not that I don’t believe you, but the reason I asked for studies/sources is I expect to be flooded with stories about how people knows someone who knows someone who knows someone where it didn’t work once or twice (respectfully, this is what your story boils down to), and I hope you won’t be insulted if I can’t consider that a good representation of a much-maligned part of society.
I literally have a study which shows what you’re asking in the difficulty of rehousing homeless people. Google what I told you to Google. Why do people read half a comment?
the study you mentioned, but refused to link to, or quote, agrees with me and not yourself, I quote:
a longitudinal study
in London and three provincial English cities of resettlement outcomes over
18 months for 400 single homeless people. A high rate of tenancy sustain-
ment was achieved: after 15/18 months, 78% were still in the original
tenancy, 7% had moved to another tenancy, and 15% no longer had a
tenancy. The use of temporary accommodation prior to being resettled and
the duration of stay had a strong influence on tenancy sustainment. People
who had been in hostels or temporary supported housing for more than 12
months immediately before being resettled, and those who had been in the
last project more than six months, were more likely to have retained a
tenancy than those who had had short stays and/or slept rough intermit-
tently during the 12 months before resettlement. The findings are consistent
with the proposition that the current policy priority in England for shorter
stays in temporar y accommodation will lead to poorer resettlement
outcomes, more returns to homelessness, and a net increase in expenditure
on homelessness services.
I believe you’ve misinterpreted their findings completely. They’re saying those who start in temporary supported housing have better attainment, which Is exactly what I was saying. Just giving people keys and wishing them luck results in worse outcomes, they need halfway homes to acclimate to independent living first. People need support as well which is the entire frickin point of the conversation you muppet
Smh.
Also, I’m not your personal googler. If you want to know if there are studies look for them mate. People just think saying “source?” is enough to win an argument
you buried the “extensive further help” clause a little, and your use of “extensive” makes it sound onerous, which is why I responded assuming you were dead against it.
If you had said something like “While I agree housing can help, but there does need to be some support as well” - I probably would’ve taken it differently.
You are right that I could have been more generous in interpreting your use of the word “extensive” as negative.
It massively depends on the individual in question. Note that I NEVER said that a house and leg up wasn’t all that some need. In fact in the majority of cases that’s fine, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are some who just throw all the help in the world back in the face of those that try and help.
I think between their argument and your own, yours is the one in more need of citation. Which is more likely, that giving a house to everyone will solve homelessness or that some people have problems beyond just being homeless? He’s not saying that it wouldn’t help some people, he’s just saying that there would still be some number of people who need help beyond this.
I mean, to me, “if someone gives them a house they won’t be homeless” makes way more common-sense than “if you give someone a house they will not live in it”
edit to say: I want to get ahead of “gotchas!” like “it doesn’t solve this problem of this one guy my mate’s Da’s landlord’s daughter heard about through a crack in the wall about a homeless guy who set fire to his free housing!” as you can’t legislate or plan for one whackjob who may not even exist.
“Participants were screened for a low risk of mental health challenges and substance abuse.” That’s the CNN article you linked. So thats at least one of these articles that is absolutely irrelevant to the conversation. Gish galloping is such a terrible debate technique.
It’s not a gish gallop, it’s a demonstration of a wide range of applications and environments has a net positive impact.
My original question was “which studies…?” (note plural) which sets the context for a reply with multiple sources
If you demand that anyone produces one, single study that solves the problem: impossible, regardless of topic, field and context. Nothing is provable by that standard.
Secondly, that one CNN article mentions that it was on a subset of people does not destroy the entire premise.
I am still waiting on counterexample studies, if you think providing several is beyond a reasonable ask, two would be acceptable.
I’m not interested in fucking source wars or arguments of attrition. Of course it’s a Gish gallop posting that much without context. It’s just lazy bullshit.
The point is that’s it’s the mentally ill and the drug addicts are the people who aren’t going to benefit from just chucking money at them. They need real help that goes beyond that.
If you don’t believe that there are people out there that are incredibly difficult to re-home, that is on you! Nobody is even saying it’s the majority of people, but some people cannot cope with living “normally”. They usually have advanced schizophrenia.
Would it blow your mind if I told you that some beggars actually have homes?
We’re not talking about beggars we’re talking about the homeless. it’s ironic to change topic while accusing me of logical fallacies.
I’m sorry you’re not interested in how these ideas have actually been implemented and the level of success they show, but to me that’s the only interesting part. It’s all well and good saying “this solution will/won’t work” but it’s, to me at least, only the testing that matters.
As I just asked someone else: do you really believe that a single failure in a system means the whole thing isn’t worth it? the example I used above is penicillin. As at least one person is allergic, and at least one person experiences no effect: does that mean that penicillin is considered ineffectual to bacterial infections? That seems silly to me, which is why I ask what your threshold for success is here.
Well, I asserted my opinion, asked for a counterexample, wasn’t provided with any, was challenged to provide sources for my argument, did. In context I think its a reasonable response.
I am have yet to be linked to a single, non-hearsay argument.
ok here’s my argument: most homeless people aren’t like you describe, these kinds of programs benefit the vast majority and the tolerance of failure lies within expected bounds to believe the program is an overwhelming success (as evinced by the links above).
Although I fail to see how that couldn’t have just been taken as read by any sensible reader.
That’s fair enough and I never denied that. But some people think solving homelessness and hunger is just a matter of printing 1 trillion pounds and could be done by any politician. You know the sort.
You don’t know how peer reviewed science works, and aren’t worth talking to.
The fact that you think that providing housing doesn’t work, when we have multiple countries worldwide that prove it does, just goes to show that you are a selfish bigot that doesn’t want to solve the problem.
No it did not. Finland helped about half of the homeless people. And that’s a very generous estimate because it’s only those homeless people who are actually accounted for.
This is because they only select those who can be housed and are already part of the welfare system. It’s also not just putting people in an apartment. There is still a lot of drug and debt counseling and mental help provided in the background.
And that’s for the model country for the housing first approach.
No, there aren’t statistics about these people. Just experiences and the experiences of others who work with them.
Many homeless people refuse to take up help like housing because they do not want to cooperate with helper organisations. And they also don’t want to get interviewed:
https://idw-online.de/de/news765112
We don’t even really know how many there are because there are no reliable statistics. How would you count them anyway?
Best results means it works for about half of homeless people.
For the other half, they need a step-by-step approach to have them able living in a home again (or for the first time in a long time). You can’t just put them in an apartment with an address for counseling and that will work out.
Source: you can read about that in the PDF above, for example. Or any other study about the homeless which usually mentions at least the many who fall through the cracks.
These are migrants without refugee status and people with severe drug and alcohol abuse issues or other mental illness. It won’t work to “put them out of sight out of mind”.
Homeless people aren’t a homogeneous group of people. And while it works for some, housing first is not the solution. Because it leaves an estimated half of them behind. It also omits that there a still a lot of help going on in the background. It’s not just give them a home and that magically solves all their problems. Far from it …
Even if it has issues, housing first solves far more problems than any other solution. If you are so opposed to housing first initiatives, then propose an alternative solution that will work better.
Why do you think I am against housing first? I never said that I am against that. I said it does not solve homelessness. You need additional systems in place to solve it.
I’m on mobile and can’t read German, I’ll have to wait until later to run those articles through a translator to see what they’re getting at.
But I do wonder about you saying we can only halve homelessness instantly, and the next quarter needs some help, and the next 10% needs a lot of help and after that things get more diffocult: that means it doesn’t work and isn’t worth trying at all
Wouldn’t halving homelessness be pretty damn successful?
If someone said “Penicillin solves bacterial infections” I would also say this is not true. There are bacterial infections which can’t be cured by penicillin and some people can’t take it at all.
They started the housing first approach in 2007. There is a steady decline in homelessness, so I would say it’s an important part of the new solution.
But if you look at the organisations which allocate the housing you see they also hired hundreds of extra personal, invested heavily in the help networks, anti-drug abuse and other programs.
Many of the housing complexes have staff on site or they visit the scattered apartments.
And Finland invested additionally into prevention methods to counter people getting homeless in the first place. They changed laws and built teams and places to help people not get homeless.
What do you call it than? It just seems wrong in the way it was put in the meme.
is that truly the case, or just a pervasive urban legend?
which studies support this theory?
My father in law and fiancee work for a homeless charity and his is their experience with many homeless people.
Just giving people a roof isn’t enough to solve their problems in many cases.
Google “preparing homeless people for independent living” and a UK based study should come up (I struggled to link as it’s a pdf download)
not that I don’t believe you, but the reason I asked for studies/sources is I expect to be flooded with stories about how people knows someone who knows someone who knows someone where it didn’t work once or twice (respectfully, this is what your story boils down to), and I hope you won’t be insulted if I can’t consider that a good representation of a much-maligned part of society.
I literally have a study which shows what you’re asking in the difficulty of rehousing homeless people. Google what I told you to Google. Why do people read half a comment?
the study you mentioned, but refused to link to, or quote, agrees with me and not yourself, I quote:
I believe you’ve misinterpreted their findings completely. They’re saying those who start in temporary supported housing have better attainment, which Is exactly what I was saying. Just giving people keys and wishing them luck results in worse outcomes, they need halfway homes to acclimate to independent living first. People need support as well which is the entire frickin point of the conversation you muppet
Smh.
Also, I’m not your personal googler. If you want to know if there are studies look for them mate. People just think saying “source?” is enough to win an argument
you buried the “extensive further help” clause a little, and your use of “extensive” makes it sound onerous, which is why I responded assuming you were dead against it.
If you had said something like “While I agree housing can help, but there does need to be some support as well” - I probably would’ve taken it differently.
You are right that I could have been more generous in interpreting your use of the word “extensive” as negative.
It massively depends on the individual in question. Note that I NEVER said that a house and leg up wasn’t all that some need. In fact in the majority of cases that’s fine, but that doesn’t change the fact that there are some who just throw all the help in the world back in the face of those that try and help.
Well yes, that much I do agree with.
I think between their argument and your own, yours is the one in more need of citation. Which is more likely, that giving a house to everyone will solve homelessness or that some people have problems beyond just being homeless? He’s not saying that it wouldn’t help some people, he’s just saying that there would still be some number of people who need help beyond this.
I mean, to me, “if someone gives them a house they won’t be homeless” makes way more common-sense than “if you give someone a house they will not live in it”
but asked and answered:
edit to say: I want to get ahead of “gotchas!” like “it doesn’t solve this problem of this one guy my mate’s Da’s landlord’s daughter heard about through a crack in the wall about a homeless guy who set fire to his free housing!” as you can’t legislate or plan for one whackjob who may not even exist.
“Participants were screened for a low risk of mental health challenges and substance abuse.” That’s the CNN article you linked. So thats at least one of these articles that is absolutely irrelevant to the conversation. Gish galloping is such a terrible debate technique.
It’s not a gish gallop, it’s a demonstration of a wide range of applications and environments has a net positive impact.
My original question was “which studies…?” (note plural) which sets the context for a reply with multiple sources
If you demand that anyone produces one, single study that solves the problem: impossible, regardless of topic, field and context. Nothing is provable by that standard.
Secondly, that one CNN article mentions that it was on a subset of people does not destroy the entire premise.
I am still waiting on counterexample studies, if you think providing several is beyond a reasonable ask, two would be acceptable.
I’m not interested in fucking source wars or arguments of attrition. Of course it’s a Gish gallop posting that much without context. It’s just lazy bullshit.
The point is that’s it’s the mentally ill and the drug addicts are the people who aren’t going to benefit from just chucking money at them. They need real help that goes beyond that.
If you don’t believe that there are people out there that are incredibly difficult to re-home, that is on you! Nobody is even saying it’s the majority of people, but some people cannot cope with living “normally”. They usually have advanced schizophrenia.
Would it blow your mind if I told you that some beggars actually have homes?
We’re not talking about beggars we’re talking about the homeless. it’s ironic to change topic while accusing me of logical fallacies.
I’m sorry you’re not interested in how these ideas have actually been implemented and the level of success they show, but to me that’s the only interesting part. It’s all well and good saying “this solution will/won’t work” but it’s, to me at least, only the testing that matters.
As I just asked someone else: do you really believe that a single failure in a system means the whole thing isn’t worth it? the example I used above is penicillin. As at least one person is allergic, and at least one person experiences no effect: does that mean that penicillin is considered ineffectual to bacterial infections? That seems silly to me, which is why I ask what your threshold for success is here.
You: you need to provide sources
Also you: I’m right, I don’t need sources, you’re moving the goalposts, ignore the fact that I have moved the goalposts.
Fuck you, and your bad faith bullshit.
A self proclaimed commie accusing me of bad faith arguments. Pretty rich.
A wall of links with no context does not make a convincing argument. It just looks like you randomly cherry picked stuff.
I wish people would get back to conversations backed up occasionally with data rather than source wars. Social problems aren’t an exact science.
Well, I asserted my opinion, asked for a counterexample, wasn’t provided with any, was challenged to provide sources for my argument, did. In context I think its a reasonable response.
I am have yet to be linked to a single, non-hearsay argument.
You don’t link arguments, you make them. Jesus have people forgotten how to talk.
If you think giving a schizophrenic drug addict thousands of pounds and a house will solve their problems, you’re beyond reason.
ok here’s my argument: most homeless people aren’t like you describe, these kinds of programs benefit the vast majority and the tolerance of failure lies within expected bounds to believe the program is an overwhelming success (as evinced by the links above).
Although I fail to see how that couldn’t have just been taken as read by any sensible reader.
That’s fair enough and I never denied that. But some people think solving homelessness and hunger is just a matter of printing 1 trillion pounds and could be done by any politician. You know the sort.
You don’t know how peer reviewed science works, and aren’t worth talking to.
The fact that you think that providing housing doesn’t work, when we have multiple countries worldwide that prove it does, just goes to show that you are a selfish bigot that doesn’t want to solve the problem.
I literally have a PhD in condensed matter physics.
Pretty much yeah. This is what Finland did.
No it did not. Finland helped about half of the homeless people. And that’s a very generous estimate because it’s only those homeless people who are actually accounted for.
https://www.ara.fi/en-US/Materials/Homelessness_reports/Homelessness_in_Finland_2022(65349)#:~:text=At the end of 2022,a decrease of 185 people.
This is because they only select those who can be housed and are already part of the welfare system. It’s also not just putting people in an apartment. There is still a lot of drug and debt counseling and mental help provided in the background.
And that’s for the model country for the housing first approach.
Homelessness in Finland is bit different to most countries. You are counted as homeless even if you are living at friend’s place or in an institution.
There are only around 300 actual homeless people. Everyone is given a place to sleep and live at.
deleted by creator
No, there aren’t statistics about these people. Just experiences and the experiences of others who work with them.
Many homeless people refuse to take up help like housing because they do not want to cooperate with helper organisations. And they also don’t want to get interviewed: https://idw-online.de/de/news765112
We don’t even really know how many there are because there are no reliable statistics. How would you count them anyway?
All housing first projects pre-select the people they give a home to. The reason is clear. They don’t have homes for everyone, so they take those which will give the best results. In Berlin, Germany they literally have to write applications for the project: https://www.berlin.de/sen/soziales/besondere-lebenssituationen/wohnungslose/wohnen/housing-first-1293115.php
https://housingfirst.berlin/aufnahme
And they need to already be in the welfare system!
The same goes for Finland, which is the model country for a housing first approach. Putting people who already are in the welfare system in homes with help offers has the best results. https://www.huduser.gov/portal/periodicals/cityscpe/vol22num2/ch4.pdf
Best results means it works for about half of homeless people.
For the other half, they need a step-by-step approach to have them able living in a home again (or for the first time in a long time). You can’t just put them in an apartment with an address for counseling and that will work out.
Source: you can read about that in the PDF above, for example. Or any other study about the homeless which usually mentions at least the many who fall through the cracks.
These are migrants without refugee status and people with severe drug and alcohol abuse issues or other mental illness. It won’t work to “put them out of sight out of mind”.
Homeless people aren’t a homogeneous group of people. And while it works for some, housing first is not the solution. Because it leaves an estimated half of them behind. It also omits that there a still a lot of help going on in the background. It’s not just give them a home and that magically solves all their problems. Far from it …
Even if it has issues, housing first solves far more problems than any other solution. If you are so opposed to housing first initiatives, then propose an alternative solution that will work better.
I’m waiting.
You can’t.
Why do you think I am against housing first? I never said that I am against that. I said it does not solve homelessness. You need additional systems in place to solve it.
I’m on mobile and can’t read German, I’ll have to wait until later to run those articles through a translator to see what they’re getting at.
But I do wonder about you saying we can only halve homelessness instantly, and the next quarter needs some help, and the next 10% needs a lot of help and after that things get more diffocult: that means it doesn’t work and isn’t worth trying at all
Wouldn’t halving homelessness be pretty damn successful?
Of course it is great but it won’t solve homelessness. Which is what the image suggests. And obviously it doesn’t.
What’s your tolerance threshold for a solution? One source I quoted elsewhere said it would solve up to 75% of homelessness.
People are allergic or immune to penicillin, that doesn’t mean that its not a solution to bacterial infections.
If someone said “Penicillin solves bacterial infections” I would also say this is not true. There are bacterial infections which can’t be cured by penicillin and some people can’t take it at all.
Understood. How should one phrase a vast majority success with a tolerance of a minority of failures in casual conversations?
I am not sure a vast majority success is correct if people interpret the concept literally (like in the meme).
Finland is the country with the best results, afaik.
These are the numbers of those homeless who are accounted for and got help (so missing those who are not in welfare for example and therefore the numbers are estimates): https://www.ara.fi/en-US/Materials/Homelessness_reports/Homelessness_in_Finland_2022(65349)#:~:text=At the end of 2022,a decrease of 185 people.
They started the housing first approach in 2007. There is a steady decline in homelessness, so I would say it’s an important part of the new solution.
But if you look at the organisations which allocate the housing you see they also hired hundreds of extra personal, invested heavily in the help networks, anti-drug abuse and other programs.
Many of the housing complexes have staff on site or they visit the scattered apartments.
And Finland invested additionally into prevention methods to counter people getting homeless in the first place. They changed laws and built teams and places to help people not get homeless.
What do you call it than? It just seems wrong in the way it was put in the meme.