serious social stability problems by justifying the ignoring of men’s issues. There can be no equality as long as the problems of one sex are more important than the problems of the other.
Absolutely untrue. You are assuming my opinion, when I’m stating my observation.
I’m not ignoring men’s issues, or suggesting that is good to do. In fact, I’m saying/agreeing it’s absolutely true that men are currently being forgotten.
I’m saying humanity is not unified. Social respect is a system in hysteresis. A pendulum swinging. There is no eternal agenda, but hopefully a trend towards a healthy center. Previously, women and minorities were forgotten. Now, in a different way (and not surpassing the injustice.of the past, but still critically Important), men are not being discussed to a sufficient level.
I hope the future frees us of this. I am discussing decades past. And decades future
“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,”
The same could be said about “communism” and “socialism”. The words have been turned dirty, such that people shy away from what is objectively a good thing when done honestly and to the letter of the principle.
Communism kind-of smeared itself. Everywhere where communism has been tried on a national scale, it has become authoritarianism.
Maybe it would be a good thing if done to the letter of the principle, but just like Libertarianism or Anarchism, it seems to be incompatible with human nature, at least so far.
But, socialism isn’t even a foreign idea. A lot of US institutions are socialist. The mail delivery is done by an arm of the government. Streets are paved by the government. Firefighters are government employees. The water delivered to your house is almost certainly by a government-run entity. People retiring without having saved enough are taken care of by the government. There’s medicare and medicaid.
A full capitalist system would have nothing done by the government that could be done by a business. No FDA, Pinkertons instead of Police, most army functions handed over to private contractors, every road privately owned and maintained, etc.
To be fair, the term “feminist” was highjacked by the radical feminist movement. They very much do not believe in equality, their motto is “kill all men”
I think it’s easy to see why that would turn people away. Hence why I describe myself as an equalizer, not a feminist.
comments like this are what’s hijacking it.
Fuckin lmao, you are so full of shit. You know damn well you’ve seen so many Tumblr posts, tshirts, and other bullshit that says the same things. “Kill all men” “All men are evil” “Low value men”
I guarantee you’ve seen all of that, it’s not at all uncommon. You choose to ignore it because you don’t like it. But that’s not how the world works. Other people, surprise surprise, don’t want to be associated with a movement calling for their death.
Enjoy your narrative, but welcome to the real world
I haven’t. And now I believe you even less and think you are intentionally spreading rumors or lies because you have an agenda.
i did see the low value men used; tbh i see men are trash more but that might be because of the places i stick around online
I think again that was one that was actually hijacked by the right wing. There is far more fearmongering about hardcore feminists than there are hardcore feminists.
While your second statement is true, there are still far too many extremists. I find it very difficult to believe that all the hatred I viewed from feminists on Tumblr and r/FemaleDatingStrategy and many other sources(like my ex who fell into that stuff) were right wingers. Just like one incel is too many(and you don’t hear people claiming incels don’t exist), one person calling for the death or enslavement of half the planet is too many.
Somebody’s mad they can’t get laid whenever they want.
Fwiw, I haven’t met a single real person who espouses the viewpoint you described. I’m not saying they don’t exist. I’m saying that until evidence is presented otherwise I doubt there are as many as you think there are.
Assuming you are male, it makes sense that you wouldn’t have met many, as they presumably take steps to avoid interacting with men. The only person like that I’ve talked to IRL would be one of my exes, and her friend group. She went off the rails after we broke up.
This is most likely an effect of recency bias for you which is unfortunate.
do you think it makes sense to distinguish between the kind of radical feminism you’re talking about, and the dry academic stuff that’s also called radical feminism by the people who are engaged in it at least?
it’s tricky, i can’t deny there aren’t spaces which are predominantly women where a bunch of unfair or negative stuff about men is said.
thing is, radical, which in math is another term for getting the ‘root’ of something, like a square root, and also means like ‘fundamental’ does have more than one meaning. when you use it, that’s one use of the word which makes sense, another which is the one i first learned and the places i go to use to describe themselves is rather dry academic, philosophical, and artsy (artsy in the way which is confusing as heck to me) and they are also radical.
so often i am confused because it’s not as though when you use the word you’re making anything up. other commenters will likely treat you like you invented that use of the word, people always police language. it’d be way nicer if we could understand each other better i really think you and i and the commenters which probably gave you a downvote all have way more in common than not.
TBH I’ve never heard of any other type of radical feminism, I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying radical feminists were the original feminists?
no i don’t think they were “the original”, where i see it now, they are in academic institutions (like the philosophy dept at my school, a few in women’s studies) and publications (here’s one from radical philosophy, she wrote for the london review of books which i really like and i thought the title was interesting, i thought it was a good piece that i’ll have to revisit at some point.
you’ll note there isn’t really any provocative language. you mentioned female dating strategy, that’s not a pleasant place to be. i browsed it a bit then noped out when all the acronyms started to come out, i checked the sidebar and thought yeah this is not a place which wants me…
Radical feminism is 4th or 5th wave feminism.
So much misinformation.
My remedy to the poisoning of those words is to refer to then as “economic democracy,” and just state communist/socialist policy without the buzz words.
Depends, I was chatting with someone without using any charged terminology, then he blurted out “but that’s socialism!!”
Those who aren’t ignorant about actual socialist policies that can feasibly and easily be implemented in a modern society and yet still loathe them truly bewilder me. And I’m not talking about rich folks or power brokers, just normal, working class people. The indoctrination over the last century has been quite effective.
Yeah I was a little bit speechless with that, it was one of those situations where all the right things to say came much later.
Granted, Lemmy is a relatively safe place to do it, but bold move, walking out into public and describing Communism as “objectively good”.
I would say lemmygrad is the only safe place to do this
It is a wonderfully good idea. Except for one tiny, insignificant variable. Humans. Humans ruin it every time.
Communism is a very decent idea. It’s the transition to it that always tends to be spoiled by incumbant powers. Writers of Communist theory recognised this somewhat, and their solution was to have a violent revolution that would hopefully come end with the new system they devised. Now, however, the word is basically lost - there are/have been too many “Communist” countries that don’t really operate in that manner, with too many people that have suffered under that name.
Socialism doesn’t have quite the same level of stigma, but still a good deal. However, when you think about it, a significant portion of any government is “Socialist” - we pay taxes, our taxes fund roads, schools and various other social services. Socialism, or more specifically socialist policy, is that which benefits society as a whole rather than any specific group. When you see it like that, it’s hard to paint it as a bad thing, not without being completely selfish that you or your group aren’t getting an exclusive benefit.
People refuse to look at things with their core and correct definitions. They always bring their baggage along. Or, they twist it into their own framing for their own point of view.
It’s such a bummer.
give it 50 years and the arms race of language will have its own sub arms race
you’ll coin a politically charged term, someone will coin an antonym, the original will shift to change the subject, the antonym will change to match the new, someone will point out the process and both sides will deny its happening
So much strife comes from bickering over the definitions of words.
It would be helpful if people knew the definitions and context of words. Maybe some type of education could help.
Double plus ungood.
Every one of these words was boogeymanned as a deliberate political move
Funnily, Capitalism could work too but I don’t expect billionaires to be honest or have any principles apart from hoarding for themselves.
I mean you could also say that Capitalism is a dirty word in some circles. And yet, it addresses many of the aspects of trade, which are needed through all societal systems.
Trade existed before capitalism.
You’re proposing Mercantilism or Feudalism as alternatives?
Kind of like Critical Race Theory. If properly understood and applied, people would benefit from the knowledge and empathy.
I bought the actual book because it was on sale and because I thought it would be hilarious to put out on my coffee table for when my conservative dad came to visit my house. I also figured I’d try to read it, because I should be informed about what it is so that I can argue for it, right?
Holy shit, it’s a lot of dense legal theory. I knew it was graduate material, but the book is a collection some of the most complex ideas, studies, and legal theory that I’ve ever read. I’m not going to lie that I won’t even make it a third of the way through it.
Anyone who argues that CRT is being taught in elementary schools and is being used to brainwash children hasn’t seen how high-level the material actually is and has no idea what they’re talking about.
In reality, the material is not that controversial. What I have read of it has been quite unbiased.
We need to stop teaching the children nuclear physics.
Pretty much exactly the same, except CRT got knocked down before it even had established itself as a positive thing.
It was already established. It’s just a theoretical framework in various social studies. It was deliberately bastardized by the right as they were seeking something to hate. It wasn’t even in the public consciousness, just something academics used and that get taught in some higher ed classes. It’s a very useful framework but it’s not something that you’d actually teach a kid.
It was an academic term for a relatively short period, it was never established in common language - not in the same way that socialism and communism were.
Yes, unsurprisingly, a term that’s been around for 20 or 30 years is less pervasive than a couple that have been around for over 100.
I know very little about CRT beyond some very general idea so idk if there’s a point to call it that specifically, but the naming choice is so bad that the first time I read it I assumed it’s some nazi thing and had 0 doubt about it.
… well, yeah… but symptoms can kill you, too.
Underrated comment.
It’s got 105 upvotes, how is it underrated?
It did not have 105 when I made that comment. lol
Understood 👍
Any teachers here that want to share their stories - like does this sound exaggerated or more realistic do you think?
How about 5th graders that are hard at work using YouTube pickup artist techniques to start ‘dating’ girls. It is the bane of the playground and the source of many tears. Their parents didn’t seem to care.
The parents probably were the ones watching it to begin with.:-P
As a (formerly young) man myself, I can say with experience that boys are gullible. If something just had a veneer of plausibility, then that was good enough for me!
Still, this hit hard, because it’s so true:
He says [about boys]: “It’s not showing that emotional weakness. It’s also the expectation to always be right. Like you are not able to show that you can fail; that there’s more shame in doing something and making a mistake than there is just sort of sitting it out or dropping out.”
He stresses that many of the men he deals with have positive attitudes to women and feminism, but he says some can feel they are being stereotyped, or blamed for others’ actions.
I faced a lot of pressure to be “tough” and “perfect” (I’m not sure where that pressure came from. My parents weren’t the problem). I also misunderstood that feminism only means fairness and equality. “Fortunately”, I was trying to control an anger management issue, and I only recently realized that the experience had the side effect of teaching me that imperfections are normal and nothing to be ashamed of. Being fair was, well, only fair, so although I didn’t notice it, I never had an issue with basic feminism. I didn’t know much about it, but I wasn’t against it, and recognized that guys who were proudly anti-feminist were almost always jerks that I didn’t want to emulate.
If you read online about current discussions regarding nature VS nurture, people are actually influenced more by a combination of peer pressure and media/cultural influence than their parents.
Sadly this also means that it’s unlikely that, as a parent, you have much of a chance to work against those influences.
I think a lot of it comes from schools, and in particular physical education and competitive sports. There is nothing wrong with competitive sports but the attitudes around it in schools can be so toxic, and in particular it can be used to create hierarchies. The idea of being good at sports and that being masculine was something I certainly experienced a lot at school. Also people who weren’t as academic but thrived in sports were lauded.
My school had various sports teams and clubs, and fuck all academic activities. Sports aren’t toxic but the attitudes around them can be, and particularly adults who feed in toxic attitudes and values around it.
He is a bad response to a real problem, as is the toxic misandrist movement that seems to pull people away from productive feminism these days.
But as long as reactions to these extreme positions keep us from discussing the underlying problems or reasonable solutions to them, we’ll never find any real solutions.
What “real problem” is he a response to?
Boys feeling they don’t have a voice and people are not listening to them? It’s right there in the article
Personally this is why I think people should be amplifying the messages of worker rights as much as possible. Improving worker rights in this country would make so many people feel heard including many young men.
Or, we could not hijack it and actually focus on making sure young men are heard
Can you give a more concrete example what, in your opinion, gives them a feeling to not have a voice or to not be heared (on comparison to other groups)?
Boys are graduating high school less, going to college less, and graduating college less. They are also surrounded by groups supporting and helping women do all of this, that don’t help them at all. Questioning any of this is essentially forbidden, is it really surprising some of those kids hate feminists?
Surrounded by groups supporting and helping women do all this
In what kind of reality are you living? Manosphere-dimension?
Men are btw not failing at university at all. The number of men successfully attending higher education continued to grow over the last centuries and it still does, with no significant change in rate.
It’s just that women’s successful attendance grows at a faster rate in the last ~10 years. And the reason isn’t that you have a handful of programs teaching girls for a few days “how to code”. It’s that there are simply more women who believe that higher education is worth it.
More of them decide to go to university lately. If you want men to also decide more often that higher education is worth it, instead of blaming feminism, you should encourage that more boys and men turn their backs on the idea that it’s unmanly to do your homework and learn.
If you don’t want to parent your own son, there is someone out there willing to do it for you. They will not do a good job.
And yet, it’s not like anyone’s child will grow in a bubble decoupled from society; people like Tate can influence even “parented” young men due to the disproportionate amount of reach they have. And it’s not like they would know better, they are kids after all.
damn, good way to put it
This is a really great point, but notably in this article there’s a guy trying to “do it for you” with at least good intentions telling young men about feminism.
IMO, he’s doing a pretty terrible job of it though. You’re not going to reach tate followers by telling them about feminism.
Most things come down to people don’t want to unlearn things. Con-men like Tate pick up on that empty void for young men since there is much guidance and lead them down the wrong path. It isn’t the end of the world to learn the way you’re brought up thinking may have been bad or harmful, and do better in the future.
Lack of actually good and well-known male role models leads to scum filling the vacuum. Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame. Doesn’t look like it’s gonna fix itself anytime soon though.
Role models
Boys traditionally are taught from a very young age that uncompromising, and ‘unfeeling’ toxic males are what we need to look up to. So that’s what they gravitate towards. It’s a whole other discussion about unburdening and unpacking toxic views in men that is the core issue actually at play.
Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame.
Women pushing for equal rights isn’t to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It’s not girls’ fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.
Doesn’t look like it’s gonna fix itself anytime soon though.
Social inequality is never going to fix itself. There isn’t a single issue in the world that is going to just fix itself.
Damn me for wanting the right to my body in an anti abortion state.
You forgot Peterson in this Unholy Trinity of Toxic Masculinity
Women pushing for equal rights isn’t to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It’s not girls’ fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.
Feminism when women have issues in society: “Men, you must fix this! Or else you are an evil person!”
Feminism when men have issues in society: “Ew, sort your own shit out, loser males”
Gee, I wonder why fewer men are identifying as feminists nowadays
Feminism when women have issues in society: “Men, you must fix this! Or else you are an evil person!”
Feminism isn’t women asking men to fix their problems. It’s asking men to simply treat them the same so they can fix their own problems. And it’s not even fully just men, but the patriarchy which if you don’t know the difference then you need to figure that out before you start making broad sweeping generalizations of feminism.
Feminism when men have issues in society: "Ew, sort your own shit out, loser males
Except feminism is also about fixing male problems. Every single problem men face would be fixed if we got equal rights. For example one of those most prevelant problems that men face is discrimination in family court. Men almost always get screwed when it comes to parental rights. This stems from the old patriarchal view that men should be working and women taking care of the children. When divorce was first legalized courts gave the women custody of the children so men could be free to be men with out the burden of children. Now, men have grown and are starting to realize they want to be fathers. They want families. But due to old patriarchal ideals and ingrained ‘traditions’, often not even conscious decisions, men get screwed when it comes to parenting rights.
This reaches across all feminist ideals. Men just dont want to hear it.
That’s not what they said. You didn’t just simplify it by changing the words, you changed the words.
I’m a feminist. And a single father to a future man. Poster is right. I put energy into teaching my son how to elevate women. I also teach him self worth, healthy masculinity, and loving himself.
You just hate women. There’s no other reason to put energy into posts like this. If it’s because you’re sad and lonely and feel left behind, I’m sorry. I’d be happy to talk to you about it.
I don’t hate women, but I dislike feminists. And I get really angry when feminists try to claim a monopoly on morality. I guess you could say it triggers me. Feminists don’t care about men’s issues. At best they only give lip service.
There’s this popular sense of “if you care about making society better, you’re a feminist”. But feminism is solely concerned with making women’s position better. Which, due to how discriminated against women have been, comes out to much the same thing most of the time. But not ALL of the time, and when there’s a gap between “what’s good for women” and “what’s good for society”, there’s nothing filling that gap. No group to turn to. Any time anyone tries they get co-opted or shut down by feminists, or they tap into right-wing misogyny to completely defy feminism.
Yeah, that angers me. Men trying to better themselves are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
So you think the feminist you replied to doesn’t care about men’s issues?
The people you’re referring to aren’t feminists. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that no one who’s never encountered a piece of feminist theory isn’t one. I mean, how could they be?
It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible, or a star wars fan who’s only ever seen start Trek, or whatever.
I understand how you can associate the kind of shrieking misandry you often come across as feminism, since the kindd of people (usually women) who are all about this are very angry and very vocal.
Actual feminists - the ones seeking to gain a more cogent understanding of the dynamics of gender and out of that create a more suitable world, don’t sound like they. That wave crashed and broke on the shore. Sure there are people who call themselves feminists who want nothing more than to replace patriarchy with matriarchy but they’re rarely the ones doing any actual work towards creating better gender relations.
I’ll give you a tipe that will help you spot the difference pretty quickly: do they ever mention men, at all, in a way that isn’t dismissive or angry?
If they don’t, then chances are they’ve never read anything about feminism that they didn’t see online. I think most of the ones that have read a book before would agree with you that it’s important that men have a voice, and many of them are sounding the same alarms you’re sounding.
When feminism talks about patriarchy they’re not talking about emasculating men - just that it’s high time tried looking at alternatives to power structures that only benefit a very small percentage of people at the expense of everyone else.
Patriarchy is men fighting tooth and nail when we don’t have to. It’s being told by society to shut up and get on with it. That your humanity makes you weak.
I’m sure if you could approach the theory with an open mind you’d be shocked at how much of it you agree with. Fucked if I know how you would make it past the refuse pile of shrieking blue haired misandrists though.
As a man, any ideology which stands against toxic masculinity or putting men in cognitive boxes helps men. Tearing down traditional gender roles absolutely fits that description imo.
I have never felt stuck between a rock and a hard place. In fact, the ethics of the question could not be more obvious to me. Feminism calls on me(n) to be authentic and to deny precisely the kind of existential bad faith which puts men into boxes. If you want to be in a box, that’s on you. If you want to project that onto others, that’s toxic.
While feminism is far from perfect, especially smaller circles that want to have unfair divorce rights for women or whatever, people like Andrew Tate are both the problem (as in, spreading the classic incel rhetoric) and the symptom (why young adults and teens follow people like him).
Though not only him, but also a lot of right-wing youtube channels are pushing false narratives in order to get outrage clicks and to radicalize people against things like feminism. You have youtube videos that say how “feminism is trying to ruin men” or “crazy feminists want to remove sexy girls from video games” or “feminists don’t care about men”, and given the amount of right-wing youtube videos that get hundreds of thousands and not millions of views, a lot of people do believe it. In reality, however, men do have issues and feminists are acknowledging them and are trying to do something about it (for example, toxic masculinity being responsible for male loneliness for instance), but also things like patriarchy, discrimination and so on.
Hating feminism and/or women isn’t going to solve male loneliness. Actual societal-level change, something that feminists are striving for, is the answer.
