Casemiro going from being over-priced questionable signing to essential part of the team to washed dead money back up has happened at a remarkable pace.
It is just bewildering to me how Man United continuously sign the same flavor of player over and over again, the experienced player who’s “good enough to hold up the Man United name”, they produce 1-2 seasons of good performances and then something happens and they’re out. Happens over and over again - here with Varane and Casemiro, then there’s Eriksen, Ronaldo, Cavani, Lukaku, Matic, Mkhitaryan, Ibra, Sanchez, Di Maria, Schweinsteiger.
Note, this isn’t a list of United transfer flops, of which there are a whole lot more, but a list of the same archetype not working over and over again. You could argue that some on these list recouped some money, or that they brought value for a couple of seasons in a certain way, but that’s not the point - for a team to rise back to the top, you need a concrete plan, and repeatedly signing players without the means to succeed long-term is the opposite of the stability that’s needed for a project. You can’t build a team up if your marquee signings all get crocked/fall out/become surplus/want to leave after 1-2 seasons - there’s just no project then, no concrete plan to get back to the top, and it’s back to square one with next manager.
As if they haven’t signed upcoming young players like Sancho, Anthony, Pellistri, Lukaku, Pogba … to name a few. Those haven’t exactly worked out well either have they?
Casemiro was never overpriced or questionable. He was valued exactly what he was worth and definitely one of the least questionable signings Manchester United has made.
29 year old DM on mega wages from Madrid is definitely questionable. I can’t ever recall a time where Madrid have gotten the short end of the stick when getting rid of one of their big stars, that alone should’ve raised question marks. Madrid are very good at assessing the level of their players
I’ve said it elsewhere on the thread but Robben and Sneijder weren’t performing at Madrid, was definitely best for them to move elsewhere. Makelele was sold as result of a failed vanity project, Ozil was sold because he was no longer going to be a starter with the emergence of Isco and signing of Bale.
A player performing at a world class level for Madrid who is still at the top of their game generally never leaves Madrid
Ten Hag switched to an insane high press two-10s system leaving midfield even more exposed than before, leaving Case completely exposed having to do the work of two men. Then after Case misplaced one pass and we conceded he gets blamed for being shit when in reality it was the change to an unworkable system that practically doomed our early season results.
It’s funny how people don’t even consider that tactics can affect a player’s form. They think Casemiro being late to challenges is because he’s in the space of a few months lost his legs, and not because he’s been running for two players.
Lots of minutes with little to no rest due to no replacement and the team are pressing higher mean he is asked to press more intense than before. All combined to him rarely being fit for all 90 mins and wouldn’t be in the position to defend counter as he and Ten Hag want
Honestly, he’s also always been a motivation based player. I think at Madrid that was sort of papered over because there always is so much pressure, and he’s always been so questioned, and real we’re always in a position to compete. But if you go to his early career, people thought he was lazy at São Paulo, and at Porto he played a lot better in the CL (and I’d say even over his real career he was always better in big games). I imagine that it’s not just physical but also mental in this case.
I think at Madrid that was sort of papered over because there always is so much pressure,
I could not disagree more. There is massive pressure when the stakes are high yes - But there is also a reason why Real has never won a treble or isn’t as consistent in the league, priority number one is the CL.
Not disagreeing with that. It is just that in a club like United with its current situation and the level of competition every other game is a big game - Slip up and goodbye to CL qualification as actually ended up being the case. That and the fact that there were no quality backups like Ceballos always meant that the move was high risk. Case should have picked a move like Inter, would have been perfect
Casemiro signing was always questionable. Letting along the obscene amount of money on a 30 y/o, the guy is pretty much the opposite of every Ten Haag football idea: a slow midfield destroyer pretty poor with his feet for a manager who strives for possession and high pressing never made sense. They basically obliged him to switch to a transitional team
I can’t really believe it’s happened. I was lucky enough to be invited to see the Carabao Cup final last season, which Man United won, and Casemiro was brilliant. You could tell his big-game experience shone through and he was cool, calm and composed throughout, the definite MOTM. How he’s gone from that to not getting on the team sheet so quickly I don’t quite get. I guess it’s because they are trying to play a much more energy intensive style, and his game just doesn’t suit it.
It’s happens sometimes when you spend big on older players. People like to think that top players all stay at peak level deep into their 30s but many do tail off fast.
You guys are a money-no-object club, you can absolutely afford to take the gambles and pocket the wins. United are having to budget carefully for FFP and they’ve blown a fortune on transfer fee/wages here!
What part of that doesn’t mean giving a huge contract to an aging player is a risk? You seem to be arguing that it’s not a risk because he was signed on a free transfer.
Rashford and AWB examples are fluctuations in form, an inherent lack of consistency, and/or fit with the manager’s tactics and what the squad needs. This is different than an age-related decline in quality when a player hits a point where their experience and knowledge of the game is no longer able to make up for the loss of athleticism.
Outside of significant injuries, it’s rare that a good player hits their peak in their early-mid 20s and can never get back to that. A lot will reach their potential and stop developing but they don’t go backwards. That’s why it’s so surprising and attracts attention when it does happen, e.g. Dele.
Players in their mid 20s peak and fall off all the time we have thousands of examples, some players are just not that good and peak fall off season after season
Sure, you can find some, but thousands of examples? I think it’s far more often the case that the players that look to have gotten worse really aren’t, they are just being expected to play at a level beyond their abilities so they look bad. For example a player having a great season in the Championship, getting sold to a PL team and doing poorly most likely isn’t receding from their peak, they were never a PL level player to begin with.
See another stupid comment with goldfish memory and just zero evidence
Rashford never gives a fuck, he sulked and didn’t jump for headers last season any time i watched but he scored goals so your goldfish memory forgets that
Also how Casemiro got REALLY fat in the offseason.
One would think he would try to stay in shape now he is over 30. Nope. Party all the way and pick up a lot of weight that needed to be shed really fast.
It happens when you buy a player who is good at quick progressive passes, good at defense, and great with quick possessions and you have him hold the ball, be the sole pivot, and not pair him with anyone that fits him. Using him as a sole pivot is especially a problem, that doesn’t make any sense in the modern game where every good team has two pivots, much less with a player that isn’t used to it
Everytime you mention someone over 30 might decline suddenly you are bombarded with people claiming that there’s “no way a professional like him” could decline and that sports science has gotten so advanced that it essentially trumps biology meaning there’s no reason players would decline one bit before they’re 36 at the earliest.
On one hand casemiro has gotten away with murder on the field without getting a card so many times in the other hand that may be a skill. Not really sure how to read these stats - feels like context makes it too nuanced.
Yup! I remember getting attacked here for questioning the value of Casemiro at his age/price/contract cos who wants to believe that a player they like might decline soon. Was the same with Peresic who everyone assured me would be a wonderful wingback adapting to PL aged 33!!!
It’s a real minority who play deep into their 30s, handing out big contracts to such players should be done with real care and scrutiny unless you are a monopoly money club then whatever gamble away!
This subreddit and other social media were hilarious when they signed them. Like it’s logical to question the merits of spending that much on players of that age. Sure there’s some who have held off their declines, but the majority of players dip at a certain age. For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
But they didn’t want long term options. They’ve got the cash to sign a Casemiro every year or two.
They’d rather overpay for proven players than risk spending a chunk on a player who’s not quite as good, but has room to improve.
Players of his calibre are so rarely available, and especially not willing to go to a borderline CL qualifier with little realistic chance of a title win.
The problem Man U have is that they’ve got the resources for those top drawer players, but they’re not an attractive option.
I mean, imagine them trying to sign Jude Bellingham. Is there actually an amount of money they could have given him to sign there? 3, 4, 5 times the wages Madrid offered? I think he’d still go to Real.
And if he did go to Man U, it would literally only be for money, so not that motivated to put in a good performance. As we’ve seen over and over.
Many people often also ignore the human element of this. They think footballers are robots like in their games of FIFA on PS5. There are so many examples of footballers losing their drive to stay at peak performance or who want to move onto other interests.
This wave of guys like Ronaldo, Messi, Ibra, Thiago Silva, Modric, have made people forged that 90% of players over 32 are going to drop their performance lvl. People forget these are professionals with their hands on top level technology, nutricion, recovering etc. Also 2 of them were born with probably 1 in a million natural genaracional talent. That and like you said games like Fifa and FM have made people look at older player in a diferent way ( which is not all 100% correct). Hell, 15 years ago, a 29 year old player would be called ancient.
Not to mention, when a player is young and poor they are hungry. I just am not certain how a 32 year old, who is worth millions can have that same want to get out of bed every day with achy joints and go train, instead of living in leisure and just putting in the time. It is still a job and many forget that.
Which is a stupid argument. Plenty of players that look after their body just decline physically though no fault of their own in their 30s. Look at Diego Forlán. He was always in peak shape, single digit bodyfat and wanted to run for everything, known for longevity. Yet just before the 2011 Copa América when he was 32, he just fell off of a cliff at club level, didn’t score in 12 games and just did not have the legs to play in Europe anymore as a mobile striker. Sometimes it just happens, players decline regardless of how well they look after their body. No one can beat farther time. Jordan Henderson is another example, be was declining for years before leaving Liverpool, despite always being in tip top shape.
Casemiro going from being over-priced questionable signing to essential part of the team to washed dead money back up has happened at a remarkable pace.
It is just bewildering to me how Man United continuously sign the same flavor of player over and over again, the experienced player who’s “good enough to hold up the Man United name”, they produce 1-2 seasons of good performances and then something happens and they’re out. Happens over and over again - here with Varane and Casemiro, then there’s Eriksen, Ronaldo, Cavani, Lukaku, Matic, Mkhitaryan, Ibra, Sanchez, Di Maria, Schweinsteiger.
Note, this isn’t a list of United transfer flops, of which there are a whole lot more, but a list of the same archetype not working over and over again. You could argue that some on these list recouped some money, or that they brought value for a couple of seasons in a certain way, but that’s not the point - for a team to rise back to the top, you need a concrete plan, and repeatedly signing players without the means to succeed long-term is the opposite of the stability that’s needed for a project. You can’t build a team up if your marquee signings all get crocked/fall out/become surplus/want to leave after 1-2 seasons - there’s just no project then, no concrete plan to get back to the top, and it’s back to square one with next manager.
As if they haven’t signed upcoming young players like Sancho, Anthony, Pellistri, Lukaku, Pogba … to name a few. Those haven’t exactly worked out well either have they?
Maybe because it has to do something with the club itself then???
You don’t go from decade of world class to shit in a season or two.
Eriksen, Cavani and Ibra were free transfers at least. Di Maria was 26 when he signed for United.
Casemiro was never overpriced or questionable. He was valued exactly what he was worth and definitely one of the least questionable signings Manchester United has made.
Of course this was at the time of his signing.
29 year old DM on mega wages from Madrid is definitely questionable. I can’t ever recall a time where Madrid have gotten the short end of the stick when getting rid of one of their big stars, that alone should’ve raised question marks. Madrid are very good at assessing the level of their players
Id say odegaard but that is with hindsight. He couldnt break into the first 11 at the time
He wasn’t a big star though
Robben, Makelele, Sneijder and Ozil (to a slightly lesser degree) all performed at a world class level after leaving Madrid.
I’ve said it elsewhere on the thread but Robben and Sneijder weren’t performing at Madrid, was definitely best for them to move elsewhere. Makelele was sold as result of a failed vanity project, Ozil was sold because he was no longer going to be a starter with the emergence of Isco and signing of Bale.
A player performing at a world class level for Madrid who is still at the top of their game generally never leaves Madrid
It’s less than 18 months since they signed him for £60m and now he’s getting binned off and yet he’s not a questionable signing? Sure thing mate.
Don’t think we’d have got top 4 without him. I’d imagine Champions League football is worth about that, even if we’ve crashed and burned in it.
You’re speaking in retrospect while completely ignoring the fact that the dude just tried to clarify that he meant without retrospective knowledge.
He was one of our most important players, he was brilliant for all of last season.
I don’t know what happened this season.
Ten Hag switched to an insane high press two-10s system leaving midfield even more exposed than before, leaving Case completely exposed having to do the work of two men. Then after Case misplaced one pass and we conceded he gets blamed for being shit when in reality it was the change to an unworkable system that practically doomed our early season results.
Thank you. Finally someone has some ball knowledge in this pathetic sub.
It’s funny how people don’t even consider that tactics can affect a player’s form. They think Casemiro being late to challenges is because he’s in the space of a few months lost his legs, and not because he’s been running for two players.
r/reddevils is just as bad.
Lots of minutes with little to no rest due to no replacement and the team are pressing higher mean he is asked to press more intense than before. All combined to him rarely being fit for all 90 mins and wouldn’t be in the position to defend counter as he and Ten Hag want
Honestly, he’s also always been a motivation based player. I think at Madrid that was sort of papered over because there always is so much pressure, and he’s always been so questioned, and real we’re always in a position to compete. But if you go to his early career, people thought he was lazy at São Paulo, and at Porto he played a lot better in the CL (and I’d say even over his real career he was always better in big games). I imagine that it’s not just physical but also mental in this case.
I could not disagree more. There is massive pressure when the stakes are high yes - But there is also a reason why Real has never won a treble or isn’t as consistent in the league, priority number one is the CL.
I mean, he always performed in the CL though. League and copa were always a bit more disappointing, because they are lower stakes.
Not disagreeing with that. It is just that in a club like United with its current situation and the level of competition every other game is a big game - Slip up and goodbye to CL qualification as actually ended up being the case. That and the fact that there were no quality backups like Ceballos always meant that the move was high risk. Case should have picked a move like Inter, would have been perfect
Casemiro signing was always questionable. Letting along the obscene amount of money on a 30 y/o, the guy is pretty much the opposite of every Ten Haag football idea: a slow midfield destroyer pretty poor with his feet for a manager who strives for possession and high pressing never made sense. They basically obliged him to switch to a transitional team
Casemiro is far from “poor with his feet”.
I can’t really believe it’s happened. I was lucky enough to be invited to see the Carabao Cup final last season, which Man United won, and Casemiro was brilliant. You could tell his big-game experience shone through and he was cool, calm and composed throughout, the definite MOTM. How he’s gone from that to not getting on the team sheet so quickly I don’t quite get. I guess it’s because they are trying to play a much more energy intensive style, and his game just doesn’t suit it.
Casemiro was an overpriced questionable signing precisely because of the worries of an impending drop off though?
It wasn’t like people thought he was bad, it was that people thought he was likely to regress soon
It’s happens sometimes when you spend big on older players. People like to think that top players all stay at peak level deep into their 30s but many do tail off fast.
🎶Ohhh Thiago Silvaaaaaaa🎶
We know we got lucky.
You guys are a money-no-object club, you can absolutely afford to take the gambles and pocket the wins. United are having to budget carefully for FFP and they’ve blown a fortune on transfer fee/wages here!
I assume there is a /s here lol.
We signed Silva on a free…and we also stay within FFP by selling/loaning players.
Wages still count for FFP. He’s not playing for free.
Our wage bill is smaller than City’s, Arsenal’s, and United’s…
What part of that doesn’t mean giving a huge contract to an aging player is a risk? You seem to be arguing that it’s not a risk because he was signed on a free transfer.
No it doesn’t
It happens with young players too
Rashfor goes from shit to world class regularly, AWB went from shit to essential to shit
Many other United players and other team players as well, why? Because fans have the memory of a gold fish and when team does bad they do this
Rashford and AWB examples are fluctuations in form, an inherent lack of consistency, and/or fit with the manager’s tactics and what the squad needs. This is different than an age-related decline in quality when a player hits a point where their experience and knowledge of the game is no longer able to make up for the loss of athleticism.
Outside of significant injuries, it’s rare that a good player hits their peak in their early-mid 20s and can never get back to that. A lot will reach their potential and stop developing but they don’t go backwards. That’s why it’s so surprising and attracts attention when it does happen, e.g. Dele.
Players in their mid 20s peak and fall off all the time we have thousands of examples, some players are just not that good and peak fall off season after season
Not every player in their mid 20s is consistent
Sure, you can find some, but thousands of examples? I think it’s far more often the case that the players that look to have gotten worse really aren’t, they are just being expected to play at a level beyond their abilities so they look bad. For example a player having a great season in the Championship, getting sold to a PL team and doing poorly most likely isn’t receding from their peak, they were never a PL level player to begin with.
Yes thousands of examples
Players have one off seasons all the time in every league idk how people watch football but say this
Just in PL u have so many one season wonders let alone other leagues that you have never seen
Idk if i know this but it’s very hard to be consistent and great at a very high level
A one off season is not their actual level, it’s just being in great form…
Speaking of Rashford, he only gives a shit when he wants a new contract lol
See another stupid comment with goldfish memory and just zero evidence
Rashford never gives a fuck, he sulked and didn’t jump for headers last season any time i watched but he scored goals so your goldfish memory forgets that
Also how Casemiro got REALLY fat in the offseason.
One would think he would try to stay in shape now he is over 30. Nope. Party all the way and pick up a lot of weight that needed to be shed really fast.
It happens when you buy a player who is good at quick progressive passes, good at defense, and great with quick possessions and you have him hold the ball, be the sole pivot, and not pair him with anyone that fits him. Using him as a sole pivot is especially a problem, that doesn’t make any sense in the modern game where every good team has two pivots, much less with a player that isn’t used to it
Lewandowski could be headed for the thing if his form doesn’t pick up soon.
Everytime you mention someone over 30 might decline suddenly you are bombarded with people claiming that there’s “no way a professional like him” could decline and that sports science has gotten so advanced that it essentially trumps biology meaning there’s no reason players would decline one bit before they’re 36 at the earliest.
Players decline nobody ever denies that
Casemrio was great 4 months ago so was Varane
The difference is team doing bad so you say this, it’s not about age it’s more about team performance
I just gave an example of Xhaka, do u think prime Xhaka was worse than 30 year old Xhaka? Or was it fans scapegoating due to club performances
Prime Xhaka is now innit? He was mediocre for years and was a liability for a red card.
How many red cards has Xaka compared to Casemiro?
According to TransferMarkt
Xhaka - 14 (7 Straight Reds) Casemiro - 5 (2 Straight Reds)
Across their whole careers.
On one hand casemiro has gotten away with murder on the field without getting a card so many times in the other hand that may be a skill. Not really sure how to read these stats - feels like context makes it too nuanced.
Xhaka has not declined yet. Nothing in my comment suggests that I think every player 30 or over has started to decline.
Yup! I remember getting attacked here for questioning the value of Casemiro at his age/price/contract cos who wants to believe that a player they like might decline soon. Was the same with Peresic who everyone assured me would be a wonderful wingback adapting to PL aged 33!!!
It’s a real minority who play deep into their 30s, handing out big contracts to such players should be done with real care and scrutiny unless you are a monopoly money club then whatever gamble away!
Perisic is our current best left winger. Last year was shit for everybody I don’t think there was any evidence he declined noticeably.
Oh look another example
Last year Perisic legs gone this year he is good
He tore his acl this year
This subreddit and other social media were hilarious when they signed them. Like it’s logical to question the merits of spending that much on players of that age. Sure there’s some who have held off their declines, but the majority of players dip at a certain age. For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
But they didn’t want long term options. They’ve got the cash to sign a Casemiro every year or two.
They’d rather overpay for proven players than risk spending a chunk on a player who’s not quite as good, but has room to improve.
Players of his calibre are so rarely available, and especially not willing to go to a borderline CL qualifier with little realistic chance of a title win.
The problem Man U have is that they’ve got the resources for those top drawer players, but they’re not an attractive option.
I mean, imagine them trying to sign Jude Bellingham. Is there actually an amount of money they could have given him to sign there? 3, 4, 5 times the wages Madrid offered? I think he’d still go to Real.
And if he did go to Man U, it would literally only be for money, so not that motivated to put in a good performance. As we’ve seen over and over.
Many people often also ignore the human element of this. They think footballers are robots like in their games of FIFA on PS5. There are so many examples of footballers losing their drive to stay at peak performance or who want to move onto other interests.
This wave of guys like Ronaldo, Messi, Ibra, Thiago Silva, Modric, have made people forged that 90% of players over 32 are going to drop their performance lvl. People forget these are professionals with their hands on top level technology, nutricion, recovering etc. Also 2 of them were born with probably 1 in a million natural genaracional talent. That and like you said games like Fifa and FM have made people look at older player in a diferent way ( which is not all 100% correct). Hell, 15 years ago, a 29 year old player would be called ancient.
No one called 29yr old players ancient 15 years ago.
bud you’re on /r/soccer so you’re talking to a 10 year old, 15 years ago the universe didn’t even exist
Not to mention, when a player is young and poor they are hungry. I just am not certain how a 32 year old, who is worth millions can have that same want to get out of bed every day with achy joints and go train, instead of living in leisure and just putting in the time. It is still a job and many forget that.
Which is a stupid argument. Plenty of players that look after their body just decline physically though no fault of their own in their 30s. Look at Diego Forlán. He was always in peak shape, single digit bodyfat and wanted to run for everything, known for longevity. Yet just before the 2011 Copa América when he was 32, he just fell off of a cliff at club level, didn’t score in 12 games and just did not have the legs to play in Europe anymore as a mobile striker. Sometimes it just happens, players decline regardless of how well they look after their body. No one can beat farther time. Jordan Henderson is another example, be was declining for years before leaving Liverpool, despite always being in tip top shape.