Look, if Hamas wants to fight Israel, fine. The Palestinians have legitimate grievances. But Hamas actively and purposefully kidnapped a bunch of women and raped them to death. That’s never, ever understandable or excusable, not even in war. “Lashing on your aggressor”, indeed!
Look if Isreal wanted to fight hamas. Okey, but Israel has been purposefully targeting civilians over and over for half a decade and the world is acting like it’s okey and Israel got a free pass at doing genocide because ww2. War crimes can go both ways indeed . Fuck Israel.
Exactly. Thank you. You’ll notice that I didn’t defend Israel in my comment either. I don’t think either side is morally blameless. There is no reason to choose one side or the other on the basis of morality. You can easily create a chain of reasoning similar to “Side A did X, because Side B did Y” all the way back to the beginning. There is no reason for a person to choose one side over the other besides personal preference or affiliation. In the case of governments, they choose a position based on geopolitical strategy.
That is precisely why it’s a neverending problem. So, what to do? Let them fight it out until one side gives up? Send in an international peacekeeping force? Have the security council impose a two-state solution? Currently, it appears that most of the world is okay with Option 1, for the time being at least.
one side are freedom fighters fighting against the genocide that is perpetrated against them and the others are colonizer doing ethnic cleansing, apartheid . The story of more than half the wolrd during the European colonization era. I don’t know about you but It’s an easy moral choice for me. Acting like both sides are equally horrible while Palestinians are fighting against being genocided only serves the one doing the genocide and it’s a strategy Israel heavily use. Fuck Israel.
Yeah ,being from a colonized country and learning about all the horrible things they did to your people make it less of an opinion and more like a conviction that colonization, genocide and apartheid are bad things. It’s also supposedly tied to logic and having a sense of humanity but apparently being against colonization , genocide and apartheid are debatable if it’s Isreal doing it or you are an isreali of course.
It is understandable that you feel a sense of affiliation with the Palestinian cause, given your background. But the strength of your feeling doesn’t change the facts. Israel has acted like an apartheid state towards the Palestinians and Hamas are terrorists who use rape as a weapon of war. Why argue about which side is worse? They’re just different shades of awful.
The real question is, what’s next? Israel isn’t leaving. Palestinians aren’t leaving. They apparently can’t live together. Ergo, the solution is obvious: they need a two-state solution. They have been close to deals before. Let’s get there.
I will never call a country freedom fighters terrorists. Freedom isn’t free, especially when the other side completely discard all international law protecting civilians, schools, hospitals and even journalists. my country freedom fighters were were called all sorts of similar names and today we are free thanks to them.
they need a two-state solution. They have been close to deals before. Let’s get there.
Tell that to Israel. Palestinians have agreed long ago to a country according to the palistinian 1967 borders map. Circling back to the two states solution is meaningless and it’s because Isreal is the one not wanting it since all the world countries by their utter silence are giving them a free pass at commiting genocide.
Fair enough. However, if you think that Hamas’s terrorism is justified, then you also justify Israel’s position of giving no quarter to them. That kind of hard line leads to a lot of suffering.
But, let’s explore the idea that Hamas should follow the example of other formerly-colonized countries. I’m not sure what country you are from, but it sounds like perhaps it was a former European colony. In that case, booting out a colonizing country like France or Britain or the Netherlands is one thing. The colonizers can just go back home. Colonies, for Europe, were largely a matter of economics and prestige, not survival. In contrast, Israel has nowhere to go. They believe they are fighting for survival just as much as the Palestinians do. Whatever you may think of that, morally, it is the fact on the ground. Think on that. Israel has nowhere to go. There is no path forward in Palestine/Israel that is similar to India, or Indonesia, or Vietnam. There is no possibility of sending the Jews packing. Hamas can’t throw them out and live happily ever after in post-colonial bliss. Even if public opinion turns against Israel, the outcome is still a two-state solution, not the obliteration of Israel.
Also, fuck you to all the people like you that completely forget the countless horrible acts from from beating to torture, stealing land and destroying homes to mercilessly killing and bombing civilians, or considering more than half Palestinians are under 18, literally “children” that the isreali fucks has been commiting for half a decade. But when hamas commit crimes towards the isreali settler fucks comming from their comfy western country fully expecting to steal a Palestinian family land and segregating them worse than South Africa apartheid you’re like oh, the humanity, where’s the humanity ! Israel shown none and therfore deserves none. Fuck Isreal !
So… The IDF walked back on the rape thing so setting that aside: Nobody sane is defending the deliberate murder of civilians that took place during the attack. That said, given the attack had legitimate military targets, calling the whole thing terrorism is playing right into Israel’s hands. We need to distinguish these things from each other; we have no evidence the attack had a goal of murdering civilians, and why would it? Even going by realpolitik they’re much more useful as hostages.
“Hamas soldiers shouldn’t have killed civilians” = legitimate criticism that needs to be addressed.
“Hamas shouldn’t have attacked the oh so peaceful Israel” = unabashed Israeli propaganda.
It is true that the fog of war makes it hard to know what is true, but as far as I know the rape allegations have not been walked back. If you haven’t read this BBC story, you should.
So there are two rape allegations, rape during the attack itself and rape after the attack after the hostages were taken to Gaza. The IDF walked back on the latter; the former is a fact.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. It’s pretty hard to read that BBC story. Hamas raped them, cut off body parts, and shot them in the head WHILE raping them.
Bombs are bad enough, but there is something especially vile and degrading about sexualized violence.
Look, if Hamas wants to fight Israel, fine. The Palestinians have legitimate grievances. But Hamas actively and purposefully kidnapped a bunch of women and raped them to death. That’s never, ever understandable or excusable, not even in war. “Lashing on your aggressor”, indeed!
Look if Isreal wanted to fight hamas. Okey, but Israel has been purposefully targeting civilians over and over for half a decade and the world is acting like it’s okey and Israel got a free pass at doing genocide because ww2. War crimes can go both ways indeed . Fuck Israel.
Exactly. Thank you. You’ll notice that I didn’t defend Israel in my comment either. I don’t think either side is morally blameless. There is no reason to choose one side or the other on the basis of morality. You can easily create a chain of reasoning similar to “Side A did X, because Side B did Y” all the way back to the beginning. There is no reason for a person to choose one side over the other besides personal preference or affiliation. In the case of governments, they choose a position based on geopolitical strategy.
That is precisely why it’s a neverending problem. So, what to do? Let them fight it out until one side gives up? Send in an international peacekeeping force? Have the security council impose a two-state solution? Currently, it appears that most of the world is okay with Option 1, for the time being at least.
one side are freedom fighters fighting against the genocide that is perpetrated against them and the others are colonizer doing ethnic cleansing, apartheid . The story of more than half the wolrd during the European colonization era. I don’t know about you but It’s an easy moral choice for me. Acting like both sides are equally horrible while Palestinians are fighting against being genocided only serves the one doing the genocide and it’s a strategy Israel heavily use. Fuck Israel.
Ok, friend. You have every right to your opinion. I just happen to disagree. Have a good day.
P.S. Freedom fighters don’t rape women to death.
And exclusively targeting civilians is against international laws but here we are. Also go read a history book.
Yeah ,being from a colonized country and learning about all the horrible things they did to your people make it less of an opinion and more like a conviction that colonization, genocide and apartheid are bad things. It’s also supposedly tied to logic and having a sense of humanity but apparently being against colonization , genocide and apartheid are debatable if it’s Isreal doing it or you are an isreali of course.
It is understandable that you feel a sense of affiliation with the Palestinian cause, given your background. But the strength of your feeling doesn’t change the facts. Israel has acted like an apartheid state towards the Palestinians and Hamas are terrorists who use rape as a weapon of war. Why argue about which side is worse? They’re just different shades of awful.
The real question is, what’s next? Israel isn’t leaving. Palestinians aren’t leaving. They apparently can’t live together. Ergo, the solution is obvious: they need a two-state solution. They have been close to deals before. Let’s get there.
I will never call a country freedom fighters terrorists. Freedom isn’t free, especially when the other side completely discard all international law protecting civilians, schools, hospitals and even journalists. my country freedom fighters were were called all sorts of similar names and today we are free thanks to them.
Tell that to Israel. Palestinians have agreed long ago to a country according to the palistinian 1967 borders map. Circling back to the two states solution is meaningless and it’s because Isreal is the one not wanting it since all the world countries by their utter silence are giving them a free pass at commiting genocide.
Fair enough. However, if you think that Hamas’s terrorism is justified, then you also justify Israel’s position of giving no quarter to them. That kind of hard line leads to a lot of suffering.
But, let’s explore the idea that Hamas should follow the example of other formerly-colonized countries. I’m not sure what country you are from, but it sounds like perhaps it was a former European colony. In that case, booting out a colonizing country like France or Britain or the Netherlands is one thing. The colonizers can just go back home. Colonies, for Europe, were largely a matter of economics and prestige, not survival. In contrast, Israel has nowhere to go. They believe they are fighting for survival just as much as the Palestinians do. Whatever you may think of that, morally, it is the fact on the ground. Think on that. Israel has nowhere to go. There is no path forward in Palestine/Israel that is similar to India, or Indonesia, or Vietnam. There is no possibility of sending the Jews packing. Hamas can’t throw them out and live happily ever after in post-colonial bliss. Even if public opinion turns against Israel, the outcome is still a two-state solution, not the obliteration of Israel.
Also, fuck you to all the people like you that completely forget the countless horrible acts from from beating to torture, stealing land and destroying homes to mercilessly killing and bombing civilians, or considering more than half Palestinians are under 18, literally “children” that the isreali fucks has been commiting for half a decade. But when hamas commit crimes towards the isreali settler fucks comming from their comfy western country fully expecting to steal a Palestinian family land and segregating them worse than South Africa apartheid you’re like oh, the humanity, where’s the humanity ! Israel shown none and therfore deserves none. Fuck Isreal !
So… The IDF walked back on the rape thing so setting that aside: Nobody sane is defending the deliberate murder of civilians that took place during the attack. That said, given the attack had legitimate military targets, calling the whole thing terrorism is playing right into Israel’s hands. We need to distinguish these things from each other; we have no evidence the attack had a goal of murdering civilians, and why would it? Even going by realpolitik they’re much more useful as hostages.
“Hamas soldiers shouldn’t have killed civilians” = legitimate criticism that needs to be addressed.
“Hamas shouldn’t have attacked the oh so peaceful Israel” = unabashed Israeli propaganda.
It is true that the fog of war makes it hard to know what is true, but as far as I know the rape allegations have not been walked back. If you haven’t read this BBC story, you should.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
However, if there is newer, credible evidence that it isn’t true, I’ll be glad to hear it.
So there are two rape allegations, rape during the attack itself and rape after the attack after the hostages were taken to Gaza. The IDF walked back on the latter; the former is a fact.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. It’s pretty hard to read that BBC story. Hamas raped them, cut off body parts, and shot them in the head WHILE raping them.
Bombs are bad enough, but there is something especially vile and degrading about sexualized violence.