Yeah… Because there’s no place for downward pressure on health expenses. Hospitals are incentivized to raise prices as much as possible, because they know insurance companies will negotiate downwards. Insurance companies pass all costs back down to the pool while working as hard as possible to deny everything. Drug companies know they have a captive market, nobody else is making that medicine you need for survival so “Cha-Ching!”. Employers are looking for the cheapest health plans possible which means the shittiest plans for their employees. And any company that sells medical equipment is looking at selling it for as much money as possible (or in a “package” that gets hospitals to overcharge on individually wrapped tylenol). Hospital Admins spend more time and money to make sure patients are charged $20 for a $0.10 pill than they trying to keep enough doctors and nurses on staff.
Medicare for all, that’s the only way to start righting the ship here. Nationalizing the entire healthcare system would be the next step. It’s beyond stupid that we run healthcare for profit.
So it’s actually more complicated than that (at least to your first point, the points about drug companies is accurate). First, I support M4A, especially plans like Bernie’s that improved reimbursement. One major issue is that the government (Medicaid in particular, Medicare also) pays below costs in some cases. So hospitals charge a shit ton to commercial insurance to make up for their loss on other patients.
In terms of employers saving money, most large employers have moved to self-insurance (70-80%, depending on how you define “large”).
In a single payer system, why would how much the payer pays for service matter, on a per service basis? The payer may as well just run the entire system. Essentially, an integrated delivery network (like Kaiser Permanente) on a national scale.
Did he even get the full bill. Last time I went to an ER, I paid off something and then two years later got sent another bill. I called and said, this is a mistake, right? First lady said probably, everyone else said nope. This is your physician’s bill. The other one was a hospital bill. I asked, why did I then get it for the first time after a visit from TWO years ago?? What was goin on in the mean time? “Oh we were transitioning companies, probably something to do with that?” I tried to fight it, I got a reduced price, but that was so insane to me
I got hit with Lyme AFTER I lost my job last year. I got the bill for my ER visit, it sucked, but I was expecting it. To add insult to injury they sent me another bill, which was physician bill. The system is so fuvking stupid, it will kick you when you’re down. Next time I’m just flying to Europe somewhere to get a treatment.
As a Canadian, the idea of paying thousands, even in Canadian dollars, for a single healthcare visit, seems absolutely insane to me.
I can’t imagine living under that kind of threat. I would be deathly scared of getting injured, by no fault of my own, and ending up in the poor house as a result. Forget having any… More voluntary… medical costs, like having a child. I couldn’t imagine doing that knowing what it would cost me.
Honestly, if I was in that situation, I’d be scared of doctors too. Having to choose between having good health but being unable to afford the basics, or living with disorder or disease, would probably break me.
And it’s not hard to extrapolate the problems you start to face when the average person is afraid to go to the doctor
I recently got one single stitch in my hand. $2k after insurance paid their portion and I think I have pretty good insurance. I should have done it myself.
Welcome to America…
Never been to the US before I guess 🤷♂️ He got off pretty light at 5k.
Just don’t pay it. Nothing they can do about it.
Sending medical info to collections is a violation of HIPPA, just ask for the itemized list.
0 chance they’d give you any flak for anything under, say, a 250k heart surgery.
Hah! All of those foolish lawyers and politicians, their staff, all the lobbyists who wrote HIPAA (not HIPPA)…and not one thought “hey, you know, we should probably make sure that when people don’t pay their bills, there’s some recourse for the provider”. What a bunch of maroons.
If he thinks five grand is a big hospital bill, he’s not living in the real world.
I’m living in the real world, most I’ve ever had to pay was parking and I guess a few bucks for meds. I remember how $100 for meds a fe years ago made me cringe.
But I also live in a first world country, with first world problems.
Two years ago my dad had a cardiac arrest.
Resuscitation, ambulance ride, four stents, nearly a week in a coma in intensive care, another week recovering. No charge at all. Due to Covid and them not really want everyone putting their germy hospital hands on the ticket machines, even the parking was free.
All I paid was a few quid for a bottle of water and some biscuits from the hospital shop.
Now there are issues with the NHS, in that anything non-urgent can take a very long time and might not get resolved at all, and it being chronically understaffed to the point of negligence (which is intentional sabotage by our government) but for emergencies, it’s amazing.
That sounds so… wonderful. The patient and family get to focus on health and feel like they belong to a society that values their wellbeing? 🤩
5 grand for something that can be fixed by quite literally buying salt and distilled water (obviously give or take a month, but that doesn’t matter). Idk where you live but that shit is cheap where I am.
It’s not that 5 grand is a big bill. It’s that they’re charging 5 grand for salt water.
Don’t go to the ER for dehydration. If it’s really that bad, find an IV lounge that can just give you an IV bag with some vitamins and maybe some meds.
It’s like $150-$200, which I know is still expensive, but you don’t need insurance and it’s a quick in-and-out.
When that dehydrated, injecting liquids is way more effective than drinking them.
Are IV lounges something anyone can just walk in and do?
Yeah, it’s actually kinda wild because the first time I went in, something about it felt illegal. But nope, they’re perfectly fine and a great way to treat dehydration, hangovers, migraines, general pain, nausea, etc. Anyone can walk in and use them.
They’ve personally saved me several times when my migraines have gotten to their 10/10 point because the meds hit so much more effectively through IV than orally.
I highly doubt he just felt a little parched and decided to go to the ER. I also wouldn’t suggest to others to diagnose themselves as dehydrated and go to an IV clinic (unless they perform medical check-ups from licensed physicians as well).
In an interview Monday with Business Insider, Adams said he went to the ER in Scottsdale, Arizona, in January after he became lightheaded while hiking on a work trip.
From his wiki he looks like a fit military figure who’s probably not had the many health complications (is also still in his 40’s). As a doctor himself and probably his colleagues around him (work trip), I imagine the recommendation is to get checked-up asap. It’s also kind of ironic you’re calling out the former Surgeon General and a licensed doctor while giving alternative medical advice lol.
It’s not even alternative medical advice though. You go to the ER for dehydration and they’re going to give you an IV of fluids and vitamins. I know because I’ve done it several times.
Whatever the Surgeon General’s issue was, I’m sure he knew what was best for him and of course go to the ER if you’re that bad.
But I’ve personally been in situations where an ER visit would have been warranted. I’m not talking just parched, it’s when I’ve been frequently vomiting for 18 hours every 20 minutes and severely dehydrated because of my migraines. But instead of needing the ER, it took 10 minutes to get an IV at an IV lounge that took care of it for far cheaper and quicker. And then I’m not taking up a bed from someone who could use it more.
There’s nothing wrong with getting IVs because the people administering them are trained nurses. It’s not “alternative medicine” because it’s literally what the ER gives you.
This is the worst advice anyone has ever given.
If it was fixed by salt water, why did he go to ER?
Because it was a medical emergency?
“Working as intended.”
-Republicans
I think you mean
Working as intended
-the rich
I think you mean
Working as intended
-The owning classplenty of working class people could be considered rich and a medical bill would still upend their lives.
It’s the rich running this country. The political system is there to make the masses feel represented.
Sad that the system meant to make us feel represented does the opposite.
Dr. Jerome Adams, who was the nation’s top doctor from 2017 to 2021, said he was slammed with an almost $5,000 bill after being treated for dehydration at a Mayo Clinic emergency department, where he got labs and a few IV bags.
Awesome. I’m going there at the end of March.
He got more done than he said. He likely went in for syncope (since he’s a doctor and that’s one of the few things that might scare them) and they did an ECG and possibly something else (particularly if he requested it). That said, 5k is still ridiculous.
You’re gonna get SLAMMED!!! They’re gonna bite your toes put your dick in a curling iron! You’ll leave with a cured appetite and they’ll FUCKING DUNK ON YOU with a $600 Billion bill! Don’t forget to take advantage of their financial assistance; the whole medical system may be financially and morally ruined, but there are some ways to navigate semi-relatively unscathed.
I’m guessing we’re going to get through our $10,000 deductible at least.
I genuinely hope it goes well. I excited await hearing about your progress.
Thanks. I sure hope so too because we have no idea where to go next.
There’s a pretty good prison in Terre Haute
I’m fairly certain a federal prison is not going to help me with my medical issues…
When the system can’t milk you for any more wealth, your next destination is a poor person death camp.
Oh, buddy, best of luck!
Thanks!
Oh shoot, you’re the person who’s been having trouble eating, aren’t you. Man, I hope they’re able to help you out. So sorry for your health issues.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
You’re planning on visiting the ER?
No, but it’s the same hospital.
If you’re curious why I’m going there, I wrote about it in Casual Conversation- https://lemmy.world/post/12194311
Long story short: I haven’t been able to eat any solid food for over six months and no one knows why.
(Please no medical advice, I am begging you. The general you, not you specifically.)
Have you tried chewing it?
I know you’re joking, but I am literally unable to.
Nothing is more frustrating than people giving unsolicited medical advice. I’ve IBD and I mentioned on a post about people buying cheap frozen food why some people do it. I explained that I literally can’t do prep, cook and watch the stuff cooking due to the symptoms when having a flare up. Wouldn’t you know I got the typical reply that I should learn to cook (I know how) and eat healthily and seek medical advice (I’ve a specialist nurse I can contact at any time and it’s difficult to eat anything when in constant pain and I feel nauseous after eating) so I feel you dude with not wanting to hear it at all no matter how well meaning some people are.
And they really are well-meaning, I know that, but it’s so tiring to say “yes, we’ve been over that. It’s not that. I don’t fit those symptoms.” or whatever over and over.
I hope you find a solution for your IBD that helps you, I’m sure that’s really awful.
Oh but armchair doctoring is so fun (for everyone else). It’s like Guess Who: House M.D. edition.
The Mayo Clinic specializes in a lot of niche stuff which means people often have to fly from all over the country to visit this specific hospital in Minnesota
Like mayonnaise?
Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.
Is mayo a solid food?
Idk about you but I tend to avoid the chunky solid parts of the mayonnaise.
Surely you’ve seen the movie Airplane!
I know. I count myself lucky live less than an hour away from it. My grandma has actually gotten flown in on mayo one before for an emergency (speaking of expensive bills).
My original comment was a joke because the top post was talking about the surgeon general going to one of their emergency rooms and op was talking about planning to go there by which they meant mayo clinic but it could also be read as them meaning the ER.
Why, yes.
Yeah, no shit. I have a full time job, supposedly great health insurance, but I still can’t actually afford to go to the doctor (never mind an ER).
all insurance is a scam but any insurance that doesn’t cover you for the only thing it’s selling is also fraud.
Here’s the fun part.
It’s been like this for at least 20+ years.
I remember when my dad lost his job around 2002. I was a little kid and my mom told me to be careful when I’m playing outside, because if I broke my arm we could lose our house. That’s something I don’t think should ever be a reality, or something that parents or children should worry about in a functioning country.
Yes, but longer. It’s absurd. Not sure exactly when premiums really got out of control, though. There’s probably a good chart out there.
Democrats tried to fix this almost… 15 years ago (“thanks Obama”). Critical failure: no Medicare option for all. Most civilized democracies implemented right to free care 30+ years ago, should’ve been easy to follow. (Then higher education as well.) For-profit health insurance companies and their armies of lobbyists are evil and should be burned to the ground.
The worst part is Obamacare wasn’t even good - it was a huge compromise with insurance companies… Before it was further compromised and sabotaged. It came out of the heritage foundation after all - everything they come up with is some way to cause mass suffering to make a few people a lot of money
On the pro column, they gave up preexisting condition rejections - definitely good - and increased child coverage to 25 - which is nice to have I guess. It also made it easier to get health care not coupled to your job. Which would be great, except insurance gives you so much less protection at this point that people aren’t much better off than they were uninsured before
On the minus side, they came up with standards of care, which creates so much documentation it drove most of private practice out of business, forcing them to join healthcare systems. It’s as much as 2-4x as much time doing paperwork as seeing patients, and then the doctor has to negotiate with the insurance company back and forth on a case by case basis.
And healthcare systems are basically regional monopolies, which is why costs ballooned so ridiculously. It was always bad in this country, but nowhere near this bad.
They also overwork doctors, which is probably a big part of why outcomes are getting worse - they’re running healthcare as a business. People who have zero healthcare training are min-maxing health system policies to make line go up
Not to mention, the one big win was supposed to be a public option on the healthcare marketplaces - the idea is you get something like a government run, at-cost insurance company. That was going to be the base line - private competition with “government inefficiency”
It’s all just such a shit show - the solution is so simple too. Insurance does three things - it collects a little money from a lot of people to cover big costs from the minority who suddenly needs a lot of it. It uses economies of scale/collective bargaining to keep costs down on the provider side. And it has to have enough bureaucracy/oversight to keep embezzlement/fraud/kickbacks at sustainable levels (you don’t even have to stop it, you could just keep good records and watch for large scale offenders, and come down on them hard)
All of those things are better done without a profit incentive, and they work better the more people are in this kind of union… It’s mind boggling that people don’t understand how straightforward it is.
Hell, know what happens when a homeless man comes into the ER and racks up a 6 figure bill because they couldn’t afford treatment until they’re at deaths door? The hospital doesn’t just eat the cost, we all pay for it collectively anyways
Because i think you’re the thinking sort, I suggest you Google ‘how Democrats sabotaged Obamacare’ or similar, select a source or sources you trust and see what you take away from your reading.
In my view it was similar to the recent Manchin / Sinema travesty. Zero Republican votes, plus some very cowardly or corrupt “centrist Democrats” that neuter or kill bill. A classic recipe for disappointment.
You are right. It was eerily similar. There was even a single scapegoat! His name was Ben Nelson, and he was a former insurance executive.
He joined politics for a few years, vsinglehandedly destroyed the public option, and then quit public service.
Makes you think, huh?
Our (Australian) right wing government stopped increasing the amount they pay doctors when people visit, and the new left wing government isn’t doing anything either.
So now I have to “co-pay” $30 whenever I visit, when it used to be free. I found that so outrageous that next time, I’m travelling half an hour to go to a clinic that still “bulk bills” (read: doesn’t charge the patient).
If I was an American I think I’d just die of rage. I wonder how much that’d cost me.
Edit: Oops, turns out our new left wing government just recently INCREASED the GP payment rate, so hopefully we’ll see more bulk billing places return.
No way!
Welcome to the revolution friend.
This isn’t news, it just underscores how out-of-touch some demographics are to what most of us deal with.
Yeah but the market sets the price. This is capitalism. If you want to change the price, don’t go there. Pick a cheaper clinic. There are plenty of hospitals. It’s up to the consumer to price shop, emergency or not. I’m sure the Mayo clinic is making razor thin margins.
---- heavy sarcasm
The “healthcare” system isn’t broken, it works perfectly.
You’re just mistaken about what its purpose is.It’s one of the most beautiful examples of capitalism working as intended: When you’re hurting or dying, your demand for healthcare is unlimited, and you’re in no position to compare prices or services, so cost is determined by the maximum amount that can be squeezed out of you during your remaining lifetime.
That’s not how capitalism is meant to work at all.
Its obviously and uncompetitive market and something needs to change.
History shows us that capitalism inevitably tends towards monopolies
To spell out the point here - healthcare isn’t the point of the healthcare industry under capitalism - profit is. Any healthcare delivered is going to be the bare minimum required to separate you from your money.
I’ve worked in hospital systems since I graduated from college. There has been one meeting (out of all the meetings!) that I have absolutely never forgotten due to something that was brought up.
They thought it was super cool to talk about how much cash our new surgical center was bringing in. I know it was small in the scheme of things, but in my head a hospital should be super happy when they don’t have to perform surgery on a person. They shouldn’t be happy to perform surgery so that they can make money.
For me it was a quarterly town hall with hospital leadership and they kept pushing “we are a business…” and all I could think was “no, we are a hospital…” because being a business is indicative of being profit motivated. I know, I know, that’s exactly what it is, but it just really bothered me to hear that line over and over.
When you have an actual functioning competitive market the money you bring in correlates with the value of the service you provide, so it makes perfect sense to be happy about the money the new surgical center is bringing in. That means it’s useful.
The problem is that the health care market is regulated and subsidized in so many ways, many of them conflicting with each other, that competition is very limited and price discovery is reduced to “whatever the patient (and their insurance) can afford to pay” since they can’t go anywhere else. Fix that and there won’t be any reason for hospital owners or employees to feel guilty about making money.
Most healthcare systems in the US are non-profits. To run a non-profit, you still need revenue. They have to pay their own bills just like anyone else.
Non-profits need revenue, true. But many non-profit hospitals are not acting like nonprofits. Here’s a NYT opinion piece about it
Here’s an actual study on the issue.
You’re largely right about nonprofits not contributing enough, but that’s a systemic issue that reflects the poor quality of the system and how it’s funded in the first place, such as the way we allow insurance companies to take huge chunks of our money.
Yeah that’s not what it’s about at all. Hospitals need funding. Hospitals do not need a profit motive. Remove the profit motive and socialize the costs of healthcare. Just like every civilized country does it.
You say I’m wrong and then you go on to reiterate my exact point about money. Hospitals require funding and they are funded in every developed nation. Nonprofits do not have a profit motive. They argue with your insurance company for more money, just like every other developed nation, regardless of whether it is directly single payer or a system like Germany or Japan, which largely rely on private companies.
you’re arguing for profit to remain a focus within the healthcare industry. That’s anti-people, and why everyone is downvoting you. Everyone knows a hospital requires funding, we just want our tax dollars to pay it.
You’re putting words in my mouth. I never said that. I said anything needs money to run, even a nationalized system or a single payer system.
You aren’t the bastion of reason you imagine yourself to be. Read more, comment less.
Please.
Not for me, for the betterment of the human race.
Did you have an actual response to the fact that hospitals need funding?
The short answer is no. You may stop reading now as the next sentence is similar to the last one.
If it wasn’t clear to you, I’m busy dismissing your opinion as uninformed and without merit. It is clearly, objectively wrong, and the idea that you deserve a voice in this discussion with the level of information you own currently? Patently ridiculous.
Your sense of self worth would be admirable is it weren’t so misplaced.
It’s wrong that hospitals need money to operate? Bud, I got a master’s in this… which hospital are you aware of that doesn’t pay for electricity or pay its providers with money? Talk about patently ridiculous.
A masters in…?
Just have the state pay for it?
I want to downvote you simply because i hate this truth. I hate it, so, so much.
One of the most perfect parts of how powerful lobbies constructed it is that, unaffordable as it is, there IS no free market for care, you are forced into networks and PPOs, etc. so if someone DID offer a better price outside of your consumer funnel(sorry, insurance plan), your insurer would just deny the claim at the providers standard 20x cost price for uninsured procedures. Also, 100% price obfuscation so comparison shopping is impossible. It is end-game capitalism.
