• GreatGrapeApe@reddthat.com
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    1 year ago

    There is still far too many people hurt by the Cold War or its fallout, which many Westerners forget lead to the deaths of millions, for any partnership with Russia to be anything other than tenuous.

    • SCB@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      far too many people hurt by the cold war

      And all of those people hurt are a result of the Soviet Union being a hell state.

      • GreatGrapeApe@reddthat.com
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        1 year ago

        The USSR was not the hellscape you think it was for many people and the decline of the second wealthiest nation brought about real struggles for people in the aftermath.

        • SCB@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          “The USSR was a good thing, actually” is maybe the worst possible argument you could have made here lol

          The unpleasant reality is, Russians, like the Chinese, have never, in all their long history, existed without authoritarian rule. Their people are culturally inured to it. They actively seek it. They’re broken, as a society, and only dissolving their society will cure them.

          Balkanize Russia and China. It’s the only way.

          • GreatGrapeApe@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            I did not say it was good I said it was not a hellscape. Just like China is authoritarian and yet hundreds of millions seem to be happy with it so were millions of Soviet citizens.

            You cannot overlook that there was a huge decline in the average quality of life for many/most immediately following the demise of the USSR. That harmed many many people.

            • SCB@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Their people like it because their culture clamors for strongman, authoritarian leadership. They’re ill, culturally.

              Everything about the USSR was objectively bad, just like being hooked on heroin is objectively bad. That some addicts fucking love heroin is immaterial.

              Detoxing is painful, and rather than detox, the Russian people relapsed.

              • iain@feddit.nl
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                1 year ago

                You have North Korea level indoctrination my friend. Stop seeing the world so black and white, you sound like a teenager.

              • hark@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Trump got elected in the US and a large chunk of the country still supports him. I guess that means the US has an ill culture that clamors for strongman, authoritarian leadership, or does that not count because of American exceptionalism?

                No, the reality is that bad actors can take advantage of instability to gain power and people will go along for a number of reasons (apathy, distracted by just trying to survive, hopes of stability, etc). The US made Putin possible by capitalizing on the collapse of the USSR through shock therapy of forced “free market” principles, creating the oligarchy that exists in Russia to this day.

                • SCB@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  American culture is susceptible to Trump because American culture is fundamentally distrustful of government. Without reason or rationality, Americans culturally believe their representatives do not represent them, even when faces with evidence to the contrary. This is, historically, because the US was settled and then massively expanded via immigration, by political dissidents, politically/religiously persecuted people, and radicals bent on “making their own way.”

                  While this leaves us susceptible to “strongmen,” it also leaves us susceptible to populism of all kinds, and is a constant pressure that rational people must struggle against in order to build effective governments.

                  Before Trump and Sanders, there was the Tea Party. Before the Tea Party, Ross Perot had a fighting chance. Centuries ago, the Know-Nothings were essentially Trumpism without Trump.

                  Every culture has weaknesses and externalities. The offset in the US is a federal government that usually keeps these people in check. In China/Russia, their federal government is the problem because of their cultural inheritance.

                  • hark@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Okay, so you’re saying the US actually is susceptible to strongman, authoritarian leadership and it’s not just a Russian culture thing. Also, what’s up with you equating Trump and Sanders? You don’t seem to be making any sense or have a cohesive point.

          • hark@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Balkanization is divide and conquer bullshit. Why do you think the US commits to keeping the states together even though red and blue states are supposedly so much different from each other?

            • SCB@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              The US is a very different case, in that the state/federal divide and disagreement is almost entirely illusory, and those arguing for more state control are just using slanted language to hide their desire to persecute others.

              There has never been an instance of Americans fighting for dissolution of federal power where they have not also wanted to use that power to persecute others.

              The opposite is true is Russia.

              • hark@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                None of that has anything to do with breaking apart a country to make it weaker, which is entirely the point of the balkanization argument.

                • SCB@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  No one wants to conquer Russia. No one has wanted to since Napoleon. Even Hitler’s dumb ass only invaded out of paranoia.

                  Personally I want Russia balkanized because the only thing holding that mess of a state together is authoritarianism. I’d much rather see a whole lot more liberal democracies in place of a single Russian country.

                  Same with China.

                  • hark@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    There more than one way to conquer a land, it’s not just a matter of occupying it physically. According to you, they resort to authoritarianism because of culture. How would splitting up the country change that instead of simply making a bunch of smaller authoritarian governments? In fact, the situation would be worse because a bunch of smaller authoritarian governments bordering each other would be more likely to go to war. Of course, that’s an intended consequence of balkanization: the weakening of those countries.

          • GreatGrapeApe@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            Im not on hexbear and you should try talking to some people who lived through it. Not everyone hated it all the time even my former boss who did time in a gulag has mixed opinions on it.