Society’s got priorities wrong.
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most car travels are 1 person or sometimes 2 person
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the majority of car travels are quite short, less than 40km.
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many car travels are just to get some groceries or drop of a little package or just say “hi” to someone, carrying nothing but themselves.
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cars are fucking expensive, to buy and to maintain
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accidents become way worse with heavier vehicles
Microcar is a valid answer to all of these, while still being sheltered from weather.
How are urban places (i’m in Belgium) with almost permanent super heavy road traffic congestion, bad climate statistics, high polution values, very limited available space left, no self-sustaining energy production and high traffic accident statistics still pooring in billions and billions in subsidies year after year into “regular” big heavy SUV-like vehicles instead of these? It’s beyond my comprehension. The only real valid reason i somewhat get is the collective scare of being in a crash and not wanting to be in the smaller vehicle. We could save the climate, we choose not to.
- MICROLINO: 17.990 €
- OPEL ROCKS: 8.699 €
- CITROEN AMI: 7.790 €
- RENAULT TWIZY: 13.000 €
- FIAT TOPOLINO: 9.890 €
A lot of people here casually spend more on a sunday racing bike every few years for fucks sake.
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The twizy is old, and nobody uses it.
The topolino, and opel rocks are a citroen ami, it’s just a rebrand.
The next generation of twizy is smarter, it will be a micro cargo car, it will be for deliveries in cities.In Japan there is something similar they have a class of cars called kei car and it is not as small but close and have limited engine size like under liter for combustion variant and some other rules that they have to comply and those are less taxed and much cheaper but what suprised me at least in cities i visited last year still majority of the cars there was the regular ones
I have looked it up on wiki and it looks amazing i would maybe own a car myself if we have something similar here in europe or maybe not because i live in old and small city and here you can go almost anywhere by walking https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car
Those look interesting as they keep their utility as a car (trunk, four seats, …).
Half of these are literally a citroen ami with a different plastic shell
That doesn’t make it a less good vehicle for how most people use their vehicle every day.
Hmm, I wonder how many of these cars are used to replace existing ones…
Most of the micro cars I see are parked by a highschool so to me it seems like people view them as a stop gap between no car and car ownership and not as a way to replace existing cars.
It’s making cars more viable, especially to young people and I fail to see that as a positive thing.
Here in italy they are mostly bought because you can legally drive them with the license you can get at 14y; essentially it’s used as a car to get to high school/ university where you rarely can find parking spots.
In France, they can be driven without a driver’s license if they don’t go faster than 45km/h, so they are exclusively used by alcoholics.
France. Not even once.
Okay, that’s stupid.
The very few I see around are either elderly people (it’s an excellent vehicle for them) or local firms buying it as a marketing gimmick.
Why would you only put expensive European brands here? There are Chinese cars like this for 5000€ that have sold millions in China.
Maybe since they are from Belgium and Chinese EVs currently play no role in the larger European market? There are maybe 10 vendors importing Zhidou cars in all of Germany, for example. Even if a buyer is aware of Chinese brands, they’re not as readily available as domestic / European brands, with Chinese products also still fighting with their perceived quality.
Why not improve your comment and simply post some of these brands, along with sources on where to get them?
I moved to Germany a while ago, so here is my contribution:
https://greenspeed-online.de/produkt-kategorie/elektrofahrzeuge/
My point is just bringing awareness to the existence of cheaper alternatives to the same product. Thank you for your contribution of places where people can actually get these cars! And yeah, the prejudice against Chinese electric cars is outdated at this point, they’re as good as European ones for a fraction of the cost.
Are Chinese vehicles up to European safety standards? Could you share the characteristics of the vehicles you are referring to?
Euro NCAP (European New Car Assessment Programme) is an independent organization that evaluates the safety of new cars in Europe. Here are some key aspects of the vehicles they assess:
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Crashworthiness:
- Frontal Impact: Assesses protection for occupants in a head-on collision.
- Side Impact: Evaluates protection in a side collision.
- Pole Impact: Tests the car’s safety when it crashes into a rigid pole.
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Safety Assist Technologies:
- Autonomous Emergency Braking (AEB): Tests the vehicle’s ability to automatically brake to prevent or mitigate a collision.
- Lane Keeping Assist (LKA): Evaluates systems that help keep the vehicle in its lane.
- Speed Assistance: Assesses systems that help drivers comply with speed limits.
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Pedestrian and Vulnerable Road User Protection:
- Evaluates how well the car protects pedestrians in case of an impact.
- Tests include pedestrian head, pelvis, and leg impacts.
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Rescue and Extrication:
- Examines how easily occupants can be rescued after a crash.
- Assesses availability of information for emergency services.
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Child Occupant Protection:
- Tests the safety features for child passengers.
- Uses child dummies in various seating positions to evaluate protection.
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Driver and Passenger Protection:
- Evaluates protection levels for both the driver and adult passengers.
- Includes assessment of airbags, seat belts, and overall structural integrity.
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Post-Crash Safety:
- Assesses features that assist after a crash, such as eCall systems that automatically alert emergency services.
These characteristics highlight the comprehensive approach Euro NCAP takes to evaluate the safety of vehicles sold in Europe.
Pretending that the EU cares about the safety of people in the first instance is laughable, most of these tests are performed at high speed crashes which you wouldn’t expect to have in the type of trips that a tiny EV with an autonomy of 170km would perform.
If these were priorities, SUVs would be forbidden instead of promoted in Europe. They have lower visibility, they hit people higher up in their body which increases damage, they’re heavier so the occupants of the vehicles they crash against are hurt more severely because of conservation of linear momentum, and they consume more fossil fuels so they increase pollution and global warming. How well a vehicle will handle an impact against a pole at 100km/h isn’t relevant to me.
And how well do second-hand, comparably-priced cars in the used market perform in these tests? Because it’s pointless to compare 5000€ vehicles to 20.000€ vehicles in terms of that.
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He is in Europe. The cheap Chinese cars are likely not available or road legal.
So let’s talk about Chinese cars which are much cheaper at comparable quality so that people understand that and push for the introduction of Chinese electric cars
there need to be taxes on larger vehicles where its .05% times the weight of the vehicle.
Were I live, you see them mostly in rural areas were public transport is scarce and you are basically stuck without a car. They have been proven to be a good alternative for seniors and young people that are not old enough for a full drivers licence (18).
I just had a conversation with my BIL, who told me that his company (a big tool manufacturer) and others in the area give them as some kind of signing bonus to new apprentices. They have recuting issues for a while and making young people mobile and independent from public transport seems to be effective.
I don’t really understand the benefit if microcar over golf carts.
Is my understanding correct?
Microcar
- built to car safety standards
- silly looking
- inconvenient to anyone above average size
- Don’t appear to too useful
- expensive
- fit at most a single person
Golf cart
- different class of vehicle, limited use
- can be built cheaper
- Already a huge variety
- easier access
- Useable by people without drivers licenses
- more usefulness options in sizes, cabins, even trailers
- cheaper
- can support families
Instead of proposing we all squish into tiny toy-like cars that are unsafe in car infrastructure, wouldn’t a better proposal be to organize downtowns around cheaper, lower speed golf carts that already have a variety of models and customizations? It would save everyone money, and paperwork, while filling the same efficiency improvements
You can’t use golf carts on roads.
But you can build developments with paths appropriate to golf carts and personal mobility, giving everyone more accessibility, safer local transportation, better use of land, better for the environment, etc. The trick is to connect them to some infrastructure, like a school, grocery store, restaurant, transit.
Why would you build additional infrastructure? And where? Instead of foot paths? Or instead of a green zone? The dumbest idea ever, mate.
How’s that relevant?
You don’t have to like the idea, but how do you not see the relevance of a real life example? There’s a town built around the idea of golf carts for local mobility. Sounds like a great idea
As another comment said, golf carts are not road-legal vehicles. So the law needs to be changed, and if it does, regulations would force those golf carts to be…
built to car safety standards
…So basically microcars.
You can’t rebuild dense areas all at once, and the benefits aren’t going to be apparent until you have a good portion of the town built to the new spec.
Or
Electric bicycle / electric bike / electric trike.
Half the price, double the mileage, double the speed+acceleration, half the charging time, half the cost, half the parking space, 1/4th the traffic.
They require a different license and skill in my country. Not everyone can ride bikes unfortunately, especially for fear of accidents. Regardless if that fear is well founded or not.
Agreed… however in countries like mine (Canada) the weather make those useful only half of the year.
PS: no, I am not like those hardcore people who can bike in the winter.
Well, some of these cars have no windows. And if you turned on heating (if they had them) you’d probably lose half of the power and range.
I’m from a northen country as well, where it reaches -30°C. Wouldn’t want to be in a kids’ shopping cart either.
I do not know the details… however, I could handle the cold as I can drive with my winter gear on… but biking seems impossible to me.
Even if we cannot use these in the dead of winter… we usually don’t get to the harsh stuff until mid December and by March is manageable again… with bikes, a normie like myself would have to skip November to May
I think for most people living in the main cities, this could work well … even great a second car for a fam… I just hate that 99% of my choices are big or bigger… and if I want EV I get to pay for the luxury packages I care little about
I get the points that you are trying to make but those micro cars are shit for the consumer for those prices. Yes, you have a small car that isn’t powered by fossil fuels, but
- You can’t transport jack shit. I’ve sat in the Opel thingy and while it’s comfortable for the two passengers you have literally no boot.
- If you consider one of those most likely you live in a densely populated urban area an can use public transportation as well. And one of the last things public transportation sucks, is transporting unwieldy stuff with you. And your mini car doesn’t provide a solution to this, so you have to pay a rental again.
- Those things are waaaaayyyy to expensive for what they offer. Atm you’re paying the early adopter premium to drive in a speed restricted, range restricted, and payload restricted vehicle for 10k.
I’ve been riding public transportation almost exclusively for the last 10 years or so and only had to consider getting a car for long distance travel and transporting shit. And at that point you’ll be better off spending 4-7k for an older station wagon than those things.
Also I’m not entirely sure how eco friendly it is to buy a brand new mini EV rather than driving around with a 15 year old car where nothing new has to be produced. Depends for sure on the yearly mileage. Which isn’t high in my case, but you for sure won’t be driving 15000 km a year in a mini car.
If we compare new regular and new EV? Sure, but then I’ll wait until real competitive alternatives in the low-price sector pop up.
Most people on most trips a vehicle carries jack shit. When you need that, you rent a larger vehicle.
Yes, urban area. No, public transport is shite. Very poor, very unreliable. It’s either car or bike for most people.
The here abundant big luxury cars ain’t cheap either. A porsche cayenne is not at all a rarity here. I’m quite sure it’s not the financial reason being the big one holding wider adoption of microcars back.
The government subsidizes the purchase of new vehicles in different ways here. It might not be economical to you at this point, but it all trickles down the market in 5-10 years time and then it will be very cheap and very available bottom of the second hand market if it’s what’s being supported with subsidies in the upper end of the market. For society as a whole in terms of eco friendliness, it for sure does make more sense people buying small new EV instead of big new luxury SUV-EV.
Man, your argumentation is all over the place. Adressing your points in the same order:
How often do you expect a person to resort to rental cars when they already invest 10k in a micro car with all running costs on top? A normal person that spends that amount of money doesn’t want to pay additional 50-200 Euro per trip for 5-10 times a year.
Generalizing that public transportation is shit doesn’t cut it if you want make a serious point. There are A LOT of people that could use public transport with minor habitual changes.
I’m talking to you that micro cars are too expensive compared to old station wagons and you jump to “big luxury cars are expensive”? Yeah no shit, Porsche drivers are for sure the general population and what micro cars are aimed at lmao. It is the financial reason for people with normal incomes: Nobody pays 10k for a glorified scooter with a roof.
it for sure does make more sense people buying small new EV instead of big new luxury SUV-EV
Yeah no shit, maybe you read my post again and see that I didn’t refute this point.
It might not be economical to you at this point, but it all trickles down the market in 5-10 years time and then it will be very cheap and very available
You do you. I’ll wait until proper low-end cars are out that are worth paying 10-15k. Shouldn’t take that long now that China has claimed this market and Europe and the US scramble to push out cheaper EV-cars instead of only selling bloated luxury EVs.
It is really cheap to have stuff delivered to your doorstep, by the way. You often don’t need to rent a big vehicle, what you need is to get something brought to your home.
Public transport just really is shit here. I’m sorry, it is. It sucks and everyone knows it. It’s used by underage pupils, poors and disabled people. Company is called DeLijn, you can look it up if you want to. It’s dirt cheap to use it, yet still very few people use it. It’s way too unreliable. Busses don’t show up unreliable.
I’m talking to you that micro cars are too expensive compared to old station wagons and you jump to “big luxury cars are expensive”? Yeah no shit, Porsche drivers are for sure the general population and what micro cars are aimed at lmao. It is the financial reason for people with normal incomes: Nobody pays 10k for a glorified scooter with a roof.
There are extensive subsidy regulations in place here, for example “salariswagen” with which employers can almost taxfree pay employees with a car in stead of money. This enforces an already strong way in which the “top of the new market” trickles down to the second hand market in 5-10 years. The cayenne is just to point out that this is not a poor region. Many people are wealthy enough for 8000 € to not be a very big spend. The government does subsidize other large SUV-like vehicle through this salary-car scheme. That trickles down very much. After 3 to 5 years of leasing the cars get second hand sold for still a decent price. 5 years later again. Another sale further down the road, it’s the station car you’ld currently rather buy than the microcar. The vehicles the government chooses to subsidize are a big influence in what will be available here in the second hand market in 10 years time from now. So yes, subsidizing small efficient cars over big SUV-style vehicles does make ecological sense.
Mate, this sub is full of yanks who are so blinkered in their worldview they have absolutely no clue how things are in other countries
Each point you make will be met with “Yeah but where I’m from…”
I mentioned once that everyone I know has a car but not one of them has an engine bigger than 1.6 litre. Stupid cunts called me a liar lol
They’re selfish cunts and will argue that black is white because of it. Let’s keep our adorable microcars for ourselves 😊
Yeah $10k can get a used Lexus in good shape. These things are just nowhere near cheap enough to not be able to carry groceries and kids. It’s the reason I never bought a smart car. $30k was just way too high for what it could do.
Be better off investing in mass transit, like you said
Them suggesting renting cars is also not super viable in most places. It takes at least thirty minutes to fill out the paper work and I don’t know anyone willing to do that for their weekly grocery trip
Them suggesting renting cars is also not super viable in most places. It takes at least thirty minutes to fill out the paper work and I don’t know anyone willing to do that for their weekly grocery trip
Yes this comes even on top. I did use a mix of train and rental cars for the last few years and man does it suck to regularly have to go through the rental process. Even if they don’t try to rip you off on old damages to get your deposit, paperworks and also having to drive to the hub is so inefficient.
The most eco-friendly car is the one already in your driveway. Use it until it dies.
A study I had read suggested that if you have a reasonable gas car already (e.g. sedan not a gas guzzler), the impact of driving your gas car on the environment is equal to the production of a new EV if you drive the gas car 50k miles or less in its remaining lifetime. My secondary car barely gets driven a few thousand miles a year, so it is better for the environment to just keep it running than swapping it out for an EV.
Why would you transport anything yourself when delivery from most shops is free? Doesn’t make any sense to waste time and money.
They’re also ugly as shit, which unfortunately will affect adoption more than people care to admit. But then again, the PT Cruiser and Nissan Cube sold, so maybe I’m wrong.
I like the looks of them
Me too, they look cute and friendly. Unlike most new cars.
You forgot to mention the GOAT of ugly cars, the Fiat Multipla.
I knew someone was eventually gonna name that monster; I didn’t know that people ouside of italy where aware of it. You know what’s the worst part? It’s actually very reliable, and drives decently; it’s just as ugly as the plague.
My parents had one when I was a kid, the second version was not to ugly and the interior was crazy comfortable for a family car.
It had 3 full front seat and 3 full seat in the back too.
I have a soft spot for that thing. It’s so ugly that it’s charming
Christ, the arguments…
“It not pretty. I liky BIIIG car, angry headlights, grrr”
I can’t believe I still have to explain this to grown ups, people have different tastes. Especially when it comes to car design.
If there was a “best looking car” there would be 1 design on the market.
Very few people in the US would buy this car. We can look at how unpopular EVs were until Tesla made them “cool.”
Like or not, outside of car and anti-car communities, most people only want what’s trendy and these aren’t trendy. I appreciate that people in this community like the car, but we’re not exactly a majority in the US, and I live in the US so that’s the market I care about
You’d have a much easier time funding mass transit here than getting the average American into one of these.
Ah fuck, I keep foegetting that the world = US. My bad. Thanks for representing “the average american”.
Saying “These are ugly, that’s why no one’s going to buy them” is rage-bating.
The american fragile-masculinity-compensator-3000-supertruck enjoyers might hate these, but they’re just a minute subset of a subset of the drivers in the world.
Feel better? Any more strawmen you’d like to dress me up as?
Hold up, you think a 5+seater monster is an alternative to a 2-seater microcar?
And you think that because the 2-seaters “are ugly” , people buy 5-door wagons? You’re high, right?
What is this logic, jfk…
Your logic is that people outside of the US will buy these. Yet they sell like shit in Europe. No, you brought up trucks. I and the person I responded to we talking about sedans and wagons. Fuck off troll
The funny thing is that those cars are available and no one buys them because they don’t fit with the objectives of the car buyer.
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Safety is poor - especially if there are traditional cars on the road.
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They are missing most ability beyond “go there”. What about carrying things to and from places?
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Can I never go camping again? Where does my dog go when we camp?
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Am I not permitted a family?
The use cases for micro cars is very limited to “getting a person to a place” but shit for all other use cases. Let’s move to a metro/rail solution and allow vehicular travel for use cases (rentals for parks, road trips, etc.)
Agree these vehicles are nothing more than hypothetical horseshit.
Where do my kids go, on the roof? What about all their shit? How about the things I’m taking with me like shopping, the wallpapering table my Dad wants to borrow, the ladder of his I’m taking in return, the plants I’ve bought and my dog? Those examples are from just today, which my wee civic had no bother hauling. I’m not renting a vehicle every time I need to do everyday tasks.
I get what you’re saying but by that same logic I can just hand waive all of those away by saying they don’t fit my specific life case use.
I would have loved to have one of those when I was in college and just needed it to go to school and work.
I couldn’t afford a regular car so I just took my cities shitty public transportation which added a couple hours to my commute. I didn’t even live far from school and work it was just that sucky.
I think there’s definitely a space for those cars in modern society. I would love to have one to just go to the store and regular commute. I looked into the micro line they just aren’t available in my area yet.
The ideal use case for these vehicles - short, local trips with a single person and no cargo - is better served by improving public transport, not using a mini car.
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Hate how inefficient the market is, mostly because of alcohol and now mobile phones while driving, safety has made larger cars more marketable. I don’t trust my fellow Americans to drive properly and not crash into me with their oversized trucks that never do any trucking work
That sounds like you guys over there get into serious traffic accidents regularly. The last few accidents in our family (as far as I know) were all collisions of someone bumping into our car from behind at very low speeds, hardly any less safe in a smaller car.
What I would consider is if I can see a child playing if it sat somewhat close to the car while I’m behind the wheel. These kind of accidents are way too common in my opinion.
I’m not really fond of microcars. Every time I see one I’m like: “Just buy a bike it’s cheaper and it doesn’t look like a motorized dumpster!”. Not to mention that to drive one in France you don’t even need a driving license. Talk about a security hazard… My thinking is they’re a lot pricier than great top of the line E-bikes (hydraulic breaks and the whole shebang), you can carry as much as a cargo bike and for the rain, a waterproof coat and pants work just fine (tropical regions get a pass I guess).
First of all it’s tiny and limited to 45km/h which is the top speed of an e-bike in the states. I don’t want to be hit by a microcar, but I’d hate to get hit by a loaded class 3 cargo bike either. And I’d far rather either of those than some obnoxious dually equipped pickup truck.
Second of all, some people don’t want to be out biking in inclement weather… Or even at all. And that’s OK.
Small light electric vehicles like ebikes or electric microcars are a great way to supplement gaps in good public transit and walkable cities. On top of that, unlike full size electric cars which reinforce car dependence, these types of vehicles encourage small, slow streets for cars in urban areas, mixed with bike, walking, and public transit infrastructure.
You’re right, these are very good arguments. I’m just too biased towards bikes, so I become overly critical of microcars. The two are complementary modes of transport, for sure. Still, a compulsory driving license for microcars should be standard around the world.
They do have a license requirement, it’s just not a full drivers license. At least for anyone born after 1987. Before that, these vehicles were meant to save rural widows from starvation so they really had no requirement except for insurance. Here is more info!
I know what you mean though, anything that looks like a car based solution always looks like a trap to encourage more car dependence.
look at mr ablest here.
You know what sucks? Breaking my leg, and then hobbling to the bus stop in the rain to get groceries.
Looks like we are back to the 1950’s and the time of the “Smooch bubble” BMW Isetta. I always loved the look of this car.
Liebe für die Knutschkugel!
Generally love microcars, especially the 50cc variant that, here in Germany at least, are really cheap to maintain because you pay no tax beyond the initial vat and insurance is like 50€ a year. Sadly the cars aren’t all that cheap with newer models easily surpassing cheap regular cars, rendering them kinda moot.
The microlino is litterally modelled after this classic!
I’d pay for one of these. The wheeled smartphones up there? I think not.
BMW Isetta
Or, for our American audience, The Urklemobile
Oh my God that’s what it is! I know this was familiar. The front wall is a door.
How are urban places (i’m in Belgium) with almost permanent super heavy road traffic congestion, bad climate statistics, high polution values, very limited available space left, no self-sustaining energy production and high traffic accident statistics still pooring in billions and billions in subsidies year after year into “regular” big heavy SUV-like vehicles instead of these?
The answer is corruption.
