after St. Louis police unions instructed officers to publicly display The Punisher’s insignia (the mark of a lawless, fascist murderer) the comic book community was quick to point out the stupidity, and the frankly horrifying message sent by supposed peace officers endorsing a maniac. So it’s a good thing The Punisher personally confirms he hates cops who see him as a friend… making every cop who “wears his mark” or calls themselves a “fan” look like shameful fool in the process.
– Andrew Dyce, The Punisher Confirms: He HATES Cops Who Support Him
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It’s like all those non-Catholic Christians who display Crusader symbols. They are forgetting that the Crusaders would have murdered believers like them in a heartbeat. Plus the Crusaders probably killed more Christians than Muslims and Jews, since the Muslim conquerors would force the local Christian population to fight on their side.
He’s definitely a lawless murderer, and the types of cops that display his insignia certainly seem to lean fascist, but what makes the Punisher fascist?
I think in this case “fascist” means “anything I don’t like.” You know, like “socialism”.
The way they cropped it, they leave out the best part. Here’s the full interaction. 4 pages from Punisher #13:
Yeah, the whole bit about how they should be looking up to Captain America as a role model is the most important part.
Co-opting stuff isn’t about understanding.
They like him because they want to LARP as a reckless, vengeance seeking gunslinger who eliminates anyone who they feel has wronged them or who is “wrong”. As in so many other circumstances, they’ve missed the point and the intended message.
The ol’ Walter White/Rick Sanchez/Joker/Patrick Batemen “hes literally me fr fr” but for adult men doing an actual job. It’d be cringey if they weren’t in a position of authority.
Still pretty cringey tbh. The fact that there’s so many people (mostly white men) who run around fantasizing about gunning down people they disagree with is sad, and terrifying. It’s a whole subculture of violence obsessed gun nuts with a victim complex and low self esteem.
If fascists could read they’d be very upset
The punisher is a murdering lawless maniac but I don’t think he’s a fascist, is he?
I don’t really see how he could be construed as one, other than the kneejerk “fascism is when bad things”.
The whole point is that he’s not like cops.
Punisher 2099 was fascist (Wouldn’t kill cops, and became part of Doom 2099’s regime when he took over America.) but Frank Castle Punisher (A.k.a. the one we know.)? Pretty much equal opportunity murderer of criminals and baddies.
I don’t think that makes him fascist, just a broken person with twisted morals attempting to do good (in his mind). IIRC, he makes no attempt to push his morals beyond himself.
In fact, doesn’t he specifically tell people not to be like him?? That’s very much NOT fascie behavior.
How fascist he is depends on who is writing him. His symbol is literally a stylized Nazi totenkopf, and while he has never voiced support for totalitarian leaders, his solution to crime - escalating the violence - is consistent with fascist ideology.
I don’t see the relation? Not all skull motifs are a totenkopf.
Seems like they specifically changed it in Pre production
People used skulls as a symbol of death long before the Nazis.
A fascist is someone who supports a single strong leader with total control of the nation. ‘Dictator’ was an actual position in the Roman Republic; the people could vote to give one man absolute power for a period of time. Makes sense if you’re dealing with a natural disaster or invasion and don’t have time to go through the usual channels. Fascism became popular in the chaos of the post WW1 era. Things were changing rapidly, and conservatives wanted to rein in the ‘undesirables.’ Ironically, the Communist Russian Revolution was a huge spur to the creation of numerous fascist parties across Europe.
Frank Castle, the Punisher, is not a fascist. He isn’t interested in taking power for himself, and doesn’t want a dictator. He often speaks of having the greatest respect for Captain America, the guy who always chooses the side of liberty and fair play. Frank knows that he’s a criminal and a murderer. He just doesn’t care. IMHO if he and the Joker were both locked up and unable to kill each other, the two would get along fine.
Man, I’d actually love to see a conversation between the Punisher and the Joker
I want Mark Hamill Joker and Brad Garrett as Frank. BTW I’ve see Brad in person, and he’s a giant. Would have been perfect for Jack Reacher, instead of the pretty boy they used.
I assume that mean “murderer of fascists?”
Has he ever been portrayed in comics killing fascists?
I do remember this one future one-off comic where he killed a bunch of rich pricks and politicians who even had a small repopulation program going, because they were the ones responsible for armageddon.
Rather than let them live and continue humanity, he killed them all for the crime of destroying it. Then he walked into the fire, ending his own life.
I’m not a big comic guy but I thought then and now that that was the perfect punisher story.
He did the only thing he knew how to do, to kill. a thing that definitely helped no one except for himself, then with no one else to punish he burned literally in the fire he was consumed with all his life.
That’s poetry.
I haven’t actually read any Punisher, but it sounded more plausible than The Punisher being fascist
I haven’t read a lot, but it would be interesting to see how corporate comics would write an ‘antifa’ Punisher. They would absolutely slander the movement, like with the Joker (Johann Most + L’Homme qui rit), the Flag Smasher, or Anarky. But it would still be a curious read.
Cops are some of the biggest fan boys out there. The movie ‘The French Connection*’ inspired them to wear Popeye’s hat and ankle holster. Magnum PI inspired them to grow mustaches. The TV show Hill Street Blues got them wearing turtlenecks.
*If you haven’t seen it, watch ‘The French Connection.’ Great New York locations, Oscar winning actors, and one of the best car chases ever filmed.
I saw a Don’t Tread on Me sticker right next to a Thin Blue Line sticker the other day (on the back of a giant fuck-off Ford truck, of course) and was like “that dude needs to make up his fuckin’ mind.”
I mean, to me the meaning of that juxtaposition is pretty clear.
The Gadsden flag highlights individual primacy, but the thin blue line sticker makes it clear that it’s his individual primacy that he’s concerned with. For an anti-authoritarian evoking that symbolism, the ‘me’ refers to the general autonomy of humanity or at least Americans, but in this case it probably literally refers to that specific individual’s autonomy or to the autonomy of the United States as a country in a nationalistic sense.
He’s basically just representing his subculture and thumping his chest about how nobody better tell him what to do or get in his way, while also showing that he’s affiliated with a big gang. Whether he’s aware of the racist speech the symbol is referencing or the symbol’s deeper meaning is kind of up in the air, but it still probably wouldn’t produce much conflict with his sense of nationalist autonomy in an authoritarian context regardless.
Honestly, it’s that context that I think makes the association with Punisher inevitable. Whether the character supports the current gang in charge or not, he clearly believes in an authoritarian model of crime and punishment; that’s the lens he views the world through and the impetus for his actions. If it’s satire, it certainly doesn’t read that way. Though, to be fair, the show is probably a lot more egregious in that regard than the comic (while also likely being more widely consumed).
Frank Castle supports authoritarian measures so much that he goes beyond what the legal system allows for. He literally names himself after an action designed to reinforce authoritarian hierarchy. Sounds pretty on the nose to me.
“Tread harder, daddy!” seems more like it
You can be fascist, and lawless now? How does that work?
That’s how it usually works. Consider Donald Trump.
What are the chances that this is about my last comments?
100% - welcome to SLRPNK and our culture of signal boosting and solidarity.
There’s a saying I first heard from cops in my country and then later saw pop up in several TV shows, the last one clear in memory being The Rookie.
The saying embodies that whenever cops decide to group together to the point of getting a symbol or name for said group, it’s only a matter of time before they go to jail.
In corrupt countries, they may not actually go to jail, but the point is that whenever cops do this, criminality will always ensue.
I don’t know where the US fits in your consideration of corruption but cops very rarely go to jail here, even (especially?) when they form up around a symbol. Here’s one example: the long-lived murderous LA Sheriff’s Department gangs. https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/
The point is that when they label themselves with a symbol or name, they up to some criminal shit already or before long.
And yes, sections of US police are corrupt as cops get away with murder on a daily basis.
Corruption doesn’t need to mean they are on the take (although there’s probably plenty that are), it can also simply mean that they turn any level of blind eye for their own or external groups.
The image is kind of wrong. The punisher does not hate cops. He doesn’t like cops that celebrate what he does.
I have read a lot of punisher over the years, and the thing that always infuriates me is how much handwringing there is by some of the writers that always ends up backsliding into “but it’s still pretty cool that he murders people with his super cool guns and a skull on his chest.” The only way to truly break from that image is to completely abandon who the punisher is and enter a new phase entirely that does not regress again. It needs to be like God of War 4. Kratos is not the same person he once was. Yes he is capable of violence, but he clearly does not relish it and does everything he can to avoid conflict as well as truly tries to teach his son that actions have consequences. He has had a spiritual change, essentially, and it is reflected in his actions and demeanor. No, he has not mastered it, no it is not perfect, but he is consistently trying to be better and grow. I cannot say the same for Frank Castle. It always becomes “…but I have to” when he’s barely tried anything else as he then instigates conflict.
Brief moments of “the punisher is actually kind of bad y’all“ that is always surrounded by constant firearm fetishization and glorifying murder/masculinity is just not convincing. No amount of little moments of clarity can fix that.
Is he fascist?
I don’t read a lot of punisher comics.
Depends which comics. People say it’s ironic cops use the Punisher skull, they say the character hates cops. These people never read Punisher: MAX. It’s not ironic, it’s right on brand. Plus people that read it in like 2008 are sometimes 30 year old cops now.
Oh, thank you for this, I was waiting for someone who knew anything about the comics to chime in. I’m going to check that out immediately.
Wasn’t his whole thing that he takes the extra steps to stop people from ever doing bad things again? I’ve also not read punisher though.
Depends on the writer. Sometimes he’s a contractor for the American government, he’s been a Frankenstein and an Iron Man, sometimes an outright fascist, sometimes killing fascists.
Last time I went through US customs the agent checking me had his backpack behind him with a punisher patch (plus a thin blue line one, because of course he did). Gotta use true fashy believers to check all them damn immigrants and all that…
