With apologies for voicing an opinion rather than linking an external article.
I am of the strong opinion that Remembrance Day had become at best grandstanding, and at worst, completely meaningless. There are phases tossed around like “Lest we Forget” or “Never Again”. But when Russia invaded Ukraine, we have effectively done the opposite (or very nearly).
Sure, we can send ammo so Ukranians can fight back, or host some of their forces for training. But the reality is, we are only marginally involved. We haven’t mobilized. We aren’t on war footing economically.
The root causes are many. But a combination of NATO’s article 5 protection only kicking in if we are attacked (rather than joining an already existing war), and the threat of nuclear retaliation, means we are paralyzed politically.
At a minimum: I would support direct involvement, whether that’s ramping up our own military, deploying specialists, reservists for minesweeping, stationing our own troops (meagre as they are) in Ukraine to directly support the fight. I would actually support much larger actions, including naval blockades or airspace closures but wholly understand that Canada cannot execute those on their own.
We cannot allow genocidal wars to be pressed in the modern world. And we should be doing everything we can about it. Right now, we’re doing barely more than nothing.
we are only marginally involved. We haven’t mobilized.
Stop right there.
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we cannot mobilize against another NATO member
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Ukraine isn’t a NATO member, and sadly our legal obligation is a matter of political debate. We are winning the debate, but it’s slow, and political opponents plan to use this support of a state they don’t value as a means to seize control on the next election
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even our hands-off, here-are-guns involvement is not without complaint and scrutiny.
The truth is, we forgot that Russia rules by its strength and we obviously have no clause about belligerent invasions terminating membership. And while Russia is a.member of NATO, no one will consider invading.
…which is good, as the only thing Russia spent its money on was its military. It’s like America, but with more corruption and less money to throw around.
This proxy war is already too much while it’s also not enough. It’s going to ruin our current leaders and plunge us into a populist nightmare the likes of which we’ve been seeing in America for a decade. Let’s not be more idiots voting without the facts, as we already have enough of those to damn us.
Uhhh, Russia isn’t in NATO… it’s quite literally the enemy of NATO.
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We cannot allow genocidal wars to be pressed in the modern world.
You’re aware of what’s going on in Gaza right?
I think in an increasingly multicultural Canada, the white-superiority, Eurocentric, colonialist values and perspectives that Remembrance Day conjures up feel outdated and oversimplified
That’s why I was so glad to see more feathers this year at the national ceremony. Honestly, even reconciliation aside it feels more familiar that way, and less like footage from somewhere in Europe.
The idea of a day to mark what happens when we let our guard down is good, but the implementation still needs to evolve.
Yes. And Ethiopia. And Sudan. And Myanmar. Doesn’t change the point dramatically, except that all of the above are usually framed as internal issues rather than external wars of aggression. There’s a legit conversation to be had about increasing peacekeeping forces to diffuse some other conflicts too.
I agree with defending Ukraine but isn’t the point of “never again” is to not have another war?
No, it is specifically about not having another genocide. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Never_again
Every single war is a genocide on population.
Let’s not water down the gravity of genocide. Hitting people with stray bullets is terrible but it’s a whole other level of fucked up when you round them all up and cut their limbs off with machetes because of their name or customs.
You’re watering down the impact of war, which unlike your meme genocide, happens quite literally perpetually for entire human history. Innocent men who just wanted to live a simple life, maybe build a family and that’s it, instead are forced to kill people they don’t know and die by people they don’t know because two narcissistic cunts who have too much power couldn’t come to an agreement.
Also you can go fuck yourself with your impact of genocide. Everyone acts like Holocaust is so horrible but when commies killed 50 million through a mix of sheer incompetence, lack of respect for human life, and by quite literally telling their men in war to just run at german MG 42’s as if they won’t just get filled full of holes, all you can say is hurr durr who cares.
Maybe if Hitler succeeded, Palestinian children and women wouldn’t be bombed by jews (who can do no wrong and are always victims of antisemitism) today, IN YET ANOTHER WAR.
Everyone acts like Holocaust is so horrible but
Baller line, troll. Holocaust denial is super in right now
Don’t remember denying holocaust, but jews still exist so it wasn’t that bad.
I don’t remember
Classic, bud. But just so you know, outside of your little bubble, insinuating that the holocaust wasn’t so bad because other people had it worse is a form of denial.
Doesn’t surprise me that you don’t have the social skill to realize that, given how prideful you are about being an asshole
If you had read more carefully, you’d notice that’s not even the genocide I was referencing. And for the record, I’m not pro-Israel.
I’m really not watering down the impact of war. I feel like I gave a pretty detailed picture of the comparable severity, actually.
There’s no genocide worse than average war. I just picked “the worst one” according to zionists who wish that I cared about genocides at all. They cause those genocides.
Real hot take there buds.
Pretty sure the mass slaughter of civilians is worse than war. And your mention of zionists makes me question why you are phrasing it the way you are.
Rwanda?
Yup. Although I’m pretty sure garden tools have been used for ethnic purposes elsewhere, too.
I don’t think the Nazis had any reason to resort to that at any point, though.
As far as I have read, they didn’t. Or at least they didn’t record it.
Yeah, it’s not impossible, they were pretty flexible about accomplishing their “work” on the Eastern front, but if you’re in Einsatzgruppen and you have plenty of issued bullets, why would you break your back with chopping? And I’m not even sure machetes found much use in the area. Maybe I’m overlooking some regional thing but usually I picture Europeans using axes, saws and hinged shears.
Heads up before anybody else engages this guy: he’s a troll who spends his time either picking fights or deflecting fights he’s losing. Not worth your time
You have forgotten the meaning of remembrance if you think the point is to glorify war. It’s meant to remember the sacrifices made, not hope for more.
Instead of spending billions on a war machine to try to solve a problem … spend billions on peaceful resolutions and negotiations.
And don’t tell me that you can’t, shouldn’t or don’t want to negotiate with Nazis, authoritarians or any other descriptor you use to demonize opponents. You are right, there are nasty, ugly, authoritarian leaders out there … but we still need to create platforms to talk to them to end hostilities.
The old cave man mentality of killing people or figuring out how to kill as many people as possible to make a point or win an argument is completely stupid.
If you invest in war … you will get a war.
If you invest in peace … you will get peace.
Millions died to remind us that war is no answer … yet we forget every year and still try to argue that killing people will solve problems.
spend billions on peaceful resolutions and negotiations.
Isn’t that the exact purpose of the UN?
The same body that, despite being members, is being completely ignored by at least half of the combatants in the various shooting wars that are currently in progress.
The same body that the many countries routinely try to discredit or ignore when it’s convenient.
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I agree that diplomacy should be the way forward, but when aggressors actively ignore and try to subvert the entire process, then unfortunately responding to violence with violence becomes the tool of last resort.
That’s the point I was making … if the world decides to invest in war … chances are high that we will just get war
No one is spending billions on peace and everyone is surprised that there is no peace
You cannot invest in peace without also investing in war. Like someone else said, a country with no military is a country with no negotiating power.
Reductio ad absurdum (Latin for “reduction to absurdity”), is the form of argument that attempts to establish a claim by showing that the opposite scenario would lead to absurdity or contradiction.
I never said remove all military or dismantle all military altogether … I said stop investing in so much war or so much military corporations and hardware so as to make only war inevitable.
Right now, the world is spending billions upon billions in just war … while only spending a few million on peace … and then everyone wonders why there is so much war.
Ok I see your point and I can concur. However I don’t think my point counts as reductio ad absurdum, as it still stands on its own.
If most of the world invests in peace, and one nation in war you will still get war.
It makes me sad, but people have and probably always will suck.
How many would the Nazis have killed if they weren’t stopped militarily?
Would the Nazis have come to power if the world’s wealthiest individuals, corporations and companies had not supported them or financed them? Check out political movements in the 1920s and 1930s and fascism and Nazism was a fairly acceptable movement at the time.
The Nazi Third Reich didn’t appear in a vacuum or come out of thin air, they were born out of the money and financing of wealthy backers who wanted them in power.
The wealthiest didn’t try to stop them until their pet project got out of hand and out of control.
Everyone likes to talk about who the Nazis ended up becoming … but no one ever likes to discuss where they came from and how they came to power.
Would the Nazis have come to power if the world’s wealthiest individuals, corporations and companies had not supported them or financed them?
You have a point, but how would you stop them from doing that?
All boils down to money and who has control of the majority of it.
If everyone votes for a conservative or far right political party that gives more power to monied interests … eventually the greed will consume everything to the point of small groups of people wanting to control everything and everyone using all means necessary, even war.
War is the worst form of diplomacy, but can be the only solution if the other party has wholly unacceptable proposals. Given the ultimate choice Ukraine and others have is capitulation or war, what would you have them do? Keep in mind that the last time Ukraine was under Soviet rule, little things like Holodomor happened, so capitulation may not be the life-saving option you’d think it would be.
Everyone likes to refer to history 70 or 80 years ago … but ignore recent history from 10, 20 years ago when military forces were encroaching on Russian borders
I don’t like Russia or its authoritarian government … but Ukraine was a preventable conflict but the world chose instead to start and then act surprised that it happened.
Really? What steps could the international community have used? Which ones that they did use do you think were ineffectual? How do we force sovergien countries to be peaceful when they are beating the drums of war?
So the answer is when someone beats the war drum … to be a bigger war drum?
I’ll keep repeating it … if the world wants to spend money on war, no one should act surprised when war occurs.
Wars are also preventable and if conditions are constantly created to force war, war will always occur.
Everyone can name one or two major corporations or companies that create and build military hardware because billions are spent on them … few can name a company or institution that builds and encourages peace because no one spends money on them … is it any wonder that war is so easily frequent in our world?
When someone starts hitting you what do you do?
How did you end up in a situation where someone is hitting you?
We don’t just exist in a world where people will go around hitting each other … we aren’t Neanderthals, this isn’t a thousands years ago.
If we choose to create and live in a world where hitting each other is the only way to communicate … then you’re right, you just hit back.
There is money to be made on war and the owners of this world enjoy watching people hit each other.
Oh, so you don’t answer questions.
Magdump in their chest because I panic and fear for my life. After that, while still shaking, I call ambulance because I feel like I can’t breathe and my blood presure is still rising.
It will take years of therapy to calm me down. Perpetrator’s parents will pay the bills.
This one was actually quite funny.
“Incel who can barely contain his rage, just itching to explain his violence-fantasy at the slightest provocation” describes you quite well as a person. Too bad even reality makes terrible troll bait and the person you tried baiting immediately saw through it. Maybe you’re not as good a troll as I thought?
Anyway, glad I caught this one before I left. Better luck tomorrow, troll friend
Done with you.
To echo OP a bit, negotiate based on what? You can’t just “negotiate” aggression away if you have no leverage. A country with no military has no leverage.
Maybe you’re not a caveman, but plenty of people are, and being pacifists will get us killed.
Then you are bending the argument to extremes … I never said take your gun away to start talking.
In extreme situations when there is no longer any option, fighting may be necessary.
But if the world continually creates situations where everyone is led to only the option of death and war and especially when governments and industries and corporations can only understand that investing billions into a war machine is the only option anyone will consider … then we will only ever see death and destruction.
We’re no different with out mentality a thousand years ago … we just have better weapons now.
Well, I pretty much agree with that, then. NATO guidelines are to spend 2% of GDP on the military, and I think that’s reasonable. I’m certainly not suggesting >25% like some of the more militaristic nations in recent history.
Russia will be spending something on the order of 6% of their GDP on war this year. Obviously their GDP isn’t that high, but neither is their military cost per unit. If NATO were to spend 2% and funnel a fraction of that into Ukraine, the war simply could not be sustained by Russia. The combined GDP of NATO is insane.
However, there’s a caveat-- at some point, Ukraine will run out of soldiers to operate the equipment. Then what?
How many years are we willing to let a continuous conflict go by doing the bare minimum? Is it better to do very little and let a war drag on for years? Unlikely. The only people that benefit then are the arms dealers.
What happens if NATO is deadlocked on intervention because Article 5 is never triggered. Everyone sits around waiting while Russia makes slow gains in a war of attrition? NATO uses their increased funding to buy a bunch of fighter jets that’ll never see combat? We just give up Ukraine?
After a cursory review of available sources, Saudi Arabia appears to be the major country with the highest current military funding by GDP (there are some smaller states as outliers). They are at around 8%. Some projections suggest Russia might hit 10% this year.
For the sake of historical comparison, Nazi Germany was at 10% in 1936, and 75% in 1944. The Soviet Union was 5% in 1936, and 60% in 1944. I have a suspicion that Russia is so committed to winning that they’d be willing to follow those extreme examples. What do we do then? (The US reached 38% during the war.)
@ininewcrow I think the problem is when there is no one on the other side with whom it is possible to engage in reasonable discussion. When the leadership of one side have shown time & time again that they are dishonest, untrustworthy, & not even sufficiently well informed & self aware to know when their cause is struggling, let alone lost.
And when both sides see the other this way, & are unwilling to look at themselves, or to see similarities with the current enemy which might be used as a foundation for peace…
Philosophically, I am very attracted by what you are saying here. It is certainly something to hope for and not to give up on. We cannot completely ignore the evidence of history however.
Are you familiar with the name Neville Chamberlain and the phrase “Peace for our time”? Neville would be applauding your post. Many people believe his desire for peace allowed a lot of war, death, and suffering that could have been avoided.
The real world is complicated. What you want and what you must do are not always the same thing.
The appeasement that led up to WW2 is completely different to anything today.
The world was negotiating with an ultra right wing fanatical political movement that was expansionist with a lot of motivation … a small nation with no natural resources, no fuel and no land area. Coupled with an economy that was destroyed by a previous war and now based all their economy on the military and in expansion to new territory. Not to mention that the western nations supported this fanatical right wing movement at the start … the German war machine was partly funded, supported and assisted by British, American and other European corporations, leaders and even monarchies. Henry Ford is a prime example that supported Nazi Germany and even got an award from Hitler himself … they built Germany’s military trucks leading up to the war … not as Ford but as a newly created company called Opal. International industrial companies, chemical companies, civilian, military, medical and manufacturing companies all lined up to build the German war machine … even as they all knew that Germany was not allowed to build up their military again. Aircraft, ships, military equipment all built inside the most monitored nation in Europe after being blamed by the last war … and the allies turned a blind eye.
Modern Russia has none of these parallels … they don’t have a large enough or modern military (it pales in comparison to the Americans), they have abundant resources and they have more than enough land space. If they had wanted to expand, they would have done it long ago and they would have failed. The only thing the Russians have is nuclear weapons but its a useless weapon because once those are used … everyone loses. Wealthy oligarchs in Russia and everywhere else only have one motivation to not use nuclear weapons … money and finances … they all know that once nuclear weapons start destroying the world, it will take most or all of their imaginary wealth locked up on digital global finances. So everyone on all sides have the greatest motivation to not start nuclear war … greed.
Chamberlain’s appeasement was a false agreement with fascism even when they all knew they were making a deal with the devil who was building an army that everyone knew about (because they were building it with everyone).
Look at the dynamics of the war in Ukraine … Ukraine fights Russia using American funding and resources … without America, there is no war … which means America is fighting a proxy war with Russia. The Americans don’t mind this kind of conflict … they can use their hardware and money and no American lives will be lost … no one cares if Ukrainians die so the war will continue until enough Russians or Ukrainians die … or if America runs out of money.
I was just thinking about this, watching the ceremony. They’re covering it like it’s a royal wedding (Look at the crowd! What does this day mean to you, personally?), not a scheduled reminder that it could all happen again if we don’t learn from our mistakes.
As for Ukraine, I don’t they aren’t even asking for foreign troops so I’m more dovish than you I guess. But we should definitely keep sending them whatever they need, and not cut our military budget!!
I get where you are coming from but I disagree in getting involved like that in Ukraine.
Gaza, though, as tough as it might be politically we should get involved to try to stop fighting in any way. Neither side will get they want anytime soon without thousands more Israelis and Palestinians dying. If Canadians truly wish to protect our peacemaking legacy this is where we’d act, rather than Ukraine which even if I support them over Russia, our involvement would be for our own and our allies’ benefit than for peace.
I haven’t worn a poppy for years. Arguments can be made that WWI was an important part of Canadian history as it is essentially the start of our independence, and WWII is always framed as a battle against evil (although allied countries were mostly fighting to prevent invasions of territory, not against the holocaust. Canada turned away Jewish refugees during WWII after all). Remembering these wars for their historical significance is fine.
I really don’t see how any other wars or conflicts that Canadian soldiers have been sent to can be seen as heroic or deserving of honour. Year after year, Rememberance Day and the poppy are less about “Remember the sacrifices of WWI that lead to our independence and to end the atrocities commited by totalitarian governments in WWII” and more US-style hero worship of the military. A military that isn’t used for national defence or to defend the weak and innocent from evil but as a political tool to ensure natural resources from developing nations keep flowing into our ports. I get why it’s necessary, but I don’t think it should be glorified.
There are phases tossed around like “Lest we Forget” or “Never Again”. But when Russia invaded Ukraine, we have effectively done the opposite (or very nearly).
I read these two sentences as being at odds with each other.
When I hear “never again”, I take it to mean that we should remember the cost and horrors of war, and we shouldn’t enter into another war lightly.
We cannot allow genocidal wars to be pressed in the modern world.
Morally I agree. Practically, it’s a harder case to make. We’re currently ignoring genocide in Yemen, and the plight of the Rohingya, and Uyghurs.
When we tried to stop the Rwandan genocide, and failed miserably.
I doubt we’d do much better in Ukraine. Worse, it would give Putin an excuse to use nukes.
I read these two sentences as being at odds with each other.
Respectfully, I don’t.
Remember the days leading up to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, when anyone with half a brain could see what was coming? THAT was the time to say “never again”, and prove that the horrors of war hadn’t been forgotten: by taking a hard stance and not even allowing it to start.
Instead, politicians dragged their feet, bickered, and accepted Putin’s lies even though they knew better. Now, even the rosiest, most optimistic scenario will have to include unnecessary death and destruction. I don’t think we should take his threats of nuclear war seriously, either, unless we want to establish a precedent of letting any nuclear power commit any atrocity they want.
Remember the days leading up to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, when anyone with half a brain could see what was coming? THAT was the time to say “never again”, and prove that the horrors of war hadn’t been forgotten: by taking a hard stance and not even allowing it to start.
I’d say the “we should have done something” window was during Putin’s rise to power and the (first? second?) invasion of Cechnya. But the West fucked off after winning the Cold War and here we are.
Instead, politicians dragged their feet, bickered, and accepted Putin’s lies
Also his bribes. These fuckers aren’t just lazy and ignorant, they’re complicit
If not for nukes, the West ( really any single NATO country frankly ) could end the war with Russia easily. Russia could not only be pushed out of Ukraine but perhaps the easiest way to do it would just be to occupy Moscow, form a new government, and end the war.
The lesson of history though is that the real problems begin after you do that. While the threat of nukes is real, I think the West is hiding behind that so that we do not have to directly engage. Having Ukraine do it for us is not only preferable to putting our own troops at risk but, perhaps more importantly, there is a lot more legitimacy to them fending off an invader. If it is done that way, the ability to achieve political stability and peaceful progress is greatly enhanced.
The West could be a little faster sending more advanced weaponry. If I was Ukrainian, I would feel like the blood of my countrymen was being spilled unnecessarily. That said, for the same reasons as above, the current pace is probably better for everybody in the long run.
Putin and Russia ( as it has been ) are unlikely to survive this conflict. What they get replaced by remains to be seen. In the long run though, that is the more important question and the more important objective. Ukraine needs to be liberated. In a way, Russia does too.
Honestly, things are being managed pretty well.
I had my kids at Remembrance Day this morning. I think we were there for the right reasons. We need to remember the sacrifice made by those that came before. We need to do what we can to build a world that honours that sacrifice. Patience. The easy answer is not always the best.
the West … could end the war with Russia easily. Russia could not only be pushed out of Ukraine but perhaps the easiest way to do it would just be to occupy Moscow
Napoleon, is that you? 😬
We’re currently ignoring genocide in Yemen, and the plight of the Rohingya, and Uyghurs.
Who is “we”? You and I have no power to prevent these things and the politicians we can choose from have no interest in doing more than tweeting about it.
Those genocides aren’t part of OPs post. Our media and politicians mostly ignore them as well.
the politicians we can choose from have no interest in doing more than tweeting about it
Canadian politicians are providing Saudi Arabia with armoured vehicles.
Don’t forget the genocide in Gaza that our government is actively supporting
