- cross-posted to:
- usnews@lemy.lol
- cross-posted to:
- usnews@lemy.lol
White House levy to protect US makers from cheap imports likely to inflame trade tensions
The US president, Joe Biden, has announced a 100% tariff on Chinese-made electric vehicles as part of a package of measures designed to protect US manufacturers from cheap imports.
In a move that is likely to inflame trade tensions between the world’s two biggest economies, the White House said it was imposing more stringent curbs on Chinese goods worth $18bn.
Sources said the move followed a four-year review and was a preventive measure designed to stop cheap subsidised Chinese goods flooding the US market and stifling the growth of the American green technology sector.
…
Despite the risks of retaliation from Beijing, Biden said the increased levies were a proportionate response to China’s overcapacity in the EV sector. Sources said China was producing 30m EVs a year but could sell only 22-23m domestically.
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hell yes Americans hate cost effective stuff
And the environment! It’s double whammy of an American policy
Nice try, Joe, but I will never buy a Tesla. Ever.
Than buy a Rivian.
Ain’t spending that stupid amount of money for either a Tesla or Rivian. Make something half the price that can run 300 miles, and you will have my attention, (the Chevy Bolt was so close).
EVs are toys for the upper middle class and the rich.
I would consider it, though they don’t currently sell anything I would consider to be affordable.
Those pickup trucks do look really nice, though. If I ever triple my salary I might consider one.
Bezos owns a bit of that.
At $74k per truck, you could buy 2.5 $30k Priusi
The Silverado Electric is at least in an affordable ballpark, at $40k for their base model. But what the hell does everyone need a truck for, anyway? I see them in the office parking garage all the time, and I can’t imagine what everyone thinks they’re lifting or towing.
Meanwhile, the BYD Seagull goes for under $10k, a third the price of a Nissan Leaf.
I’m excited for affordable electric trucks.
I do a lot of wood working as a hobby and some commissions for friends, and deeply regret having to sell my old F150 for a van. Now I have to rent a store pickup if I need to move large sheets of plywood or long pieces of dimensional lumber. I also work in the trades, and while it’s possible to move most of the stuff I need in my van, a pickup would be nice, as long as it doesn’t suck down gas like it’s got a hole in the tank.
Having an electric pickup that doesn’t cost as much as a corvette would be really nice for my use case.
I buy lumber every couple of weekends. Sometimes used furniture. Can’t do that in my Civic. So I have to borrow my dad’s truck. I’d love to get a light pickup like the S-10 or Ranger used to be (and electric if it was available) but there’s nothing like that available these days because of American bullshit.
Yes, you seem to need it, but almost every time I see a pickup truck, it is:
- Driven by a white dude with no passengers
- Has no cargo
- Not hauling anything
I full up my 11-gallon tank in my small 4-door car. I can’t imagine the expense of filing that up, nor the payments of purchasing one
Funny how when China makes a bunch of cars it’s “over capacity” and needs 100% tariffs, but Japan has been doing the same thing for decades and no one batted an eye.
Actually japanese cars had the same scare mongering and protectionism
I think this is to combat subsidies, but it begs the question on why other subsidized products out of china aren’t tariffed.
I haven’t read this yet but it looks relevant:
https://insideevs.com/features/719015/china-is-ahead-of-west/
Interesting read, thanks
How can anyone see this and not see that the US is a manipulative shithole country? Champion of the free world markets except when they aren’t winning, then closed market manipulation and government interference.
The US hasn’t been ahead for many years and they can’t innovate. So now they just want to keep out actual progress.
I wouldnt call cheap cars made by slaves innovative
Your American ignorance is outstanding.
And China isn’t trying to manipulate the market? These Chinese cars are all sold at loss.
Ford lost an estimated $36,000 on each of the 36,000 EVs it delivered to dealers in the third quarter.
Source? And don’t link to a Ford article…
Ford lost an estimated $36,000 on each of the 36,000 EVs it delivered t
CNN or Reuters, but ultimately the info comes from Ford, obviously
You’re gonna need a source for that claim. I’ve read a lot about EVs and never once has anyone ever said BYD is selling at a loss.
Heavily subsidized, which is equivalent in this context.
How China Rose to Lead the World in Cars and Solar Panels
(paywall-free version)
China Vies to Be World’s Leader in Electric Cars
(paywall-free version)
Finding these articles took about ten seconds in a web search.
So what if the car is sold at a loss? I also find that extremely hard to believe when BYD Company has a net income of nearly $23 Billion dollars, and their largest subsidiary is BYD Auto.
The subsidy is included in that income. They are being paid by the Chinese govt in part or in particular to damage foreign manufacturing base and economies and to keep them out of China as a strategic move.
“So what” is a fair question that deserves an answer. The most obvious concern is if they are able to hurt our manufacturing, we become reliant on their car’s and the prices go up and we start exporting more of our wealth and we as a nation become poorer and less able to fight back on predatory practices.
There are also national defense considerations to having a weak manufacturing base. That’s why we are trying to build up our semiconductor capabilities because we are already too reliant on SE Asia for comfort.
The Chevy Bolt was consistently praised as a wonderful EV, but last I heard GM lost money on it factoring in the battery recall, so I don’t think the goal here is to protect the “massive profits” by keeping prices high.
Is this particular move the right one? Too much? Too little? All good questions and folks who know way more about it could have a healthy debate, but there are good reasons other than fucking over American car buyers. Walmart and Amazon have destroyed local retailers to our detriment, and that’s the sort of situation this aims to prevent. But I can’t say whether it’s the right solution or will ultimately work.
Very well thought out, thanks for replying and being honest that no one can accurately assess the outcome of this move yet.
In my eyes, including subsidies in a company’s financials feels more honest than the alternative, though I’d like to see a breakdown of income vs subsidies. I also feel that criticisms of subsidies are hypocritical in this instance, considering that US farming is held up by duct tape, spit, and subsidies.
I do also understand the concerns about being reliant on a single country’s manufacturing and how it could impact national defense, though I would like to submit that we’re already so reliant on Chinese manufacturing capabilities at this point that seeding discord like this is going to have some negative consequences in other markets manufactured in China.
I have never seen proof that these cars are sold at a loss. I did read an article how they got giant grants to Kickstart their battery tech and production. So maybe someone is doing some weird back accounting for that?
If someone does have a source of each individual vehicle being subsidized, I would love to see it.
Nobody wants to listen to reason or actually think any of this through they just want their artificially cheap products. The same people who claim to support unions and raising wages for average workers are now arguing against both because they might be able to get one new car out of the deal before all the competition crumbles and we’re back to high prices and beholden to China for all our automotive needs. It’s ridiculous to have to keep reading this hypocrisy over and over again.
Apparently used vehicles are so 2020 and we should scrap all 220 million of them and build brand new ones because that’s what’s good for the environment.
It’s the same as the arguments for cheap big macs. Fair! Until it’s more expensive for me…
People are clowns.
How’re you enjoying that artificially cheap gas 🤣🤣🤣🤣
It is artificially cheap here when compared to other major countries. What’s your point?
The point is you’re also enjoying artificially cheap shit. The only difference is do you want artificially cheap oil or artificially cheap EVs. I know what choice Id make.
No the difference is that we’re subsidizing our oil in our own market. It’d only be comparable if we were trying to sell our oil to some other country at a cost well below the competition.
they just want their artificially cheap products
Because that’s all they can AFFORD due to gigantic corporations colluding to make housing, food, healthcare, medicine, and yes, cars artificially expensive.
You’re acting like poverty is an irresponsible choice by the consumers rather than the inevitable effect of extreme corporate profiteering allowed because the politicians are receiving bribes.
And yes, the president formerly known as The Senator from MBNA is very much one of those corrupt politicians.
The same people who claim to support unions and raising wages for average workers are now arguing against both
[Citation needed]
the competition crumbles and we’re back to high prices
That’s exactly what this ridiculously high tariff does: it removes competition so that American carmakers won’t have to lower their ridiculously high prices.
beholden to China for all our automotive needs
Yeah, because being beholden to the notoriously corrupt and abusive big US automakers and paying more for the privilege is MUCH better! 🙄
it’s ridiculous to have to keep reading this hypocrisy over and over again.
Is what I think every time party robots such as yourself who rightly castigated Trump for his harmful trade war with China but are now cheering on Biden doing the same with many of the same justifications.
Apparently used vehicles are so 2020 and we should scrap all 220 million of them and build brand new ones because that’s what’s good for the environment.
Burning Man called. They want their colossal strawman back.
Because that’s all they can AFFORD due to gigantic corporations colluding to make housing, food, healthcare, medicine, and yes, cars
What people are being forced to buy expensive new cars? I make decent money and always buy used because it’s a much better value.
You’re acting like poverty is an irresponsible choice by the consumers rather than the inevitable effect of extreme corporate profiteering allowed because the politicians are receiving bribes.
I’ve done nothing of the sort. You’re advocating for a bunch of US manufacturing workers to get laid off because you want to buy a new car for an unreasonably low price.
[Citation needed]
Are you joking? This is the entire topic of discussion.
That’s exactly what this ridiculously high tariff does: it removes competition so that American carmakers won’t have to lower their ridiculously high prices.
How does this remove competition? What it removes is the effects of unsustainable subsidies that artificially reduce the price of these cars. They’re free to compete with the rest of the industry on a level playing field.
Yeah, because being beholden to the notoriously corrupt and abusive big US automakers and paying more for the privilege is MUCH better! 🙄
In what way are we beholden to US automakers (Ford, GM, and Tesla)? What a ridiculous statement. Have you never been car shopping before? There’s a lot more brands for sale here than those three.
Is what I think every time party robots such as yourself who rightly castigated Trump for his harmful trade war with China but are now cheering on Biden doing the same with many of the same justifications.
So this is about party politics now? I think Biden and Trump are both pieces of shit. You can dig through my comment history if you don’t believe me.
Burning Man called. They want their colossal strawman back.
You must not have read through the comments here. Half of them are saying we’re all doomed if we can’t get our hands on these cheap new cars.
Electric is literally life. Fossil fuel is death. Chose wisely.
It’s literally not.
It’s the chicken tax all over again
I guess Americans will never get cheap electric cars. Make no mistake. US automakers aren’t going to use this tariff to buy time to make competitive cheap electric cars. They’re just going to rest on their laurels and continue to sell large overpriced trucks, SUV and their EV counterparts.
I guess you’re going to conveniently ignore that most the big US manufacturers have all agreed to stop making combustion engine vehicles by 2035
I said that US automakers don’t want any Americans buying cheap EVs. They’ll happily sell you an EV just be ready to pay mid-high five to low six figures for it. No way in hell do they want to make 20k EVs.
Yeah, cause now the cheap competitor they could compare to just got pricier so that means they can also raise prices
Didn’t we already learn this lesson with Harley Davidson?
Whatever makes the O&G industry more money, eh?
Spice must flow
That’s what pisses me off here, I just want something affordable to get from a-b work commute, I’m not spending $80k on an electric suv that I only have because I’m forced into work.
It’s gonna end up with me buying a moped or small motorcycle to get to work at reasonable cost
Citizen, you must pay tribute to your CEO overlords!
It’s gonna end up with me buying a moped or small motorcycle to get to work at reasonable cost
Actually glad to hear that. That’s one positive outcome from this aggressive nationalist bullshit decision from Biden. Electric cars (even cheaper, smaller ones from China) aren’t an appropriate way to address climate change. Converting car drivers to two wheelers is way more of a positive move and will also have major benefits to traffic and pedestrian safety. Way better than buying a big fucking American electric pickup truck or SUV.
You’re kinda skipping over a few things as well as something the previous comment mentioned.
- Weather. I live in a pretty big metro area that has freezing cold winters and sweltering hot summers (with high humidity).
- Cargo space is definitely something to think about. There are a lot of families that have to drive to a store for a family’s amount of food for the week
- Long distances to get to anything in the suburbs amplifies issues 1 and 2 (including usually no pubic transportation to help)
- The previous commenter mentioned they don’t want a giant SUV and just want an affordable electric car.
All these things are a reason cars are a huge necessity in most of the US. Yes, getting to an area where we can all mostly use 2 wheels would be great, but we should recognize that doing better is a great step forward instead of shooting it down because it’s not perfect.
I say all this as a person who works from home so I don’t have to worry about a commute, has a small car for necessary trips, and does my best avoid unnecessary driving and makes sure to carpool at every opportunity.
I’m thinking of getting a smart car for city driving since I often have to haul gear from one borough to another, but REALLY don’t want a traditional car, much less an SUV. They seem so much easier to find parking for
If you’re talking about the smart brand car i wouldn’t, they’ve been discontinued in the US so maintenance on them is going to be difficult and expensive.
If you’re American that is, assuming you’re a New Yorker based on usage of borough lol
Are there any other cars that small? The only reason I’m considering in the first place is because of its size. I really fucking hate traditional cars otherwise. I also see them all over the city.
I guess Americans will never get cheap electric cars.
You can always drive them over the border from Mexico.
They’ll just make all the parts and send them to the US for assembly.
Or Mexico. And honestly I’m fine with that. Create some jobs outside of China for a change.
China has been pretty well known for bringing in their own workers on foreign construction projects. They’re unapologetically nation building. I could easily see them continue to do so with manufacturing.
I wouldn’t be surprised to find out a majority of US cars are manufactured with Chinese parts. The US is absolutely not nation building. The rust belt has been exported and nobody really wants to bring it back.
They’re banning 25 year old kei trucks, they were definitely not gonna allow China to compete.
God forbid we try to save the planet without making morbillions in shareholder value first.
As far as I know, the Feds aren’t banning Kei style trucks. But most states are banning them from road use. Since they do not meet highway safety standards. But that’s what makes the cheap - deleting all the safety equipment and being under powered. But you can still get as many as you like. And you are still welcome to drive them off road.
The feds aren’t banning them but there’s a 25% tarrif on importing them because of the chicken tax tarrif.
deleting all the safety equipment and being under powered
That must be why those death traps regularly kill people in all of the countries where they’re regularly used!
And even if that (crap) reason is why: ban them from the freeways, then, not from every fucking road. You know, like mopeds and similar small scooters?
First, the countries where they are popular tend to have limited higher speed roadways and the general population doesn’t want to own one anyway. And some countries simply do not care if you die in one. It is pretty hard to get seriously hurt of killed at 20mph speeds.
Second, trying to legislate where people might drive those things will prove to be futile. We both know Bubba and Ken will think “it’s only a little ways” and try to get one of these those things up on a highway speed roadway in a grossly overloaded tiny little pickup. Only to be run over by an 80,000lbs semi or smacked in the rear-end by Karen in her Suburban doing 70 mph in a 50mph zone. This is probably a very good case where the rules banning them from roads are to protect people from their own stupidity.
We kill enough people every year in the highly engineered for safety vehicles we already have. And besides, I have seen people drive and most of y’all shouldn’t.
Electric cars will not save the planet, they will save the auto industry. Use a bike to get around whenever possible if you actually care.
God forbid we try to save the planet without making morbillions in shareholder value first.
I’m still more interested in one than I am a Tesla.
Throw another one on the pile of reasons to not support him.
Trump would be no better. If I had to make a rough scorecard it would be Biden 55 and Trump about 4.
The only two people that exist in the world
Welcome to the two-party system. If you’d ever like that to change, you have a better chance of doing that with a democrat majority.
why would I have any chance at all with either of the two parties that are perpetuating it?
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Voting
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It’s sad that you think “Not Biden” defaults to “Trump”
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It’s sad that for anyone to vote for a candidate in the US it actually is Trump or Biden.
You’re welcome to say 3rd party all you want but that 1% of the vote ain’t saying much good.
That is 100% the current situation.
yeah I love globalism. its been so great.
Like, I agree, but do you actually think Trump is a better choice?
It’s sad that people come out of the woodworks like you only to invoke the orange man whenever somebody says they don’t agree with something Biden is doing. I mean, leaving the MAGA crowd out for now… don’t you think we can have a better conversation trying to think beyond the next presidential race?
We know there’s probably some anti-Biden propaganda around. We get it. How about you assume for one moment that whoever it is you are replying to is actually smart enough to understand what it means to elect Trump and are already aware to vote for Biden in the general election? Why don’t you actually address the problems with Biden without comparing him to Trump?
I think supporting someone other than Biden or Trump is a better choice
If we had ranked choice voting, sure. However, in our current two party system with first past the post voting, there are only two choices that actually matter. It fucking sucks.
And they have no reason to change it as long as you fall in line
Im tired of hearing people fight against what they want. You know who supports ranked choice voting? The Green Party candidate for president.
Ah yes, Jill Stein, known to take Russian money. That’ll surely help things.
got a source on that? Or just the usual assumptions
Ive never seen any credible evidence of an actual transfer of funds to Stein from Russia, but there is definitely evidence that they support her in order to siphon votes from the Democratic candidate. U.S. elections affect the entire world and it is no surprise that enemies of the U.S. are going to use every resource they can to alter the results in their favor.
https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf
And if wishes were pennies, we would all be rich.
you wishing for a Biden presidency
Compared to Trump? You’re absolutely freakin right I am
but I cant compare someone else favorably to Trump.
Not really, because unless you can convince a majority of Americans to vote third party, which is unbelievably unlikely, then Biden or Trump are the options. On top of that, when you start pulling left wing votes away from Biden, it makes it easier for Trump to win unless you hit the point of majority support, which is again incredibly unlikely. I wish that weren’t the reality, but that’s how it is currently, and I hella do not want another term of Trump as I believe that’d be genuinely ruinous.
Yeah, don’t forget to vote for him though.
When China opens up it’s domestic market to international goods then the rest of the world should consider doing the same. Until then, match every barrier to entry.
Why?
If China can sell us cheap, efficient electric cars but we can’t sell them expensive gas-guzzling ICE vehicles, it creates an unfair competitive advantage for a Chinese fleet.
On the other hand, the cheap Chinese cars are the result of a long chain of slavery and exploitation
Go on…
Why should China be allowed to put in place barriers to entry but not the rest of the world?
So china is authoritarian and restricts their people’s market choices and the solution we are going with is just matching that? Pretty sus
Fair trade or no trade. The only way little kids learn to play fair is if the other kids stop playing with them when they cheat.
Fair trade or no trade.
Did the US ever have fair trade to begin with? It seems like we’ve got a long history of undercutting, outsourcing, and drop shipping.
the way to do it is a mile based shipping tax on all goods, but congress would have to do that. This is just dumb.
Edit: it does say these EV’s are subsidized
Why does Biden hate the Earth?
