I mean, I’m still voting for Biden over any of the Nazis on the red team, but the whole funding-a-genocide-on-gaza thing is going to make it a pretty unenthused vote.
I really wish I could vote for someone on a basis other than lesser evil.
I got to vote for Bernie Sanders twice. That was the only time I’ve voted for a politician I fully support, as opposed to voting for not-the-republican.
I really wish I could vote for someone on a basis other than lesser evil.
Down-ballot exists! That’s where I’m most enthusiastic about voting. There might be some places where it’s just lesser evil option in some down-ballots, unfortunately, but you’re more likely to have a representative that represents voters within the down-ballot which makes lesser evil choice less likely.
Exactly. The game sucks, but it exists and one must play to win. The other team has been remarkably successful at working every lever to their advantage for half a century now.
It would be nice if our team wasn’t treating the “game” as a friendly co-op match.
During a vs match lmao
Down-ballot exists!
And has the added benefit of a vastly lower vote count so your vote matters much more. The general election for my state rep got like 4,000 votes. And it was a blowout as expected, so really it was decided in the primary where there were a little over 2,000. One of the other races was literally decided by a single vote!
Hey, I’m gonna be honest: his enormous about-face of political ideology (“I no longer identify as a progressive”, when, you know, him being a progressive before was a big part of why he got elected) and obvious personality changes make me extremely suspicious that his stroke permanently affected his brain in some pretty serious ways.
That’s not a derogatory comment. That’s just an observation, and strokes can absolutely have that effect on someone.
Regardless of Fetterman’s ideology or any stated or perceived shift, he’s a pragmatist and straight-shooter above everything else. He was that way long before the stroke. The fact that a lifetime grifter and department store rapist with 91 felony indictment counts has a good chance of winning the election is absurd. A bag of rocks running against Trump should win. Biden and the Democrats are in a very weak position, but it’s clear that Biden is the chosen candidate. It makes no sense at this point to have Democrats amplifying GOP talking points, unless they’re in any position of power with the DNC to change what is inevitable right now with the Democratic nomination.
I’m in PA and I doubt his progressiveness got him elected. Anyone with a D after their name carries Philly and Pittsburgh by default. Fetterman’s no nonsense approach and the fact that the working class can relate to him got votes in Pennsyltuckey, a segment the Democrats have been losing over the years. Democrats should be in a lab right now trying to figure out how to clone Fetterman.
I’m sure I’ll be labeled a Fetterman fan boy, but I’m a 50-something 30+ year Democrat that has seen Democrats do a really good job at losing elections and letting the GOP walk all over them. Fetterman no doubt has a cult-like following, but the DNC powers that be should be examining why that is.
he’s a pragmatist and straight-shooter
Is he? This doesn’t look like someone particularly concerned with pragmatism to me.
makes no sense at this point to have Democrats amplifying GOP talking points, unless they’re in any position of power with the DNC to change what is inevitable right now with the Democratic nomination.
That’s a bunch of horse shit. Self criticism is the only thing keeping Democrats from becoming a clone of the GOP.
Anyone telling me I can’t participate in discourse involving totally valid criticisms about any politician can go kick rocks.
Also, how is discussing his drastic turn towards conservative politics “amplifying GOP talking points”?
Democrats should be in a lab right now trying to figure out how to clone Fetterman.
Ahh yeah, America surely needs more brain damages politicians advocating for genocide…
50-something 30+ year Democrat that has seen Democrats do a really good job at losing elections and letting the GOP walk all over them.
Maybe because your generations idea of a progressive is John Fetterman? Maybe because Democrats have just become the GOP from the 90s, and thats not typically what actual progressives want?
has a cult-like following, but the DNC powers that be should be examining why that is.
I’m not sure if that’s still true. Fetterman had a cult like following because he primarily ran on labour, something he was actually progressive about. I don’t think it’s super common to be progressive on labour but an insane reactionary when if comes to everything else.
Self criticism is the only thing keeping Democrats from becoming a clone of the GOP.
Well, it also helps the Democrats don’t have a criminal insurrectionist leading the party.
Anyone telling me I can’t participate in discourse involving totally valid criticisms about any politician can go kick rocks.
You can do whatever you want. What TV channels are interviewing you this week?
Also, how is discussing his drastic turn towards conservative politics “amplifying GOP talking points”?
I’m referring to what Fetterman was criticizing, not what the OP or others here discuss about Fetterman or Biden.
Ahh yeah, America surely needs more brain damages politicians advocating for genocide…
Oh, Gaza. Right. I am so sick of hearing about “genocide”. It’s BS. Despite what Israel has done over the decades, Hamas is responsible for this. They launched an offensive that had no clear objectives (like autonomy) other than killing Israelis, and specifically civilians. Now that they’re getting their ass handed to them, which was inevitable, losing a poorly-conceived offensive is coined “genocide”. Hamas thanks you.
50-something 30+ year Democrat that has seen Democrats do a really good job at losing elections and letting the GOP walk all over them.
Maybe because your generations idea of a progressive is John Fetterman? Maybe because Democrats have just become the GOP from the 90s, and thats not typically what actual progressives want?
John Fetterman beat two other well-pedigreed Democratic Senate nomination candidates, won an election over a very publicly popular GOP candidate, and took the seat of Republican Pat Toomey. While this is one data point that you cite, it doesn’t support that “my generation’s” idea of progressive is losing elections. If a lack of “sufficiently progressive” candidates is losing elections for Democrats due to progressives not voting for Democrats, those progressives are shooting themselves in the foot as the only what to get more left-leaning Democrats is to actually win elections.
Well, it also helps the Democrats don’t have a criminal insurrectionist leading the party.
Ahh, so we adopt the same ideologies as them. Surely equating valid criticism as aiding the enemy will lead to a better democratic candidate…
This is exactly how the GOP fell to a fascist, by making criticism within the party political suicide.
You can do whatever you want.
Make you kick rocks? I mean I guess, but I’m going to need an address?
What TV channels are interviewing you this week?
Like 10-12. I didn’t think it was anything special, but apparently being your mom’s 1000th customer is pretty big news. I didn’t even know prostitution was such a celebrated custom up north!
what Fetterman was criticizing
Palestinians right to existence?
am so sick of hearing about “genocide”. It’s BS. Despite what Israel has done over the decades, Hamas is responsible for this.
What would you call it? At what point do war crimes turn into genocide?
They launched an offensive that had no clear objectives (like autonomy) other than killing Israelis, and specifically civilians.
And that is bad… correct? Doesn’t that imply that killing civilians is inappropriate? Hmm it’s almost like it’s a war crime or something?
So if killing 700 civilians is bad, what is killing 25k?
Now that they’re getting their ass handed to them
Well they are mostly killing women and children, so I guess that makes it easier?
losing a poorly-conceived offensive is coined “genocide”
It’s mostly the targeting of civilian population, the collective punishment, the targeting of key civilian infrastructure, the targeting of international journalists and aid workers, the targeting of hospitals, and the summary executions.
Then there’s the fact that Hamas only had 25k members and they’ve already killed well over 25k people, most of which have been women and children. So either Hamas was primarily made up of women and children…or the idfs not really discriminating against who they are killing.
candidates is losing elections for Democrats due to progressives not voting for Democrats, those progressives are shooting themselves in the foot as the only what to get more left-leaning Democrats is to actually win elections.
You can’t vote for someone if they aren’t even an option? Democrats win when we can actually get young people excited to vote. It’s the whole reason Fetterman won in the first place.
It’s not a battle between having just a better candidate than the Republicans, it’s about getting a candidate that’s progressive enough to get young people to the booths.
self criticism is the only thing keeping democrats from becoming a clone of the GOP
Sometimes I wonder if people on this platform were born yesterday.
What in flying fuck are you smoking. What policies or legislation overlaps between these two? One is ending school lunches for starving children and the other is trying to push progressive policies. Why, oh why, do you guys keep repeating this insane, asinine, talking point like it’s gospel. Please, for all the love that is holy, tell us where the legislature of the Democrats mirrors the GOP in Any. Fucking. Form.
I await with bated breath.
What policies or legislation overlaps between these two?
Off the top of my head, the Patriot act, the Iraq war resolution, DMCA, SOPA, KOPA, support for israel’s genocide, Japanese American interment in WW2, and the Gulf of tomkin resolution. Only some of the most dangerous policies in this nations history, no big whoop.
I like that we have to go back in time long before the southern strategy as if the Dems are a monolithic body. Just from a cursory first glance on Patriot act:
the Act passed the House by a vote of 357–66, with Democrats comprising the overwhelming majority of “no”-votes.
I won’t argue on SOPA because that is indeed contentious, but going back in time like that is really disingenuous.
I answered your question accurately. Instead of moving the goalposts after the fact, maybe you should ask a different question to begin with.
No goalposts were moved. You lied. Quick ten second Google search proved you wrong. You equivocated between the two as if they are both lock step voting the same on all legislation. Not only that, but you had to go back to W W 2 , long before the southern strategy was effected to back your claim.
What in flying fuck are you smoking. What policies or legislation overlaps between these two? One is ending school lunches for starving children and the other is trying to push progressive policies
I didn’t say don’t vote for them… What do you think keeps Democrats sliding further and further right? It’s not the leadership, it’s their constituents screaming at them when they step out of line.
The reason the GOP has become hostage to someone like Trump and the freedom caucus is because people within their own aren’t allowed to criticize them.
I’ve recently come to the conclusion Biden shouldn’t run again. There’s no two ways about it. Guy is too old. (Trump is too, but maggats won’t care.)
If Biden left after one term, he would be remembered as a great president. If he loses to Trump, he will be that senile asshole who helped to destroy US democracy because he couldn’t see what everyone else could.
There’s plenty of younger Democrats. Any one of them could campaign circles around Trump.
Unfortunately, he decided to run whether or not we think he “should”. What are we supposed to do? We had better vote and not let apathy get the best of us.
There’s still time for him to change his mind though. Everyone is pretending this is all set in stone. This fatalism is so weird.
I mean, what’s his point we should never bitch about it when biting the shit we don’t like? I have a novel idea, maybe he should start focusing on public approval instead of you demanding that the public blindly approve of everything he does.
Yeah, I’m going to vote for him because the alternative is a bad fucking idea.
Is criticism isn’t out of left field He’s earned this shit. It’s not that he’s an irredivable president, but a significant amount of his campaign is not being Trump. And still we hope all the hell that that’s enough.
This is the guy (whom I proudly voted for) who was getting defensive because people didn’t think he was as progressive as they were led to believe. The people criticizing Biden and Fetterman are typically liberals and progressives, not MAGA.
I think Joe Biden is grossly under-appreciated for what he’s accomplished thus far. He’s legit incredible (imo). He’s also old as shit and I reject the idea that he’s the only American citizen capable of running the country as well as he has for three years. Dude, take the W and GTFO.
I don’t think Joe Biden is underappreciated, it’s just that the main issue is of Gaza War, and people just don’t like how Israel conduct their war campaign and how US responded. No one reasonable would support Hamas, and any people with a moral compass would rather support a war campaign that minimizes deaths of civilians over those who signed up for combat.
But the reality check is that Gaza isn’t the main issue. And even if it were the GOP would handle it far worse than Biden has.
I’m saying the Gaza war is why Biden has the level of support that he has today, and I’m aware that GOP would have handled it far worse. Without the issue of Gaza, I can see Biden having significantly more support than he has now.
That’s a good point but most people care more about the economy and his approval ratings were shit before Gaza.
Any progressives who actually pay attention to what the government is doing and not just Republican propaganda are probably also supporting Biden.
He’s not been perfect. I wish he was younger, and i have criticisms on a lot of middle east foreign policy including Israel, but on the whole he’s been by far the most progressive president in my lifetime.
You can support someone while criticizing them.
‘Get your MAGA hat’
He’s got it backward and needs to look in the mirror.
i.e.,
There are people who defend Trump, no matter what.
and
There are people who defend Biden, no matter what.
Sure, but we also have to realize that we live in a country with a two-party system and a winner-take-all electoral college. If you’re not helping your candidate, you’re helping the opponent.
we live in a country with a two-party system
Although they’re perpetually marginalized, we do have third-party candidates.
You’ll never convince 160 million people to vote 3rd party. So a vote for 3rd party is a vote for the most popular of the 2 candidates.
No, a vote 3rd party is a vote against your most tolerable of the two viable candidates.
a vote for any candidate is a vote against all other candidates.
The key here is that it’s a vote for the most popular of the 2 candidates based on the votes of who bothered to vote for them specifically, then further butchered via the EC. It’s a smaller, different pool of people that may elect someone that the actual majority prefer less, because part of the actual majority decided to play a different game entirely.
They’ll never have a chance in a winner-take-all electoral college system.
There’s always some excuse for progressives to shut up.
As I lifelong democrat, I find this to be very dangerous rhetoric. It sounds tonedeaf. Regardless of the candidate, being critical of politicians is a cornerstone of democracy.
I understand it’s important to be a united front, but the need to seemingly bring dissenting voices into line is not a good way to do it. We cannot force people to say we have a perfect candidate for the sake of avoiding discussion.
I don’t think we have enough nuance in our politics to have that as more than an idyllic dream.
I disagree that’s what’s happening here. He’s saying that you can be disappointed with Biden all you want, but not voting for him means we get trump and Project 2025 and fascism.
I don’t know a single person that is stoked on Biden, but he’s all we have right now. And we cannot let Trump get a second term.
Unfortunately, that’s not what Fetterman is saying.
Fetterman noted during an interview an uptick in Democrats who have become more critical of Biden lately, and said it’s only helping former President Trump.
“I don’t understand why,” Fetterman said, speaking on “Morning Joe” on MSNBC. “I don’t know what’s in it for you to do that whether you’re just chasing clout or you want to make it in the news or anything like that. But if you’re not willing to just support the president now and say these kinds of things, you might as well just get your MAGA hat, because you now are helping Trump with this.”
He’s addressing other Democratic politicians, whom would probably be one of the last groups to not vote for Biden. He seems to think that Biden would fare better in November if Dems outright refuse to acknowledge the realities of unprecedented homelessness, Israeli war money, or being 81 years old. (Because forcing people to look to Republicans for a dissenting opinion on these subjects is a great idea.)
You should vote for Biden if you don’t want Trump, obviously. And vote for Fetterman over whomever if you don’t want whomever. But either Fetterman severely misspoke here, or his opinion goes way beyond that, and I can’t help but lose a lot of respect I had for him.
This is buying into the Republican way of thinking, which is that you criticize someone’s performance for any shortcoming you feel. A progressive stance is to elevate other people (There is more than one person in Government) who are doing things correctly without tearing down the current leader. It s the difference between a collaborative government and a competitive one. Within a (generally speaking) unified political block which values diversity of opinions, a collaborative approach is much more productive than a competitive one.
The strength of a movement is in the sum of the effort.
Oh, I totally agree everyone needs to vote for Biden based on how the system currently works. But what I disagree with is the insinuation that anyone disagreeing with Biden needs a MAGA hat. That’s tonedeaf and bad for the party.
It’s pretty much the party’s only message anymore. Just shut up and be happy with the genocide that party leadership has decided that you must love.
That has been proven time and again to not work. You can’t take the high road and expect to win.
Win what? Ultimately no one wins if we can’t discuss areas for improvement even within one’s own party.
Elections.
Right, but winning an election where your own party already required you to shut up about anything where you disagree – doesn’t seem like a win?
I think there’s this idea that if we keep the Dems in power, then we’ll hit a point where we can return to discussion and fix issues within the party. But that’s a false idea. There will always be an opponent, and the idea that we should all fall in line just to avoid fascism is, well, misguided at best. We’re already setting a precedent within the party to avoid dissidence. That’s wild.
With first past the post voting, a “win” is very simply avoiding the biggest loss.
Push and scream and lobby as much as you like, but at the end of the day, Biden only needs to be marginally less psychotic than Trump for him to be the preferred candidate.
The other side will fall in line behind Trump. So what choice is there?
Try criticizing Biden openly here or on Reddit. This is the party sentiment right now, open criticism is viewed as being equal to supporting Trump. It’s nutty.
Yeah, that’s one of my fears with this rhetoric. We keep reducing issues to bifurcations which is incredibly dangerous.
I don’t think that’s true, there’s plenty of disagreement over Biden policies. It’s when people try to play the both sides card, lumping Biden and Trump as both being senile or blaming the situation in Palestine on Biden that gets people riled up especially when people try to use those arguments to convince people to not vote.
We cannot force people to say we have a perfect candidate for the sake of avoiding discussion.
They seem to believe if something isn’t discussed, the other side won’t notice and / or discuss it either. That’s delusional.
Listen, Coach Fetterma: We love your size and bombastic past but “if you aren’t for us you are against us” is not the type of faux populism that is needed in 2024.
Yes it is. Don’t want to vote for Biden because you’re not so happy with him? How about Trump? Would you rather Trump?
Here we are again in a forced choice, as if democracy exists in the US. But it’s Biden or fascism.
You’re not going to make that outcome more likely by berating people.
We’re past the point of coddling people into seeing that Trump = bad. Lives will literally be at stake. We all need some sobering perspective about the reality of a 2nd Trump administration.
Let me be more clear: Berating people is not just ineffective, but sabotages the outreach done by people who are actually focused on winning. No one actually working on voter outreach or political persuasion wants you doing that.
Calling out Trump’s ills is fine and good, but berating people to vote doesn’t work, it’s just something to make yourself feel good. If that’s actually all you’re trying to accomplish, fine, message boards can be stress relief and entertainment, but don’t fool yourself into thinking you’re working to avert a Trump return.
While voting for Biden is the right thing to do in these circumstances, Fetterman has zero understanding of optics and apparently the oil companies got to him judging by his pro-Israel stance.
There are other choices. We don’t have to settle for Trump or Biden.
what plan does anyone have to make one of these other choices viable? bonus points if it doesn’t involve trying to overhaul both the electorate and the electoral system in 9 months.
I’m just voting 3rd party or write in and telling moderates they can either start compromising with leftists and progressives or lose to fascists a second time.
Moderates aren’t losing much. They’re not the type to care about leftists losing or rightists losing.
As a member of one of the vulnerable groups targeted by those fascists I want to thank you for using my family’s safety as a bargaining tool. We’re happy to be sacrificed to your protest vote which will accomplish nothing.
The moderates are doing that. They elevated Trump intentionally because they thought it would make it easier to win elections. Where is your anger towards them?
i’m pissed as fuck but my anger is irrelevant, this is a matter of my survival and your privileged attempt to “punish” the moderates is putting me in immediate danger.
Have you put any energy into telling moderates they need to wake the fuck up? Did you tell anyone they were an asshole for voting for Biden in the 2020 primaries?
Sounds like you’re ok with Trump winning then.
That’s what you’re gonna get, unless you think the Republicans are going to infight like this (non-spoiler-because-duh, they aren’t)
My plan is to pick a check box without the name Biden or Trump, or maybe write someone in. Being institutionalized into thinking a vote for anyone other than Biden is a vote for Trump is a pathway to madness
But that’s how FPTP works. Any one less vote for Biden is by default an extra vote for Trump. Unless of course, you’re not an immigrant, woman, transgender, gay, or any other minority. Then of course, Trump being in office means nothing to you so you do you. The rest of us have to suffer the consequences of having the country’s judicial, legislative, and executive branches stacked with Christian cripto-fascists hell bent on sending us back to the middle ages. Sorry the Revolution isn’t radical enough with Biden I guess.
This might be an instance where a good portion of the country might actually agree that the two major party candidates are jackasses. I remain hopeful.
We kinda do though. Sure you can vote for someone else if you want, but we are going to end up with either Trump or Biden.
That’s what they’d like you to think. If everyone moved a few check boxes down on the ballot, we’d have anyone else. Break free! It feels good 😊
https://intersol.ca/news/organizational-culture-and-the-5-monkeys-experiment/
(This never actually happened but I think the idea holds)
It “feels good” but it doesn’t work. The math isn’t there. If you can’t nominate a better candidate in a Democratic primary, with a significantly smaller and further-left voter base, you aren’t even in the game for the general election. Do you want to feel good, or have an impact?
There is literally no other reasonable option than Biden, thanks to FPTP. Voting for Trump is voting a fascist, every other “option” is throwing your vote away.
Well, you sir are a free thinker. Claim your prize in the ruins of democracy.
There is literally no other reasonable option than Biden
Biden is not a reasonable option. Biden is merely the least horrifically unreasonable. The Democratic Party’s ambitions extend no further and never will.
They used to, and they can again. A party is not a person or even a group of people. Let that silly anthropomorphism go. A party is a tool, a lever of power. Don’t like the people who control it? Great! Neither do I. Let’s take it from them.
Ask Jessica Cisneros what happens when you try.
The party fights progressives and capitulates to Republicans.
The people who control the party fight progressives and capitulate to Republicans. Of course the people who control the party are going to fight us to keep control of it. It remains the only viable tool to win in general elections. Blaming “the party” is like being on a losing football team and blaming the ball.
The people who control the party fight progressives and capitulate to Republicans. Of course the people who control the party are going to fight us to keep control of it. It remains the only viable tool to win in general elections. Blaming “the party” is like being on a losing football team and blaming the ball.
“The party” is shorthand for those who control it.
Come to me with your plan to convince 160 million people to vote 3rd party and then I’ll take this seriously.
Better yet, they should come to us with the plan that’s going to make ANY of the Democrats or Republicans work with a 3rd party president to allow them to get anything done. Even if some insane miracle occurred, and a 3rd party candidate got elected president, they would accomplish absolutely nothing, as it is not in the political interest of either Democrats or Republicans to work with them. In spite of what Trump would like people to believe, presidents are not dictators and can’t just do whatever the hell they want. All of the people endlessly screaming about how there are more choices simply refuse to accept this fact.
Is your plan to vote based on how everyone else votes? Seems like a great way to reinforce a two party system.
I’m still on the fence about whether I can stomach knowing that I voted for the genocidal monster that can barely remember his name because he’s better than the fascist genocidal monster that wants to end whatever semblance of democracy we might have. This country is just the worst.
Literally every single US president since 1948 has assisted Israel in committing genocide against Palestinians. Don’t clutch your pearls now.
“That’s the way we’ve always done it” - people who like the way we’ve always done it.
Genocide must stop.
WOULD YOU RATHER eat a chocolate bar off a public toilet seats lid.
OR WOULD YOU RATHER Eat a chocolate bar out of a public toilet bowl.
It’s unfortunately nothing new, but I do think the alternative is a new level of bad.
But he’s the lesser of two evils! Doesn’t that get you motivated to get to the polls on November? Lesser!
It really should.
And yet, it doesn’t. It’s incredibly easy to not choose either, believe it or not.
You’d prefer to have voted for Trump?
These kinds of comments are getting obvious. You’re string here bitching about Biden, when we can all agree the alternative would be worse.
Go peddle your bullshit elsewhere.
It could be worse. We could have a dictator that regulates literally everything we do. My porn is anonymous for now.
Funny how demanding unquestioned loyalty is a MAGA cultist quality.
“haha jk I’m mid right just like every other dem! Vote mid right or vote far right cause you can suck a dick otherwise!”
DJ air horn
Fetterman’s trolling is a great way to find the tankies. 🤣
Ahhh, the land of the free and the home of the brave, where you’re not allowed to mock your elected leader without hurting someone else’s feelings.
Supreme Leader is above criticism, and to believe otherwise means you’re the one in a cult.
