I think having a split keyboard so my mouse can be in the middle would really help my comfort at the desk. Is there a style that doubles up the middle keys? My typing style means sometimes I use my right hand to hit T, left to hit Y, etc.
Is this a style already, or would I need to build my own?
I am completely new to this domain and would appreciate advice from knowledgeable enthusiasts.
Not that I am aware of. However, one thing I learned is that moving to a split keyboard fixes bad typing behavior like tapping T or Y with the wrong hand very quickly.
That’s my experience, too. When I switched to split, I noticed a few quirks in my typing habits. They cleared up quickly with just a little bit of thoughtful practice.
Cool. Maybe all I need is to jump in and it won’t end up an issue I notice. I dont understand the hostility at this quirk from some people. Not everyone is an expert, and being snubby of newbies is very unwelcoming.(not you)
I was really bad about it before I went split. I even found myself moving my left hand to the right split sometimes but eventually my muscle memory remapped itself to respect the split.
This is great! You began a new type of thing. It took a while, but you got the new thing. Now you are great at the new thing.
This community seems more often to bite you and mock you if you are new to the thing. I am dissuaded from going through with the thing at all since the vibes are so rude.
Unfortunately the reality of niche online communities is that the assholes tend to be over represented in them.
Good luck with your ergo journey!
FWIW: when I made the leap I went full in and got a split, columnar stagger keyboard with layers, and switched to colemak at the same time. It was a very rough couple of months relearning to type, but I learned along the way that my typing technique had been atrocious in ways I never realized. I do a much better job now of using the correct finger for each key and my hand pain from typing is basically gone.
I think the “bad” typing behavior for those stretches has a bit to do with PC gaming. In the old days of CS and other games before voip, T was all chat and Y was team chat. So my left hand was used to migrating to that specific key very quickly to open a prompt as my mouse hand transitioned over to the keyboard. As a gamer on a split keyboard, it’s usually fine, but sometimes I wish my left half had an extra column of keys.
Indeed, OP should just switch and quickly learn more ergonomic typing.
This is like asking the internet if they have a diet that can accomodate a lot of sugary drinks.
Just, no.
Accessibility. Most people can use things as they are. A limited amount of people need accommodations.
Your analogy is extreme. It is more like asking for a diet that can accomodate my desire to keep eating a cookie once a week.
Your example would be extreme for a diabetic.
You are moving the context away from a request asking if a keyboard with middle keys exist. I am not trying to push this keyboard on you. Why are you being hostile?
Accessibility is about fixing the issues firstly, and then accommodating them. If you can’t fix it, than you accommodate it. In both of your examples neither of them are anywhere near to fixing nor accommodating an accessibility issue. Both are just things that should never be done.
And wanting to type incorrectly isn’t an accessibility thing for that matter anyways.
And was calling out your example for being facetious for its own reasons. You were just as hostile to the person you responded to. If you want to give it, accept it too mate.
I think you cohld benefit from looking at accessibility features around our society. People should be able to walk normally, why make a wheelchair?
I have no hostility in my intent.
Accessibility features are for people with disabilities, not people who just want to do stuff incorrectly.
People should be able to walk correctly yeah, but you’re asking for a wheelchair with 4x4 while being able to walk.
Two completely different things and you brining up accessibility is quite frankly insulting to people with real issues.
I love the extra B on my Alice but when using Corne I keep wanting to press B with my right hand, which I shouldn’t 😂
Aw, why call it bad behavior? It’s faster to type T with the
leftright hand when its ready to go and therightleft hand is all the way down where I just hit C. I save a whole microsecond :DMaybe it’s not official typing rules, but it isn’t bad. Different :)
It is a habit i could unlearn though.
Edit: left vs right omg
Some people use a different hand for T depending on whether they also need to hold shift or control. It’s not wrong to want redundant keys. I like the idea of having some overlap in on the halves. (not that I plan to implement it)
Thank you for validating that some people might use redundant keys. For whatever reason, I’ve learned to double up on the keys and I asked if there was something to help that. Did I ask to impale a baby kitten?
So many insults and snobbish behavior for asking if something exists?
If I asked if an automatic door might be possible, what would this attitude of “we’re normal and right and the proper way to so it is turn the door handle” kind of guys say?
Someone might need it, so why fight so hard against that person exploring a possibility? How are you so aggressive and angry about a thought I am having for me and my life?
((Not you) this is me speaking out like everyone is listening.)
In my opinion as an outsider (and one that uses a normal keyboard and doubles up on keys just like you do) many comments here are genuinely trying to be helpful. You’re asking for a layout that fits your current typing habits and based on their knowledge and experience they’re telling you that you might want to drop that habit instead. That’s advice and you’re not obligated to take it. It seems to me that you’re misinterpreting a lot of those comments as criticism.
I see the helpful advice. It was awesome. Idk how to explain it anymore.
Nothing I typed had anger behind it. I was having a conversation and some of it was asking why you’re acting as my habit is so terrible.
You guys make custom keyboards. I wanted to know. People were helpful. Now people are not leaving me alone because i said the way information given to me wasn’t helpful.
I don’t understand how people are reading my words, but oh well. I know myself.
The time saved is irrelevant when compared to the extra strain you put in your body. It seems small but the less you move out of an ergonomic position the better. Stretching your fingers sideways, moving your wrist, etc all add up when you do them hundreds of times a day.
Another note. My finger is moving an extra centimeter. Could it add up? Sure. Does it work for me? Yes.
(There was more, but I realized I was being petty. Apologies. Deleted.).
I understand that. I am not trying to defend my keystrokes. I just wanted to point out that calling someones habits “bad” worhout any attempt to guide them to “good” is not helpful.
Trying to help someone by saying they are dumb about the subject is unkind and discourages cooperation. Why would I want to listen to someone who demeans me?
Kindness is effective. Please use it.
Apologies, I have obviously offended you and that was not my intention. Everyone has bad habits and I didn’t think pointing one out would be hurtful. My intention was only to help.
I never said you were dumb. Frankly, I am impressed with how aware you are of your finger movements. I didn’t realize I sometimes tapped T with my right hand and Y with my left hand until I switched to a split keyboard.
Only using your left hand to type T and only using your right hand to type Y would be considered good/correct form.
I believe I combined a lot of responses to me when I replied to you. I hope we can step back and see neither of us wants to be upsetting. Communicating online is a challenge.
I would like it if the community saw that I have said multiple times that I could work to change the habit. And that the community could accept that I’m doing it wrong without flooding me with almost exasperated feedback.
I wish it was rather:, “hey, it’s better form to keep left and right separate, and a split keyboard would really help with that practice.”
Because RSIs are life changing and you should change your behavior rather than making it more convenient to harm yourself. Assuming you’re getting a split for the ergonomic benefits, adding an unergonomic feature is extremely illogical.
You can do whatever you want obviously, and a lot of the other commenters are doing a terrible job of explaining any sort of reasoning, but the advice is sound. Several members of my family have had fairly severe RSIs, my mother and my sister-in-law have had to have surgery to regain function in their hands due to carpal tunnel syndrome. I have some constant low-level pain due to similar bad habits when I was young.
I got some training and corrected my workstation and behavior as much as I could to limit the damage, but what’s done is done. If you learn from the mistakes of others, you can avoid those consequences.
Is there a scientific data set showing the damage done to the body by moving your finger an extra centimeter a few times a day?
Why are people so focused on berating this harmless quirk?
Your posture makes a bigger difference, but any repetitive strain will cause damage over time. That stretch may not seem like a big deal, and it’s not if it’s occasional, but it can be if you do it consistently over a long period of time.
But really, what data can I look at to improve my ergonomics? I may not be the perfect human, so I might need weird little this-or-thats to help get me there.
And, if it doesn’t feel stretchy at all? Its just hopping my finger a bit over. I don’t strain.
For the critics: training wheels help lead to biking. Stop shaming my training wheel request :(
Stop whining. They’re trying to help give you training wheels. They’re responding with their experience, and you’re being hypercritical about semantics.
If you go to a medical expert complaining about pain, do you get offended when they tell you how to fix it? And for the natural response “they aren’t doctors”, well (a) they may be and (b) if you really want the level of help you’d expect from a medical professional, perhaps don’t ask the internet.
What the fuck is so offensively wrong that I inquired about a keyboard that works for the way I type?
For me, ergonomically at a desk, i have to try like fuck to keep my upper arms as close to downward as humanly possible, elbows about 90° and forearms NEVER more than 90° outward or I will royally fuck this dipshit muscle UNDERNEATH either one of my scapulas that can only be partially reached with a tens unit. I mitigated this with seat height, table height, monitor position, and a short keyboard so going for my mouse doesn’t have me exceeding 90°. As for key overlap on a split keyboard, I say fuck yes. I don’t touch type “the right way” and depending on a word, a hotkey, or some application shenanigan, I might be all over the place.
I also use an mmo mouse at work and I assign all kinds of goodies to it, which also helps reduce repetitive typing+stretching.
Such a simple design change but honestly it’s a genius move.
I think going custom is your best option. Keyboard enthusiasts often adhere to their “perfect” touch typing methods, and thus there is often no demand for split boards with these duplicate keys, which is a shame.
Ya. I wonder if a ‘loophole’ would be adding a row of blank/programmable keys down that middle row. That would make this easy to do, without the purists (80% of the demographic) feeling that it’s tainted by being not technically correct.
Oh, that’s an amazing idea.
I mean an extra row on both sides, but I assume you figured out what I meant. That’s actually a really good place for macro and modifier keys that I never thought of before since they’re always in easy reach without lifting your hands. Somebody with more free time than me: Get on this!
You probably meant an extra column, not row, but you were plenty understandable anyway so no worries!
I appreciate you not criticizing my wondering. Thank you.
Does it matter that one person in the world wants something that’s not normal? Very unwelcoming. I have to be perfect the moment I present myself or I am wrong. Disappointing. (Not you)
Well most consumer goods always target bigger demographics for higher or safer profit. There simply isnt a market big enough for these niche cases so custom would be the only way unless someone takes a risk and try these out.
Yet there are companies making spaceships for a handful of humans to go to space. People make niche products. The eye-rolling-nopes are not helpful. I think you were just trying to explain how the mind of a business works (only sell to biggest group), but telling me the system sucks doesn’t add anything to fix it.
Idk, I’m on midnight brain right now. I should sleep.
The system sucks and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it so stop complaining. Does that help?
No. It was rude though.
That was the point. Youre crying and complaining that others are being assholes and making fun of you and yet youre here, acting like the biggest prick here. If you act like a dickhead then expect the same from others.
Consider that your point was meant to be rude. Cool. What did you want me to do?
You are the one whining about me haha. I’m just trying to get through this and so many people are bashing me. Man. Idc.
I want it, but I’m just using the ms ergo which has a bit of a gap, but not as much as a full split.
No feedback about the doubled middle keys, but mouse in the center of your desk? Do you have a third, middle arm? I don’t see that being ergonomic at all.
I use my mouse in the middle and it’s much more comfortable. My keyboard halves are quite far apart-- more than most split keyboard users-- and as the other poster suggested, I do a significant amount of my work with keyboard only.
It feels much shorter and my arm feels much more supported when I move my right hand inward to the mouse instead of flaring my elbow outward. In general, elbow tucked is a more ergonomic and stable position, even in e.g. a bench press, and so it’s less fatiguing. Less fatigue means more time without hunching.
That’s my experience, anyway. Different bodies and different setups might end up optimizing differently.
Mouse in the middle is more ergonomic if you spend more time typing than moving your mouse, e.g. heavy CLI users or people who type documents all day.
so what you’re saying is… moving your arm outwards to use the mouse is more ergonomic than moving it inwards? 🤔
Yes? Inward shoulder rotation is a big factor in rounded shoulder/“computer guy” hunch.
So, the inward rotation I use to access my keyboard is the same problem.
yeah that’s why you should split it in half and move them apart
Absolutely. Since your arms aren’t along your body’s symmetrical plane but are offset.
And moving your arm to the center of that requires pushing against your torso/chest.
I’m getting exhausted just thinking about it
I have to move my right arm inward every time I have to type. If it’s exhausting thinking about it, imagin actually having to do it every day for my work :(
I’m a “touchpad in the middle” guy myself. Love it.
I’d argue that it’s not ergonomic but it saves on desk space. Could work well with a split keyboard and a trackball on a small desk.
Can you combine a mouse and keyboard? I loved the little button thing some laptops had. If my mouse is part od the keyboard, then no one can complain my mouse is in the middle lol.
And that would be even less arm movement which is good?
Absolutely, and they look pretty damn cool: https://bastardkb.com/charybdis/
EDIT: keep in mind, most kits like this will be ortholinear, so you’re going to have to learn how to type on that. It’s not that hard, only took me a couple weeks of practice and now I can switch back and forth between ortholinear and standard qwerty easily.
These are funky and cool. I definitely would try something like that. As someone just starting out with this kind of thing, what features can i search for? Many of these keyboards don’t have all of the standard keys. How do i find one that has the buttons I need?
Is there a site that consolidates and compares that i could check out?
There are a lot, I don’t know if there’s a central one. Keeb.io might be a good starting point, just to see what’s out there and familiarize yourself with some price points of different kits.
The common solution for not having enough keys is using layers. For example, I built a split Redox that has room for MOST of the keys that I need, with the exception of the function row up top. So, I set up a layer that activates when I hold my “Fn” key. Fn+1 is the same as hitting the F1 key, Fn+2 is F2, etc.
That’s a very simple example, layers can get VERY complex.
Yep, it’s called a trackpoint: https://lemmy.world/post/7943240
Maybe it turns out not to be better. I wont know untili try.
Observing the way i use my desk. I have to twist to the left to use my keyboard. My right shohlder is on fire. I need something better.
Wait… Left…Right…
…wtf do you use to control your mouse that makes the middle comfortable? lmao
Uses his dick like a joystick
two Eternal Keypads – build one as right, one as left – install VIA firmware and remap
(in between the two halves, people more often choose a trackpad or trackball, usually not enough room for full mouse movement)
EDIT: for split keyboards, you’re basically looking for each half having 7 columns (6 and 5 columns are far more common)
You’ll have to get it custom made. You can learn to do it yourself, design and get it fabricated. Or see if you can pay someone to for it.
I find it funny that most of the responses are variations of you needing to conform to existing designs. We make tools to conform to us, not the other way around.
That’s the whole point of these custom things, right?
You can do that on a zsa moondlander and assign those key to be whatever you want.
Edit: except for the B/N. But someone that has bad typing technique and crossover and switching to columnar, my muscle memory only does thaty with T/Y and G/H. Not a problem for the bottom row.
Was going to comment the same thing - you could even grab some extra keycaps to label em properly
I use a ZSA Moonlander which I programmed to have 2 Ys and 2 Vs so the left and right work like how you’re looking for.
It sped up my adoption of using a columnar keyboard. I’m sure some will say I gotta fix my typing, but I definitely have sped up my typing with a split keyboard, even with this quirk.
Different (key)strokes for different folks!
Thank you for speaking :)
I’ve had some fun about thinking how much overlap you need. And while playing with the thought to maximize it, I came to the conclusion that you can just have two keyboards, for each hand one.
Haha that’s a fun idea. Poor desk space, but i could look like a TV hacker 🤘
I had a similar set of typing habits when I started and found that the bfo9000 suited my needs, may be worth a try for you.
It is ortholinear, rather that the row staggered layout you requested, but does allow the “overreaching” typing style.
https://keeb.io/products/bfo-9000-keyboard-customizable-full-size-split-ortholinear
You can also break of sections of the pcb. So you can have a smaller board than what is pictured. That is the ‘customizizable’ part of description.
I fully recommend the ortho layout over staggered, but going from a one piece 5x12 (olkb preonic) to split with two 5x6s (keebio nyquist) I notice that separating my wrists make my thumbs lower on the keyboard. so I think an iris (keebio) would have been better for me.
I had to replace my preonic in a hurry. The nyquist allowed me to get up and running fast because of how close it feels to the preonic.
Not really something that I’m aware of; you would probably need to build one custom yourself if you wanted that. But I don’t think that would be worth the effort. If you get a split keyboard, it’s pretty easy to train yourself to use it the “correct” way, hitting T with left and Y with right.
EDIT: Or if you go with a pre-built PCB, you could build a keyboard with a non-standard ortholinear layout like this one, but you’d have to re-learn how to type on that anyway…so just going with a standard split layout is the easiest option.
Yeah, it isnt worth the effort or cost at all for somwthing I can un/re-learn. I want to keep it close to standard keyboards since I have to use them often away from my pc. And starting in a new domain by going custom and conplicated is not dipping your toes in.
I’m actually pretty partial to ortholinear after switching to it, for the record. It’s easier to reach every key and it wasn’t that hard to learn. It also didn’t break my brain and force me to “un-learn” a standard QWERTY layout, I can switch between my split ortho keyboard and crappy laptop keyboard on the fly.
I built my own Redox but there are plenty of kits you can get that come partially or totally pre-assembled (that keeb.io website is a good place to start, and there are a bunch of builders on Etsy). I’m trying out putting my trackball between the two split sides right now and it’s not bad; I just have to angle the trackball so that it keeps my wrist straight.
Just buying a split (doesnt even have to be ergo) will fix your problems. I have a charybdis from bastardkb and all my typing flaws were instantly revealed. It honestly took me about a month to get used to it, considering I type on a lot of keyboards and mine is the only split ergo in the office.
As a fellow left-handed split keyboard enthusiast, do what you want. The Ergodash is probably about as close as you’re going to get to what you’re looking for.
Yeah the Ortho layout is a bit different and you won’t get your number overlaps, but it could allow you to do what you are looking for and then change it in the future if you decide you’d rather have other keys there instead of letters.
Also as a person who’s job entails typing all damn day, the change in layout has removed a significant amount of hand fatigue I used to get from regular staggered boards.
If you didn’t want to make one custom, you could get a programmable keyboard like a ZSA Moonlander and then use a layer to have the three extra keys on the inside be the extra keys you want.
I just learned to hold my hands more ergonomically on a non-ergonomic keyboard. I hold my hands at an angle rather than perpendicular to the keys.
