When talking about the best games of all time people generally mention Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Super Mario 64, Halo 3, The Last of Us, Nier Automata, etc. , but dismiss other great games.
What games do you think are unfairly forgotten from this conversation?
Personally I think the original Dead Rising, Fable: The Lost Chapters, Dragon’s Dogma: The Dark Arisen and Lunar: Eternal Blue should be talked as some of the best games of all time. They’re such great and unique games!
ooblets and fire watch are not difficult or lengthy games, but both were so enjoyable. i think casual games often get the short end of the stick unless there’s some online element a la animal crossing.
Dwarf Fortress deserves a mention for sheer audacity and scope.
Basically everything old. There’s such massive recency bias in game discussions. It’s very much an explicit marketing strategy to promote the new thing as more everything but somehow it’s infected almost all discussions.
Sure ok, playing an old game requires a bit more investment and effort than watching an old film or even reading an old book but mostly it’s just about lack of familiarity. Especially outside of fps style games where I’ll admit prior to halo 1 things were pretty all over the shop many older games are still approachable.
Coupled with the general dismissal of strategy and simulation genres (which were comparatively bigger in the past) and many things get forgotten outside of cult classic status.
Old is relative though. Age doesn’t hit movies or books nearly as hard as it does to games and gameplay mechanics, and where exactly that acceptable limit happens to be differ for each individual - with no doubt a large correlation based on your age.
It’s just really hard to imagine yourself in the shoes of someone who didn’t grow up with them and doesn’t have the appreciation and nostalgia of those times. Heck, back when I was a kid with my PSX, anything on the NES felt like an ancient unplayable relic.Idk, it’s pretty difficult to get my peers to check out black and white film, let alone silent, and yet most enjoy what they see.
I came to gaming after the NES (although I was alive at the time) and have recently been emulating games and have been surprised by how good some are.
There are still modern games that expect you to read a manual before playing, there are still modern games where it takes about 2 hours to learn the UI. There are older games with 3 page manuals and simple controls too.
You’ve got to remember you’re not immune to marketing tactics either. Like part of the resistance to checking out older stuff has been placed in us all by gaming companies training us to interpret stuff like low framerate as bad, or controls that aren’t fluid as bad.
Best game doesn’t necessarily mean most enjoyable now, or even an enjoyable experience at all. Some of the greatest art is difficult, unpleasant, and challenging. Some of the greatest video games are those that set trends, or do something unique despite rough edges, or are even straight up hostile to their player.
If I’m rattling down a list of my favorite games ever, they’re heavily concentrated in the last decade, with a couple of stragglers from earlier than that. I don’t think that’s recency bias; I think developers have just, in general, gotten better at honing in on what people like, especially in the age of rapid patching. There’s plenty of negative that comes along with this too, but for every game like Diablo IV that patches out builds because they were too much fun and impacted their live service retention rate, there are plenty of games coming out of early access after learning what worked and didn’t work with their players, much more rapidly than the old days of iterating on yearly sequels.
When it comes to arcade racers people seem to either forget or just don’t know about trackmania games. They aren’t perfect by any means but id certainly consider them among the best
Trackmania Nations has to be the peak of the series. One aspect that amazes me is that it works equally well with every input method out there. I’ve played this with a keyboard, joystick, gamepad and even steering wheel (although admittedly one without force feedback).
Freespace 1 & 2 deserve a mention here. Old games, so smaller in scope than modern games. But I feel they can compete still.
It just occurred to me that Death Really (1995) would deserve to be talked about as well, it’s just an incredible little game.
Master of Magic. I know strategy isn’t everyone’s thing and turn based isn’t either and high fantasy isn’t usually strategy staple, but it’s damn near perfect in execution. There are some minor nitpicks, but the game is definitely a 9/10*s. None of the spiritual successors have ever been so well executed. They always fall flat somewhere.
One title that comes to mind is Anachronox. A western rpg with a really good story, interesting characters (one of your companions is an entire planet shrinked down to human size), fun humor and a cliffhanger that never got resolved.
I really wish they made a part 2 but I know it will never happen.
It’s an RPG made in the west, but I’ve always heard that it was notable for being a JRPG.
It was a mix of both, the battle system was definitely like a JRPG that’s true.
Come to think of it, I’m not an expert on JRPG’s, so maybe it is? :) What else defines a JRPG?Definitions will vary from person to person, and plenty of games in each camp will represent some but not all of their defining characteristics, but you’ll see some common themes. Historically, I’ve also preferred western RPGs by a wide margin, so that might color some of my definitions below. Also, both of these branches in RPGs had the same starting reference of D&D, and then a multi-decade game of whisper down the lane led to them diverging more and more.
Western RPGs:
- character creation, choosing from classes that you’ll often see represented by other NPCs
- allocating attribute points, both at character creation and as you level up, that govern other things about your character
- generally flatter power progression (you might do hundreds more damage at the end of the game than you do at the beginning, but not hundreds of thousands more damage)
- in attempts to recreate the tabletop experience, will often times allow for outside-the-box solutions to problems besides combat as well as choices that affect the world state
JRPGs:
- usually a finite cast of characters that level up more or less only in one way, but you might have a secondary system for them to customize with equipment beyond weapons and armor
- combat usually doesn’t involve positioning on something like a tactical map but rather a line of combatants on each side of the screen
- magic and abilities are more often limited by a magic points resource instead of a rest system
- dialogue with NPCs tends to be more limited in choices, telling a more linear narrative
I’ll be honest, trying to differentiate these two with a list of bullet points was harder than I thought it would be to articulate. I’m almost more inclined to just say “I know it when I see it”, haha. But for some points of reference, I’d say Baldur’s Gate 3, Pillars of Eternity, and The Witcher 3 are western RPGs; Final Fantasy VII, Persona 5, and Pokemon are JRPGs; Sea of Stars is a JRPG that isn’t made by a Japanese developer; and while also an action game, Dark Souls is closer to being a western RPG than a JRPG.
When you put it like that I suppose Anachronox is definitely more of a JRPG. Either way, it’s a really good game :)
Thank you for your thorough explanation!
I think of it as a branching development becoming different design sensibilities. CRPGs influenced the game Dragon Quest, but JRPGS after DQ were influenced specifically by DQ and the games inspired from it such as the original Final Fantasy. CRPGS, MUDS, Dnd games, and Ultima became the basis for the Western sensibility which initially developed separately from the Dragon Quest branch (although there is still some crossover). This being the case, nowadays each region can make either Western RPGS or JRPGS because we all have pretty easy access to a lot of each others’ games and developers can make the games they prefer to make influenced by what they like regardless of its origin.
Undertale is a JRPG from the West. The maker of the game began making Rom hacks for Earthbound, a JRPG, and used the skills they learned doing that do create their own game. Dragon Quest>Earthbound>Undertale is pure JRPG. Other examples I can think of are messier, but that’s kind of the point.
Where are my Outer Wilds boys at?
Not a boy but I’m fucking HERE for Outer Wilds. And TUNIC, in the same vein.
I started playing the Outer Worlds thinking I had simply misheard the name Outer Wilds and found myself very confused but still kept trudging on. Thank you for bringing some sanity into my life; Wilds seems like the game I wanted to play the whole time, not Worlds. I’ll see how chaotic I can fuck out Worlds before I ditch it for Wilds.
Always ready to bump my favorite game of all time, but honestly I feel this is quite a popular opinion (compared to some of the games in OP’s list that are really overlooked on these discussions of best games ever).
But still, what an incredible experience, the OST for outer Wilds was my fourth most listened to on last year’s Spotify Wrapped :)
Thanks for reminding me!
For the people who do find out about it and it hooks them enough sure, it’s not really forgotten or underrated. But I still think it’s kinda obscure / not well known?
Yeah, it may not be as popular as Mario or Zelda, but I wouldn’t say it’s “unfairly forgotten”. People who have played the game tend to be pretty vocal about it. And justifiably so, I’ve never had a comparable experience in another game. I wish I could forget about it and play it again.
I’m not sure how this compares to Spotify but I still feel pretty good about this one
Journey redefined how I look at video games and the world, and honestly changed the course of my life for the better.
TUNIC may truly be the best game of all time
Outer Wilds shares the top spot with TUNIC
Celeste is the best precision platformer, and easily in the top 5 games of all time, though I suppose it is, much like Outer Wilds, quite highly regarded game among people who know it exists
Citizen Sleeper is unparalleled, I can wholeheartedly say more people need to know about this gem
Tunic has such an unique vision and it executes it expertly. On the surface it’s a zelda-like but it’s so much more than that, and it’s best experienced blind. In fact, that’s the whole idea. The developer wanted to replicate the experience of being a kid picking up a game in a different language that you had to figure out little by little.
Agreed! I don’t know if I will ever again experience as much enjoyment from a game as I did from tunic, but that’s okay, for having experienced tunic
Celeste is on my backlog and i just installed it on my laptop, i need to play it in 2024
Heartily recommend playing it on controller if you can, and enjoy the ride!
Remember: You can do this!
Yeah i’m mostly a controller player so that works for me. Is it that hard? I’ve played stone hard games like dmc/dark souls but this seems very different
I searched this thread for Gothic II and it was nowhere to be found. This brilliant masterpiece is even getting snubbed from lists of games getting snubbed. It really should be more known. This is a game that makes (no offense) OP’s Fable look like baby’s first RPG. Incredible world building, expert progression, meaningful choices, an entirely skill-based combat system that is basically a proto Dark Souls, so many clever touches everywhere. It’s so well designed, it’s one of few RPGs that credibly crosses into immersive sim territory - that’s how well its systems are connected.
I think Gothic 1 is much better. :p (it would totally deserve a spot in this conversation, but it’s a very highly regarded game )
I’m admittedly a bit biased, because I played Gothic II first, but I’m still curious as to why you prefer it over its sequel. In my opinion at least, the second game is a considerable step up.
Agreed, best RPG (perhaps best game) I ever played. So good I have to replay it at least once every few years.
Portal, Minecraft, Stardew Valley are just some you haven’t mentioned.
SDV hardly gets snubbed as one of the best games of all time. It’s constantly in the top sellers. I say this as a loving fan.
It’s kinda insane how much people dismiss “System Shock.” It’s a serious bedrock of a title, so much of what we take as a given of games was really pioneered by LookingGlass. I think a big chunk of that was due to the gameplay not really holding up to modern times, but hopefully now that Nightdive’s remaster is out, more people can experience it and realize just how much of the game holds up.
Probably a close second is the original “Half-Life”, in terms of really cementing the story-based first person shooter, but I don’t think anyone is going to call Half-Life snubbed.
I loved the first level of System Shock, now that it’s been modernized. Then I got to the second level, and resources were no longer scarce, and it didn’t appear to be shaking up the formula from level to level, so now it feels like Doom with an inventory system rather than the games that took inspiration from System Shock.
Half-Life is still pretty great, but as far as organically teaching the player, it’s far behind even its own sequel. There are a lot of cheap deaths that you just have to save scum your way through. My go-to example is that when Half-Life 1 introduces a sniper enemy, you see a hole in the wall that could look like a sniper’s nest if I told you that they existed in the game and if you squint at it a little bit, so you just get shot in the back. In Half-Life 2, you emerge from Ravenholm, and a combine sniper with a laser sight is clearly trained on some escaping zombies, so that you know that snipers in sniper’s nests are now a thing you’ll have to contend with, and you get to observe it safely once before dealing with them in the game. That kind of thing. 90s PC games seemed to be worse at this than their successors and console games at the time.
Don’t get me wrong, I also like TotK and BG3 and just replayed Outer Worlds (Fallout in spaaaace) and love me some “mainstream” games. But I think people unfairly exclude many genres when making these sorts of lists. E.g.: The Sims, Civ5, Minecraft, Pokemon, and many others that sold like hotcakes and have been extremely good games.
Personally, I’m always biased towards 4X, RTS, and similar, and find it strange they’re always overlooked. Europa Universalis 4 is ten years old and still getting DLC and updates – how many people must have played that game over ten years for the studio to justify that continued investment?
Strategy games are never featured outside maybe a grudging nod to StarCraft or Warcraft 3. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a list that mentions a 4X, a sim, or a non-Blizzard RTS. The closest you’ll usually see is someone listing Black & White.
Game journalists have to bounce between games as a job, so it sort of makes sense that the majority of them go for linear, shorter RPGs, and thus over-fixate on them.
I think the actual reason is that they only have a limited presence on consoles, which is what the majority of the English-speaking discourse on games is focused on. The genre also fizzled out in the early 2000s, which doesn’t help.
It’s hard to understate the effect Minecraft has had on me.
It got me into programming and modding games. It is such a treasure to me.
Sins of a Solar Empire is one of my all time favorites.
IMO, it’s hard to claim best game of all time unless it ages well, and not just some unique gimmick the game provided at the time.
Ie, I don’t like Tetris but for sure it is one of the best game of all time.
However, if what you mean is good games that somewhat get outshined by others or lacks media attentions, then I agree. There are plenty of other games, and I think people would have bias toward their favorite genre/type.
“Best” and “most important” are also two very different things. Like tetris, pong, doom and some other trail blazers might not be the kind of long-term engaging many people would think of when coming up with best games. But their impact and long term effects on the tech, the market or design of games is impossible to ignore.
that’s why I argue you can’t put “best” and “all time” together. If the title says “best game of their time but got snubbed by medias” then I might have a couple of my own to provide as example.
Yeah exactly, I agree
