I recently made a post about this topic but it caused a lot of controversy. I did not specify and used the broad term of sex work which probably made the interpretations so varied. For the purposes of this conversation, I want to focus on work that is consensual because obviously human trafficking or coercive sex is inherently wrong and exploitative. Some people even said that sex work is not valid labor which I personally found strange. I’m personally not a fanboy of the sex industry at all, but most people involved would say that the illegality of it exacerbates the bad situation that they find themselves in, and I cannot personally find a reason to be going against what the people involved are saying. And yeah it probably wouldn’t exist under socialism but at the same time, I think it is a huge mistake to go in with an iron fist and just say “I’m going to make everyone stop sex work right this instant because it’s not socialist” because this does not treat the underlying causes of it, which will only make it spring back up anyway.

And I’m not just expecting one type of answer but if I am making an error in applying dialectical materialism or Marxism-Leninism please let me know.

  • DankZedong @lemmygrad.ml
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    10 months ago

    I have guided sex workers and victims of human trafficking in a previous job. I don’t think I’m overreacting when I say that 99.9% of the people doing so are forced into it either through actual human trafficking or because of their conditions due to capitalism. If they had a realistic chance to espace that world and do something else, they would. For them, abolishing sex work AND guaranteeing their needs to live a worthy life is the most important goal to work towards to.

    However, a great minority of people in the sex trade industry do so because they want to do it. They do have the choice to stop whenever they want to do something else. For them, guaranteeing legal rights to make their work more safe is important.

    Now, this is where it gets tricky for marxists. On the one hand we have an extremely abusive situation that we cannot support. On the other hand we have a situation in which people are fighting for better working conditions, which we can and imo must support.

    I am still in favor of eventually banning sex work all together but right now we are in no position to do so while also guaranteeing safety and stability to an overwhelming majority trapped in the system. I think we should simultaneously focus on getting people out of the abusive system while also voicing our support for the sex workers who are fighting for better rights.

    • darkcalling@lemmygrad.ml
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      10 months ago

      IMO (woman here) those who do it “because they want to” and would do so in any circumstances including socialism are lazy. It’s a similar problem with people who would prefer to rob and steal than get a real job. Or deal drugs because narcotics pays well and seems little work. These are the same mentality of women who marry a rich man because it beats getting a job. Or an abusive man who gas-lights and controls girlfriends to work while he sits at home or drinks her money away. This is anti-social behavior. We are not here to coddle this mentality. And more importantly they are not going to make a lifetime career out of this. At some point these individuals who refuse to self-actualize, to work, to get an education are going to be drummed out by their age and/or inability to maintain desired beauty standards and where will they be then? Starting a career of useful labor in their 40s? Trying to get benefits while avoiding work? By the way, those who start to age out are incentivized and pushed with the option of engaging in ever more extreme, dangerous, degrading acts that other younger ones with options wouldn’t typically do. That’s a social harm.

      Now I’m not talking about the circumstances under capitalism though if you look into it a look of people say of many porn performers, those who knew them that they didn’t have a strong aim, strong aspirations for a career or themselves, they kind of just drifted into it. They didn’t wake up at 16 and think how great they were at touching themselves or whatever and think that’s what they want to do out of high school because they’re so skilled at it. It’s a fallback profession like flipping burgers or retail because they don’t have any better ideas or can’t get anything more skilled because of the job market (the latter of course not being what I would call consensual and actually a tragedy by any measure). Unlike those things it perpetuates the commodification of the female form, of women’s bodies. It perpetuates inequality and disharmony among the sexes. It sets up the idea that sex is something you buy, seeing a woman’s body is something you buy, attention is something you buy. That’s bad. As a woman, that is not good. Women will sell out other women, we’ve been doing it for centuries. There’s no more solidarity there than among men, maybe less sometimes it feels like.

      A woman worker beside a male one ceases to be his comrade, why? Because he sees her in terms of a commodity, not a human, not her skills, not her university education, but her body, how much it costs to view.

      Now some foolish people will claim they’re like therapists, but they’re not, they’re not trained and no psychology body Marxist (or liberal so far to my knowledge) would say this is an ethical thing to do that will help patients. And people claim some guys pay to talk to them but if guys really need someone to talk to it should be other men they know not strangers, women they have pre-existing platonic relationships with, and professional trained psychiatric professionals because you should get people the help they need, not exploit them for money and leave them dependent on you (which is the necessary action of these workers, to continue to draw an audience, to make people dependent on them for something they don’t need to survive nor does industry need it to keep the economy going). So the charade falls, these people are selling bodies, women’s bodies.

      And the greatest lie is that it’s the oldest profession. It’s not. That’s a lie. It hasn’t always existed and it can be abolished and should be.

      It is at best in the case of those who “want to” a case of people trying to turn a hobby into a career. I don’t think professional-career-gamers will exist under socialism, not unless it’s a formal televised or ticketed sport, without capitalist ad dollars and sponsorships the whole thing dries up. I think only a tiny handful of people will get there and it’ll be as unattainable as being a rock star. I also don’t think masturbating and chatting casually with strangers counts as necessary labor. It begs the question, these women are no better than others at erm their sexual tasks, basically none of them have any formal acting training, they aren’t trained therapists. The value is overwhelmingly in sexual interests and stimulation.

      I also am tired of everything being charged for and this perpetuates that late capitalist mentality. Human companionship should absolutely not be in that list. I miss the days of free software, now every jerk with every little piece of software that they spent a few hours on is charging $5 on patreon to use it. Why? Because of hustle culture, because of the idea nothing should be free. That society is owed jack shit by you. That you have no responsibility beyond what you are paid for. It’s a cynical, alienating, anti-social thought pattern. I’m not saying women are obligated to help men out in this area, because we’re not and goodness help you if you say otherwise as men need to help themselves first. I am saying if you like as a hobby being an exhibitionist then go and do so but don’t perpetuate the idea of paying for women and access to our bodies.

      Besides that it obviously provides cover for exploitation. Who’s to say for certain that person on the camera is 18? Hell, 18 year olds shouldn’t be able to do this. Brain development doesn’t really complete until you hit 23-25 or so. The very idea it is legitimate, not anti-social, normal, accepted will encourage underage girls to attempt to find ways to do it. It’ll seem easier, something they can do alongside school, something not regulated. The open market provides cover for the black market, we see that in the flesh markets of the Netherlands. Already there are girls who do this, they use social media, they use code words. This is terrible.