“Kenny just began to gasp for air repeatedly and the execution took about 25 minutes total.”
Pretty compassionate way to kill a person.
Once again, the Law in the south is brutal.
I’m curious how they implemented this. The air completely has to be replaced with nitrogen, no breathing in a mix of nitrogen and outside air, no oxygen at all. People that enter confined spaces with no oxygen pretty much just drop and are dead quickly, so this doesn’t sound like they did it right.
They used a mask rather than the more appropriate method which would be to use a sealed chamber that was forcefully evacuated of oxygen and replaced by nitrogen the way the suicide pods are supposed to function.
The problem with a mask is it can’t be a perfectly sealed system. The issue with the execution from a logistical standpoint was the redneck engineering they employed and not the actual science behind nitrogen hypoxia.
Please don’t come at me, I’m not making a value judgment about the use of the death penalty, I’m just explaining the issue with their shoddy ass methodology.
Edit: accidentally a word.
Edit #2 (YouTube Link): Here is some additional information about why a gas mask is an ineffective and dangerous way to conduct an execution via nitrogen hypoxia from Dr. Philip Nitschke, a leading advocate of the right to die movement and an expert in the field of voluntary euthanasia. He personally examined the execution method being used in Alabama, and told them he felt it would be ineffective for many of the same reasons stated above.
You shouldn’t really need a seal if you have positive pressure. Agree that this was half-assed, though
FTR I’m generally against the death penalty, so same, don’t give me grief. I’m of the opinion that if it’s gonna be done, don’t fuck it up.
Ok. So regarding the implementation it sounds like they fucked it up. As you said (and I previously implied) it sounds like they didn’t properly exclude oxygen/remove waste CO2. Kinda hard to believe they fucked up something so simple considering the ton of evidence on hypoxic accidents.
Hot take, they don’t care because they are killing someone. The humanity part of it is completely removed. They care that they did the deed and it didn’t work. It should have been immediate. Someone should be losing their job. An Internet search could have prevented this.
Plus it’s Alabama. The cruelty has always been the point for as long as they have been a state
Surely they ought to care simply because if they continue to fuck it up they will lose public support for executions?
Well you and I would think that is obvious. I am not so sure what they are thinking.
Precisely. They apparently either felt it was fine to cut corners, do not fully understand how nitrogen hypoxia actually works, or a little bit of suffering was intentionally part of the process because it still is Alabama after all…
little bit of suffering was intentionally part of the process
Of course it was. They also didn’t want to use nitrogen, as there is no awareness at all if done correctly. The drugs they use with lethal injection likely induce panic and pain because they do not induce unconsciousness before it.
Executions have never been intended to be humane. They are punishment, vindication for the wronged. A childish obsession with a horrible misunderstanding of justice.
The big, really big issue, and I hate to say it. Is that, depending on the jurisdiction and laws in place, executions cannot be done by professionals. Most of the people who would know how to do it properly, medics, nurses, engineers, are ethically banned from participating or facilitating executions. Not that this stops them all from participating, and in some contexts some do, but on the general, executions on the USA are performed by completely incompetent individuals.
The more reason to just not fucking do them in the first place. How did they botched it using a mask when almost every single expert on medically assisted death recommends at least a sealed hood.
The people with the most experience with nitrogen suffocation are scientists working with animals. It’s the current best ethical euthanasia method.
Very good point.
Was gonna say, in Alabama you could give them a step by step guide and they’d take shortcuts.
You’re assuming they could read the steps in the first place. That guide better include pictures!
I think the bigger issue is that he was aware of when the nitrogen started, so tried holding his breath for as long as possible.
If he had the mask on and it was pumping breathable air, and then at some point switched to pure nitrogen without any warning that would be more humane because he wouldn’t know what was happening or when.
Lol at calling any of that humane. There’s nothing humane about suffocating a man against his will.
It sounds like your real issue is with the act of executing criminals rather than the method used.
Which is fine, but it’s a different discussion.
Also the guillotine is right there… it’s not pretty but the only method that “just works”.
He could have held his breath in a chamber too. The problem is it being forced on someone instead of being voluntary or unnoticed.
Make the switch from regular air to nitrogen at a random point and he’ll be dead before he realizes it.
He held his breath for 22min? No they fucked up the procedure. Even if he had held his breath at first he should have been unconsious the first time he took one. I’ve nearly been knocked out by nitrogen hypoxia before. It takes one lungfull of non oxygenated air to make you start to black out. He must have still been getting some oxygen somehow. It sounds like they were trying to use a mask (which is a dumb way to do it) so they probably didn’t use a high enough flow rate for the nitrogen and he was breathing in air from around the mask. They probably would have been better off forgetting about the mask entirely and just blowing nitrogen at his face at a much higher flow rate (that’s what almost did it for me).
their shotty ass methodology.
In case you didn’t know, that should be “shoddy” as in “made or done poorly”
Yes, that is what I was going for, thank you. I have now corrected my shoddy spelling 🙃😉
They often don’t. There are moderate risks with lethal injections, and even if you seem unconscious, it’s still disputed whether you would really be unaware or not. As for the gas, suffocate in any manner is very painful and unpleasant.
You are not being “suffocated” in the sense that you aren’t allowed to breathe. I suggest you do some looking around and check out events where people have entered spaces that can have no/limited oxygen such as mines or anchor chain lockers on ships. They often simply drop unconscious and are dead fairly quickly. The victim isn’t re-breathing CO2, which is what gives us that panicked lack of air feeling, or someone holding something over your face making it difficult to breathe.
If you’ve ever had a medical procedure that puts you under, I can assure you there’s nothing remembered to be aware of.
Your suffocation reflex is driven by a buildup of carbon dioxide, not a lack of oxygen.
If you leave air composition the same but remove the oxygen, your body doesn’t notice and you feel fine until you suddenly black out.
https://youtu.be/UN3W4d-5RPo?si=3LKw5fe1wXfRDcrB
The Air Force does training on it, since it can happen if the aircraft loses pressure and pilots need to know how to notice and handle it. As you can see in the above video, the pilot is not suffering even though the oxygen level has been cut quite drastically.
If you hold your breath you still build up CO2. You know, as a reaction to being killed.
So don’t announce “alright, now!” to the victim. Wait until they’re breathing normally and then silently switch over to nitrogen, he’ll be unconscious before he realizes it.
And after a couple minutes at most you will reflexively take a breath or pass out and start breathing. In an inert atmosphere that first breath will knock you out almost immediately. After that you won’t feel anything. After the individual is unconsious you just need to keep them in an inert gas for a few more minutes for them to actually die.
“Kenny just began to gasp for air repeatedly and the execution took about 25 minutes total.”
Even with a portion of that being ‘just to make sure’ his vital signs had stopped, it was certainly longer than a couple of minutes.
That’s the crux of the whole “this was done very, very wrong” thing people have been saying.
Because clearly they fucked something up. He was still getting oxygen somehow. I’m guessing they didn’t have the nitrogen flow high enough so he was still getting some oxygen.
It could have also just been agonal gasping which can last over an hour even after the person is already dead. It’s fairly common for people to see that and say the person is still breathing even though that person has already been dead for a while. It also happens with heart attacks and it frequently leads to ems having to explain to family members why there is no hope of resuscitation even though to them it looks like the person is still “breathing”.
I wonder how long Elizabeth Sennett struggled to live after Kenneth stabbed her to death. May she and her family rest in peace knowing justice has been served.
There are many accounts of workers accidentally entering confined spaces that have been purged with nitrogen and they were all unconscious in seconds. (OSHA records). If it took the prison 22 MINUTES to execute this guy, then they totally botched that execution.
Not defending what they did, but he was probably unconscious. His body was fighting for its life.
Quite the assumption
Unconscious doesn’t mean not suffering.
It kinda does though?
Cum doesn’t mean someone came
^Facts
78% of the air you and everyone breathes is nitrogen you dumb shit.
And that’s why, when you remove that critical 21% of oxygen, your body doesn’t realize it’s suffocating. You breath normally but pass out really quickly since your brain has nothing to burn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inert_gas_asphyxiation?wprov=sfla1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarco_pod?wprov=sfla1
Some reporter from Salon, or Wire - some big site like that - participated in a controlled nitrogen hypoxia experiment on himself, and wrote about it. It was really interesting, but search engines are flooded with that Alabama execution, and I lost interest in searching for it.
If you can find it https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1228865 is a good watch. It covers other methods, but it becomes clear how fast, effective, and painless nitrogen asphyxiation can be, as the presenter has to receive assistance in order not to die while attempting to get close to the experience (without dying).
It’s also a bit sad, as it makes it clear that for at least some capital punishment advocates, suffering is a desired part of the outcome.
I’d like to avoid death, but I can foresee a potential future when my quality of life is negative and no amount of volunteer effort can bring it positive. If that happens, I’d like to opt-in to mortality via inert gas (probably nitrogen) asphyxiation.
If we must have capital punishment, inert gas asphyxiation seems to be the best known way to do it. I’m not convinced we must have capital punishment, tho.
Nice! I hadn’t seen that.
People are going to need to die in controlled ways; whether in believing some people should be murdered by the State, or in believing people should be allowed to end their own lives, there are few Americans who don’t fall somewhere outside of the set of people who think there is never a case for controlled human death. Most of those people are probably Amish, or some branch thereof.
Alabama clearly fucked this one up - I guess that’s what happens when you drive all of the STEM folks out of your state. There was no reason - other than wanting a person to suffer, as you said - for it to have gone so wrong. Justified or not, if I were to ever find myself in that chair, asphixiation by nitrous is absolutely the way I’d want to go. And that’s the most basic measure of humanity we need: do unto others.
I agree with you but please note it is nitrogen, not nitrous, being discussed.
But – nitrous (N2O) is more fun and has just as little usable oxygen – zero
For easy access to an inert gas at-home, try a helium tank from the Party Store
Found on Vimeo: link
If download preferred: via swisstransfer.com
Fun fact for friendly posters: companies that make gas detectors use lots of nitrogen because it’s a great “zero” gas. That is, 100% dry nitrogen equates to “nothing there” on sensors for all kinds of gases.
Including oxygen sensors! Did you know in air they measure 20.8% and in nitrogen they measure zero point zero?
Is this bait? Lol
Water is also 33% oxygen but I dare you to try to breathe it
What are you even hinting at? That breathing 100% nitrogen is fine??
The gas mixture clearly had oxygen still in it. If he’s gasping for air for 22 minutes, he was still receiving low amounts of O2.
Yeah I think when an airplane depressurizes at high altitude it’s something like 5 minutes and people are unconscious. And people just act like drunken idiots after one minute.
Remember in the event of depressurization, put your own mask on before helping others. Because you’re likely to be a just complete idiot that’s just getting in the way if your brain isn’t properly oxygenated.
But anyway… yeah these guys fucked up. A big problem with executions that people don’t talk about is that there isn’t a lot of overlap on the Venn diagram of people that are competent enough to perform an execution vs. the people who are willing to perform an execution.
I don’t know anything about this other than the guy most have been pretty terrible to be on death row but even a brutal killer should have some rights nobody deserves to die like that
His victim died far more painfully if that helps.
It does not. We are not animals.
We are, in fact, animals. You need to dial back your notions of personal divinity.
Yes. We are. My god what happened to public schooling?
False. He died far more painfully of hypoxia that took over 5 minutes and he was able to dread it coming for years.
Good.
Justice isn’t revenge.
Never said it was.
Justice is giving what’s owed. And that’s a great thing to argue about: What did he owe? To the family, the victim, and society. The question would be easy if taking his life restored the life of the woman he murdered. But that’s not possible. However I have seen arguments that would require his death so organs could be harvested to save the life of others who would otherwise die. I’m not comfortable with that but do think that debate needs to happen.
Are you fucking mad? You want to give the state an incentive to murder prisoners? What the fuck is wrong with you?
ALL COPS ARE BAD
I think we need to have the debate. If you murder someone, do you owe your life if it can save the life of another?
I think we need to have the debate.
Humans LONG before you had the debate already. Pick up a history book, please! You are not a unique snowflake with concepts this earth has never before thought about. Everything that rattles around in the paint-can on your neck has been debated for generations.
Find a major US newspaper who had addressed the debate any time in the past generation.
As a transplant recipient who is now listed for a second transplant.
Nobody wants the state to murder people to increase the supply of organs.
Stop couching your vengeance fantasies in altruism.
Logical argument don’t work around here. These kids need to be outraged and there’s no stopping them.
“Logical”
For a sociopath maybe.
Good thing most of us live in a developed nation where we don’t try to take an eye for an eye, since that makes the whole world go blind. You can never be 100% certain they aren’t innocent.
I’m sorry, people are justifying the death penalty by fucking harvesting organs?
These are some serious dumbshits who don’t think two syllables past what they are saying.
First of all, there’s the obvious ethical dilemma of sentencing someone to death because someone important needs a kidney and they happen to have the same rare blood type. You just know that’s bound to happen eventually, and you know it’ll be covered up. More than likely it’d be some trumped up charge against a black inmate who already had a life sentence and no means for recourse.
Second, the majority of murderers are criminals. And a lot of criminals have a history of drug abuse, alcoholism, and other risk factors for communicable disease and excessive wear on their organs. 99% of the organs to come out of this mill would be totally useless. No surgeon in the world would touch them with a 15ft forceps.
God it’s make more sense to auction off their organs as trophies and give the proceeds to reputable charities. I’d pay good money to have a serial rapists balls in a jar on my mantle. Thats a hell of a conversation piece.
So an eye for an eye?
even a brutal killer should have some rights
Dude, sincerely, fuck off.
A brutal killer should have no rights and should be killed brutally.
He wasn’t a brutal killer, he was hired to kill someone and did it out of greed. That’s actually not brutality. Brutality would be someone raping someone and then killing them for glee. The state in this case is doing this out of brutality, they are doing it because it brings enjoyment and their method of execution is quite brutal.
You sound like a republican
I don’t even live in America
Well you sound like the equivalent of a republican in your country probably a British conservative
Lmao guess again
There’s also this bit…
When asked at the news conference about Smith shaking at the beginning of the execution, Hamm said Smith appeared to be holding his breath “for as long as he could” and may have also “struggled against his restraints.”
That’s false spin. Nitrogen air is just regular air minus oxygen, 78% of the air you breathe is nitrogen. He was suffocated to death simply put, he died of hypoxia. It would be like someone getting shot, but then taking 5-8 minutes to slowly die minus the immediate burning pain of a gun shot or sudden drop in consciousness from immediate/fast bleed out.
He only killed one person too. Seems he killed the wrong person, maybe someone with power/connections. It makes no sense how he gets the death penalty but other murders don’t.
I don’t believe in the death penalty first off its cheaper just to give someone life Imprisonment and second its morally wrong
How is it cheaper though? I don’t support death penalty, but I fail to see how it’s cheaper to keep them alive?
Someone who’s life is on the line will tend use every possible legal resource possible to avoid getting killed. Survival instinct.
On the other side, people making the decision to kill a guy tend to want to make sure they got it right.
So lots of appeals, lots of time in the court. Lawyers and judges get paid a lot more than prison guards, and the cost of prison guard is spread over many prisoners, while the cost of the judge and lawyers for an appeal is all just for that one person on death row. Courtrooms tend to be nicer than prison cells so the upkeep cost of infrastructure is also higher. Doesn’t take all that much time in a courtroom to come out to a higher cost than keeping a guy in a prison for the rest of his life.
… and third sometimes they get it wrong and execute an innocent person. You can release an innocent person from prison when you screw up, but there no undo for an execution.
Fourth, the process of carrying out an execution can get botched. While there are plenty of people that have the necessary skills needed to carry out an execution, nearly all of those people won’t do it because of that hippocratic oath thing.
Fifth, it’s just a bad look. It feels like it’s more about revenge and than justice, and it’s important to not get these things confused.
This 100% agree
Pray tell, what is your favourite method of execution?
Guillotine
As a general rule I tend to avoid killing people whenever possible
Obviously. It’s far too much work. That’s what I pay my executioners for.
Snu Snu
Firing squad, guillotine. Walk the plank.
As someone who gets nitrogen at the dentist office with a mask I have a theory that it was just him consciously fighting it. It’s positive pressure nitrogen that you just breath in at normal breath rate. If you breath really hard you can displace the nitrogen and suck in some regular air. It sounds like he fought it which caused it to take longer. It is the standard human reaction to fight against one’s own death and I’m guessing he thought that if they held out long enough they would stop. If they are going to use a mask like that as opposed to a hood or chamber they really should sedate the person first.
I don’t support capital punishment.
But hypoxia in humans is well studied. Unless they were using monumental stupid gas like CO2 (which triggers your breathing reflex) then the problem wasn’t the method, in principle.
I wouldn’t put it past a execution supporter to fuck it up somehow, though.
Barbaric.
I’m waiting for the witch trials to restart in the US.
Another reason not to visit the place
When is America going to learn that you can’t punish murder with murder? You are literally saying “rules for thee but not for me.”
Where’s all the people that said we “do actually know what it does to people and it’s painless” now?
State sactioned torture and murder. This was no execution, this was torturing someone to death.
Sorry. I can’t emphasize with criminals. It’s impossible for me. The only thing that is weird to me is why on earth you took almost 40 years to execute a prisoner? It doesn’t make sense. And other thing. I hope all the 4 criminals get the same punishment as well. It looks like the idiot paid the most. “Pastor Charles Sennett Sr. hired Billy Gray Williams, one of his tenants, to murder his wife, 45-year-old Elizabeth Dorlene Sennett.[6] To carry out the plan, Williams hired Kenneth Smith and John Forrest Parker to assist him.[6] Sennett was going to pay each of the men $1,000 for the murder.[6] On March 18, 1988, Elizabeth Sennett was found with fatal injuries in her home in Colbert County, Alabama.[6]”
Says his religious advisor, who is against the death penalty.
Look I can’t help but feel deceived.
Every single time the death penalty was brought up, nitrogen asphyxiation was touted as a humane alternative. There were always claims that it would be painless, and that the process itself was extremely well understood. It was usually further implied that the reason states don’t do this was because death penalty advocates wanted the prisoner to suffer as long as possible.
Yet the second nitrogen asphyxiation became a viable option, the very same people touting it lined up against it. Suddenly it was completely unproven. Suddenly it was wholly inhumane and inflicted suffering.
It’s so incredibly obvious that the push for nitrogen asphyxiation was at least in part a bad faith argument by people who are philosophically opposed to the death penalty.
Being philosophically opposed to the death penalty is a valid opinion, but the dishonesty makes me much less inclined for me to take these people seriously.
I don’t think I’m unique in that regard. Nobody likes being deceived or lied to.
IDK about you guys, but in raising our kids we believed it was important that they know where meat comes from. So when slaughtering poultry the kids help out. Maybe apply the same thing here?
If you support capital punishment, then you must sign up for firing squad duty. If less than 50% of voters sign up for firing squad duty, then the death penalty is abolished.
Talk is cheap, conscience is expensive!
