I won’t tell them to be consistent, because consistent liberterians are scary.
You don’t like getting into very detailed conversations about age of consent laws and child pornography?
I’m not sure how it’s related to bikes, but I did get into conversations about age of consent on lemmy few times. And it seemed that people I talked to didn’t grasp concept of different countries having different laws.
What do laws have to do with morality?
very detailed conversations about age of consent laws
different countries having different laws.
Indeed, but nobody mentioned morality. Conversation was specifically about laws.
Downvotes show that many people calling libertarians bad words are unable to grasp such a simple difference.
Hey I didn’t call libertarians any bad words, I mean obviously bad words. I called them all Republicans trying to have sex with a Democrat. That’s it. I don’t even know if it’s any more of a lie than wearing makeup is. Since you know, everyone fucking knows the deal.
I called them all Republicans trying to have sex with a Democrat.
From the point of view of an actual libertarian Republicans and Democrats are much closer to each other than both are to libertarians.
But there’s a weird kind of people in the New World thinking that libertarian is just something between the two, yes. Probably someone initially mixed up libertarian and libertine, and then it went out of control.
actual libertarian
fact: all actual liberatarians live in Scotland. With the True Scotsmen.
Probably someone initially mixed up libertarian and libertine, and then it went out of control.
No one is paying you to talk that way. Just a fyi.
because consistent liberterians are scary.
Really you haven’t lived until someone corners you at a party and explains how the Non-aggression principle applies to this stuff. It is deeply confusing and worrisome.
Consistent libertarians surprisingly get along well with unreformed Bolsheviks. They have a kinda similar picture of the universe, just mutually exclusive ways of dealing with it.
The libertarian-fascist pipeline is interesting to me. I can’t decide if they start out fascist but dream of a world where the rules don’t apply to them until they gradually get more honest or if they just have a very bad relationship with power so they can’t imagine a situation where they aren’t the one with the boot or the one being stomped on.
It happens another way usually - in libertarianism anything non-voluntary and any violence is bad. The ideal is a society with involuntary violent interactions being minimal.
First, just like with Bolsheviks, ends may justify the means (let’s build a totalitarian state which will fight capitalism, imperialism, conquer all the world and then make communism).
Second, and more often, different kinds of violence are not so different for a libertarian. As in - a normie might agree that they owe something by social contract that they hadn’t signed and can’t refuse. For a libertarian that’s bullshit, and the legal systems built by non-libertarians don’t allow them to argue their point - somebody else decides for them and says they are obligated to obey. (“Sovereign citizens” are basically libertarians who believe in proving a libertarian position through normie laws, which is nonsense, you can’t win by rules defined by your adversary.) So “if there’s going to be violence, then let it be our violence to our ends”.
From the libertarian point of view the world is fascist in general. So they (libertarians gone violent) are trying to change it to good, while playing by its rules. It’s sort of a revolutionary logic, which, again, is similar to that of Bolsheviks.
so they can’t imagine a situation where they aren’t the one with the boot or the one being stomped on
They can imagine that pretty well, but from their point of view they sort of already are expected to be stomped on in a non-libertarian world.
I hope I’ve explained it well.
Maybe they want to live in a world where someone will sell them a girlfriend that the government won’t make them put in a car seat.
Lolitarianism is full dog eats dog to an extent no government has ever tried. It promises to reduce every human relationship to transactional at best, brute force more likely. You aren’t going to call the police on abusive parents when you know the children will be homeless as a result. A crushing nightmare where property holders know that all that want to eat need to go through them.
What kinda fascist wouldn’t want that? Imagine the power they would hold, fully backed by the state.
Maybe they want to live in a world where someone will sell them a girlfriend that the government won’t make them put in a car seat.
Maybe I’m a green dinosaur.
It promises to reduce every human relationship to transactional at best, brute force more likely.
One should learn about libertarian ideologies from people practicing them, and not from their circlejerk partners.
It obviously doesn’t. It doesn’t specify anything except voluntarism and use of force being taboo, thus it allows even ancom if those ancoms don’t try to ancomify people who don’t want to join their communes.
brute force more likely.
Brute force is the least acceptable thing in libertarianism, everything else has smaller priority, so obviously not.
You aren’t going to call the police on abusive parents when you know the children will be homeless as a result.
They’ll be adopted or will live in an orphanage, of course, and not that.
A crushing nightmare where property holders know that all that want to eat need to go through them.
No. There’s nothing to make zoning laws in ancap and other similar regulations allowing the weird real estate market some countries have.
What kinda fascist wouldn’t want that? Imagine the power they would hold, fully backed by the state.
I dunno, I don’t see your visions because you didn’t share the stuff.
r/libertarian seems kinda anti liberty
Fuktards.
Just casually scrolled through your post history a bit. You are an incredibly aggressive person.
Libertarians: people too stupid to fully understand their own ideologies
Libertarianism is for the philosophically lazy,or people born into a super conservative family and can’t handle the cognitive dissonance caused by realizing that liberalism is the more Christian political ideology. Source: I’m from UT.
It’s just a smokescreen for selfish/embarrassed economic liberals. This was the man that coined and defined Libertarianism. Right wingers need not apply. The modern “libertarian” party is a necrophilic oxymoron.
The crazy part is how much politics has evolved since Libertarianism was founded. Now it’s flooded with a bunch of right wing social agendas with the worst economic policies.
Grover Norquist should be who you link to now. He’s the guy who hates government so much he wanted one so small he could drown it in a bathtub. He’s also the reason their economic ideas are so embarrassingly bad the party never gets taken seriously.
He’s just an acolyte of Milton Friedman and Murray rothbard. Not all that special himself. But yes all the evolved “libertarians” evolved backwards.
He was surely aware of the Mormons getting the snot kicked out of them by the Army right? If they couldn’t make a special rules enclave for their religion, what hope does an Anarchic commune state have? Some things are just better as thought exercises to apply rather than actual goals.
Such a mishmash of words that have no business together anarchiv commune state?! What the hell even is that. That’s not at all what anarchists Etc advocate for. Anarchists further are not passivists. And anarchist can absolutely organize for their self-defense. There’s nothing ideologically stating they can’t. Though it is ideologically opposed to becoming a state in the terms of nation states.
Do you know what anarchism is beyond angsty teens and pejorative colloquialisms of Chaos?
I completely concur, I had personal experience with this. In my case, rural Georgia.
Libertarians are ultra-edgy conservatives who realized that typical conservative talking points are far too easy to refute and find contradictions in, and that being a conservative makes you look bad. They’re people who are close to understanding the ways which authorities/the establishment work against the people, but are too brainwashed with conservative/anti-worker/bigoted propaganda to be able to adopt a more mature worldview – as long as they participate in/agree with culture war garbage like transphobia and anti-feminism/anti-SJW propoganda, they’ll never be able to “agree” with any sort of leftist ideology. Plus they’ve never actually had taxable income so they really buy into all the false information & propoganda about taxes.
The conservative -> conservative libertarian -> ancap -> social/environmental libertarian -> socialist pipeline is VERY real, and it’s usually 1:1 with middle school -> early high school -> high school -> new-fledged adult -> experienced adult, for suburban white kids growing up in a conservative area. The less you’re shielded from reality, the more you start to agree with leftist ideas (even hardcore brainwashed conservatives completely agree with leftism in practice as long as they don’t know it’s leftism).
They’re just conservatives who want to be able to smoke weed and fuck children.
Actually scratch that; conservatives already want to do the latter.
They already do the latter. They want to make it legal beyond child marriage.
Woke mods can’t handle facts and logic
Ironic that Libertarians are banning things in their own subreddit.
Not at all, there’s no such thing as a right wing libertarian. Just liberals who think their girlfriends shouldn’t need carseats.
My ideals are left lib, and I hope that social structure becomes feasible beyond small populations in the future. That said, leftism is centralized economics. And if you centralize that, you wind up with authoritarianism.
I hope trustless and decentralized protocols make up for the inefficiencies in the long run, we’re just starting to see technology catch up to make up for the inefficiencies of decentralized economics
Hmmm and who controls the tech allowing this decentralized society?
No one, there are already plenty of protocols defined for distributed computing and are made open source. In a hypothetical lib left social network, If you want different networks, that’s fine, you just have to make your own protocol. It’s like how countries shouldn’t have borders, or how computing platforms shouldn’t lock you in or out of others (take apple/Mac OS as an example, versus Linux)
Then it’s up to individuals to verify the source code and choose to be a node operator. Not everyone needs to be a node operator, just enough on that the common skilled worker can partake should they need to
If you don’t like the “rules of governance” of whatever network you’re in, that’s fine, go to a different one you do like, or make your own with your own rules. If it’s actually a better system of “decentralized digital government”, you’ll attract people into your Network.
Consumer grade tech is more than capable of achieving this. You don’t need cpus with 2nm transistors (which are heavily gatekept by oligarchs), there’s plenty of open software and hardware protocols/designs to prove not only this concept works, but has been done before by now.
The only problem in the past was with solving the identity problem and preventing Sybil attacks, but that’s becoming less of a concern for other reasons (which I could elaborate further on)
That works for social media like Lemmy but what about tech for trading goods or keeping the lights on? What about the Internet infrastructure?
This a great idea to build off of and advocate for rights. But it’s as possible in reality as the classical liberal “state of nature”.
So, I emphasized trustless and decentralized in social organizations. “It just works for social media” isn’t exactly addressing what I was getting at. For example, Lemmy has a bot account problem. All that freedom makes it harder to prevent that problem.
But if you’re talking about how a government is a system of voting bodies that authorize some action given state (policy), and authority is delegated by some means - say, voting - then the botting problem of Lemmy is not just “something that doesn’t work”, it’s a critical failure which would enable fraud.
So, when I brought up Sybil attacks, I was trying to avoid a long winded digression including arguments from Microsoft on Decentralized ID. But the point being, it can be decentralized. Policy is action given state but action is delegated to people inevitably. But when you vote, would you rather trust a person to count those votes or a trustless automated system?
I’m talking about you said you want to use tech “to make up for the inefficiencies of decentralized economics”. It’s not about making open source software that works. That’s easy. The question is who controls the wires? We can already see where ISPs and countries can check everything passing through their system. What’s to prevent someone from gaining control of a critical mass of physical nodes and blocking traffic from anyone who doesn’t pay them a “fee”?
You’re talking about the software but you’re forgetting that it all runs on hardware somewhere in a windowless building. Even if you decentralize that, you’ve still got the problem of gatekeeping. How long before each node requires .1 pennies per packet? How good is long distance trade going to be when just making the offer costs a significant amount?
That said, leftism is centralized economics.
<john cena> Are you sure about that? </john cena>
You should tell that to the Democratic Socialists, or the Social Democrats, or Marxists, or actual Libertarians, or anarchists, or communists. Literally I think the only group on the left. That is significantly centrally organized are Marxist Leninist. Every group on the right however depends on a central authority to make their economy fesable.
Either this is projection, or you don’t know what left is. Which if you are a fellow American is absolutely understandable. They did a lot to dumb us down and make us afraid to look to any groups that weren’t capitalist or fascist. To help us meet our needs. That red scare shit is still prevalent to this day. Though the Marxist Leninist did hand them the talking point on a platter post world war II. The rest of the left just got smeared with it unduly.
I said it’s feasible for smaller populations - but to be comparable to the size and strength of a world power AND have that sort of left wing economics how many examples can you provide that don’t end up needing authoritarianism?
By the way, I have nothing against the left or authoritarianism. Some geographic regions lead to power dynamics where authoritarianism is just a more sensible form of management since constraints on necessary resources make it easy for militant groups to seize control.
Everything is feasible in smaller populations. That’s why government should generally be smaller and more granular. It is also why businesses should be smaller still.
Just because insecure bullies make something impractical doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Nor does it mean that they are right.
Yes, (most) everything is feasible in smaller populations (not nuclear maintenance for example). But without technology, they’ve been isolated, uncoordinated, and easily bullied by those larger organized authoritarian bodies. There are billions of people, and narcissists make up about 1 in 5 of those billions of people. A smaller subset lack basic empathy, and an even smaller subset are intellectually competent. Multiply whatever that probability is by billions of people, and you have a guaranteed concern for every single government on the planet.
I agree with wanting smaller businesses as well. Capitalism isn’t bad (communism is state capitalism after all), but corporatism is the emerging problem from right libertarianism that most people conflate as problems with capitalism
My point being isn’t that I don’t like leftism, they are my ideals. I just don’t believe we live in an ideal world, so practically I follow a different set of beliefs. Thay said, I do think leftism is compatible with libertarianism in a way that it can compete in the global arena. And that starts off with solving how a decentralized governmental body “identifies” one and only one person to their “identity” (otherwise you get Sybil attacks)
Regardless of how you do decentralized economy you need a strong regulatory body to keep it that way. Otherwise you just end up right where we are now again.
Yes and Humanity has done it for thousands of years without a large centralized National body. Anarchism is not without an ability to regulate. What do you think anarchism is?
We also didn’t have a better way of doing math than an abacus for thousands of years. If Anarchy could regulate then we wouldn’t need all these laws about minimum wage, not using children as disposable machine tools, and not putting rat poison in their food products. Clearly there is some need for a body that can do that. And at that point, You’ve got a large centralized national body again because you’re going to need to vote for who you trust to do it, they’re going to need the physical capability to do it, there’s going to need to be taxes to keep it all going, and oh look. We have a national government again.
I don’t care what PCM told you.
PCM?
That doesn’t cover the Republicans that want to be able to do drugs
Great read!
Bayer, heroin… More like Banyear
Ding ding ding! We have a winner. If Joseph Dejacqe were still alive. So called right wing libertarians would be the ones he was railing against.
Blame Grover Norquist for the absolute garbage right wing libertarian agenda now.
Nah, Grover is a nobody and not all that closely tied to the Liberals masquerading as libertarians. He was plenty up Republican asses as well. Milton Friedman and Murray rothbard share most of the blame. Along with the Koch brothers.
Found it amusing when Rothbard came out pro-immigration restrictions and worked so hard to explain why it wasn’t racist when he did it.
At least Rothbard realized as he was dying that the other conservatives were playing him for a chump.
And that’s always a good thing. I just wish they’d realize that before their mortality was before them and they had no chance to make amends. Lifetimes of damage are hard to un do.
The first time I heard the phrase “become ungovernable”, I assumed it was about home gardening and biking and reducing consumer waste. Imagine my disappointment when I found out it was actually about perpetuating institutional inequality and “fuck you, got mine.”
What do you mean? It’s still an anarchist thing.
Right-wing “libertarians” only know how to steal actual libertarian thought and shit all over it.
It’s just another thing right libertarians stole from anarchists. I’m pretty sure Emma Goldman was the originator of the whole “become ungovernable” thing (could be totally wrong about that so take it with a bucket of salt) and she definitely meant it haha. Part of that is gardening and various other community building acts, but the other part is very “seize the means of production” and assassinating authority figures. Less “fuck you, got mine” and more “give everybody everything or die”
Whoever posted that doesn’t understand libertarians.
If there were no government regulations, they would have nothing to complain about and their lives would be ruined.
Every Internet post about any political party is almost always about the wild caricatures people have in their head, because actually talking about politics IRL is a taboo because everyone is too damn scared and/or jaded to do anything but spout extreme bullshit online under an anonymous persona. All liberals are child-murduring blue-haired SJWs, all conservatives are rednecks bent on bringing back slavery and committing trans genocide, and all libertarians are secretly nazis or children who don’t get how the world works. The Internet says so.
I think you just probed my point for me.
I would say that whoever posted that understands libertarians perfectly, and maybe libertarians don’t understand themselves and libertarianism
But that’s communism
If there were no government regulations, they would have nothing to complain about
I promise you that if you put a libertarian into a place without government regulation, they will still insist that there is a secret government regulation responsible for their lives being shit.
You seem to confuse us with leftists. No, it’s not the patriarchy/white people keeping you down. We’re the first to tell you that you are responsible for your own success
they will still insist that there is a secret government regulation responsible for their lives being shit.
We’re the first to tell you that you are responsible for your own success
The problem is being the last to admit that you are responsible for all your own fuckups.
To claim credit for your successes you need to also admit fault for your failures, it goes both ways
I’m dying right now. You must be going through life with horse-blinders on or something.
What’s your point? Libertarians are all about taking personal responsibility
Ron Paul can’t even take responsibility for racist newsletters.
Edit: will you respond with “he didn’t have time to edit them” (undermining the personal responsibility point), or “Ron Paul isn’t libertarian” (No True Libertarian). I await with baited breath.
Dou you have a source on that? My experience with libertarians is “I do what I want, and if I cause problems for you, fuck you” not “I’m personally responsible for my actions and the effects they have on my surroundings”.
Also, you blindly missing the point, and then dodging it instead of admitting you missed the crux of the issue was just chef’s kiss perfect.
Keep on assuming we just don’t understand, despite libertarians spewing their shit all over the Internet for decades at this point.
Yet people still call us Republicans who smoke weed.
If you’ve been spewing your shit all over the Internet for decades and people still think that, then either:
- Your outreach efforts don’t work
- You actually are, because that’s how you behave in practice no matter what you babble about when proselytizing
People still think bisexuals are gays in denial. People still think there are two genders. It’s hard to escape binary thinking
Sadly, I think you’re probably right. I used to tell them to go to Rwanda if they wanted to live in a tax-free utopia, but Rwanda has taxation now what with it having a more or less functional government now.
You gotta wear a helmet though in some places, and depending on where you are you may have to do much more than that
Gotta keep one hand on the handlebars
Gotta have a light
CAN’T RIDE WITH TWO PEOPLE ON THE SAME SEAT
YOU HAVE TO USE FUCKING HAND SIGNALS I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA NOT JUST AMERICA BUT TEXAS FOR GOD’S SAKE
(Fun fact, I actually met someone who got deported after getting stopped by the cops, originally, for riding at night without a light 🙁)
(Edit: Also… banning someone from the libertarian subreddit because they said something you feel like they shouldn’t be allowed to say, so you have to use your administrative controls to silence them, is frickin hilarious. Not that I am surprised.)
And it does require subsidies… pavement isn’t just magically there.
Subsidies and infrastructure are not the same thing though.
No but they’re closely related and often the same thing.
The whole concept of “economically productive downtowns subsidize white flight suburbs ability to exist” is because of infrastructure, but it’s basically a subsidy.
bikes don’t need pavement, just good wheels
Good luck with that, I highly doubt most of you have ridden off road, having pavement %100 helps with efficiency.
I wonder if someday they’ll make a bike that rides on unpaved mountains. Probably not.
Cool, good luck with that efficient ride. Tell you what go ride through the woods to get to the store and then let me know how much easier it is.
Ignorance is hilarious from you lot. You have street bikes and tires because… they’re more efficient that a mountain bike…but you do you.
have you considered strapping an electric moter on the mountain bike and comparing the human effort to a street bike?
Haha what a crazy idea, what would you even call that? A bike for mountains? A mountain-style bike? Don’t be fatuous!
Equally ridiculous would be of you made one for roads with gravel. Some sort of…gravel-friendly bicycle.
Hmm, a 40-80ft wide road that needs to support thousands of pounds of cars, or 8ft of bike path that only needs to support a few hundred pounds of pedestrians/bikers.
I wonder which needs more of a budget.
If everyone is on a bike, 8ft isn’t enough…also now you’re going to have even bigger cities since most people will need to return to the city from living further out.
If everyone is on a bike, 8ft isn’t enough
This is silly for multiple reasons
-
Bike paths have significantly higher throughput than roads
-
This is not a mutually elusive choice, we can have multiple modes of transport
-
Rail transport & busses are more than capable of helping to reduce the load
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I never once said “everyone should be on a bike”
also now you’re going to have even bigger cities since most people will need to return to the city from living further out.
This just makes no sense. The ratio of transportation types has little effect on city density, zoning is way more of a factor. And in addition to that, car centric infrastructure takes up significantly more space than other modes. Reducing car dependence would actually free up space.
-
Well, there is always the libertarian community at !libertarian@lemmy.world to post it to instead.
Tyranny!
Yeah, american libertarians call themselves the wrong thing. The more correct term I find would be anarcho-capitalist, which is just all around a completely non-viable economic and governance system.
Anarcho-capitalism is actually perfectly viable for a “functional” society. Goods will be made, and the people will be fed in accordance with the wishes of the ruling class.
It’s just not anarchism, and it’s not good. It’s just the capitalist class fully assuming the powers of state and production with none of the responsibilities to the people or any of those pesky human rights.
So, you know. Corporate Fascism.
But it would work. It has worked. American company towns weren’t far different from what the ancap dream ultimately is, and they were functional, as long as you don’t define functional as protecting human and worker rights and allowing for social mobility.
That’s fair enough I guess, I suppose I was defining functional as protecting various rights that technically aren’t necessary for an extant society. On the other hand, I very extremely doubt any of the self proclaimed libertarian anarcho-capitalists believe the actual end results of such a system are what would happen, nor would they want such a system to be the one they live under.
Libertarians are nothing but Republicans who dont want the baggage, anyway. So its hardly surprising that they act just like all the other right wing subreddits.
Americans are in such bad shape that they think liberalism is leftist, in 2024.
Missed putting a bit about how cars erode fourth amendment rights.
Unfortunately, in many places, bikes do as well. At least in the US
r/libertarian became the home for r/the_donald refugees. These people do not ride bikes and are immune to logic.
Isn’t there some PM or something somewhere that famously rides a bike everywhere in a car-centric country?
The idea of Trump riding around on a bicycle amuses me. Like a circus bear.
Biden famously takes the train.
Dubya likes mountain-biking (but that’s recreation, not transportation, and thus doesn’t count).
Biden rides bikes, too - there’s a video of him falling after failing to unclip.
Hmm… being clipped in implies recreational/sport cycling rather than utility cycling, though.
Yeah, just wanted to clarify.
Though I have commuted on my recreational/sport cycling bicycle, with clips. (My wife and I work at the same place, and she would play softball some afternoons - so I’d often pack the bike in the car, drive in together, then I’d ride home while she went to softball.)
Yeah, I’ve got some Crank Bros pedals on my utility bike that are flat on one side and clip-in on the other, and have clipped in while commuting. I’m well aware of how weird I am, though.
No ban on riding a bike? Apparently they never met MOM!
Libertarianism really is the most easily dismissed “ideology” of all because it can only work on the foundation of a governed entity like a country or state which it can suck the lifeblood out of.
It’s basically just thinkable as a LARP pastime for the ultra-selfish.
