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OP: “We’ve tragically gone down a path of quantifying and min-maxing every aspect of existence, including creativity and the value of human life.”
Comments: “OP clearly doesn’t understand the comparative efficiency of the ROI here.”
Irony so thick you can cut it.
He chose a poor way of conveying his message.
The robot dystopia will not be caused by evil AI enslaving humanity.
No matter how advanced or how self aware, AI will lack the ambition that is part of humanity, part of us due to our evolutionary history.
An AI will never have an opinion, only logical conclusions and directives that it is required to fulfil as efficiently as possible. The directives, however, are programmed by the humans who control these robots.
Humans DO have ambitions and opinions, and they have the ability to use AI to enslave other humans. Human history is filled with powerful, ambitious humans enslaving everyone else.
The robot dystopia is therefor a corporate dystopia.
I always roll my eyes when people invoke Skynet and Terminator whenever something uncanny is shown off. No, it’s not the machines I’m worried about.
No matter how advanced or how self aware, AI will lack the ambition that is part of humanity, part of us due to our evolutionary history.
The ambition isn’t the issue. Its a question of power imbalance.
The Paperclip Maximizing Algorithm doesn’t have an innate desire to destroy the world, merely a mandate to turn everything into paperclips. And if the algorithm has enough resources at its disposal, it will pursue this quixotic campaign without regard for any kind of long term sensible result.
The robot dystopia is therefor a corporate dystopia.
There is some argument that one is a consequence of the other. It is, in some sense, the humans who are being programmed to maximize paperclips. The real Roko’s Basilisk isn’t some sinister robot brain, but a social mythology that leads us to work in the factors that make the paper clips, because we’ve convinced ourselves this will allow us to climb the Paperclip Company Corporate Ladder until we don’t have to make these damned things anymore.
Someone screwed up if a paperclip maximiser is given the equipment to take apart worlds, rather than a supply of spring steel
Thats the beauty of it. The maximizer would understand that creating a machine that breaks appart worlds would maximize the paperclip output. It will be a “natural” progression
We’re not even close to artificial general intelligence, so I’d like to see if you have anything to substantiate this claim.
(Not saying it’s far fetched, though, just that it seems silly to be so sure at this point in time.)
Have you met people with opinions? A lot of their opinions consist of preprogrammed responses that you could train a bot to regurgitate.
Just build one of these but fucking massive.
There you go, automated shipbreaking.
Yeah life would be so simple if shit like this would scale infinitely. Sadly, you can’t do that. Also, there is a shitton of other metals and materials inside the ship. Shipbreaking is about recycling, not destroying a ship.
Yeah, my comment was mostly made in jest.
Without a disposable army of third world workers, they’d probably just drag all this stuff to the middle of the Pacific and scuttle it. The raw materials just aren’t worth the cost of retrieving them at first world wages and safety standards.
Realistically, the only thing that can sort of fix it is changing how ships are built to make them easier to recycle. Not a lot you can do with the existing ones, but the ship builders might be more inclined to fix it if you charged them the recycling cost at the point of supply, with easier, safer recycling meaning a lower charge. Be a slow process though.
Don’t need AI for that.
I get the sentiment, but that is a really dumb take. Software automation is a hell of a lot easier than creating robotic automation to disassemble ships of all shapes and sizes. Like how would that even be possible? Presumably you’d need to break the ships down into pieces first, and even then you’ll be dealing with huge numbers of oddly shaped and sized components. It makes a lot more sense to have people do that though it is likely very dangerous.
Seems more like a job for unions and workplace safety regulations than for robots
more like a job for unions and workplace safety regulations
Yes. That’s why they do these things in 3th world countries. The people there are cheaper than robots will ever be.
3th
threeth.
When teaching about programming languages that are zero indexed, I avoid the word “first” because it is ambiguous and instead use “zeroth” and “oneth.”
Software automation being easier seems like a reason to not have so many people doing it, then? Like, the harder problem is the one that could really use all of the focus?
But the harder problems aren’t as obviously profitable for a large number of tech CEOs, and they’re not ripe for being a “winning glittery ticket” for a large number of comp sci students looking to be the next big thing in Silicon Valley.
I get the sentiment, but that is a really dumb take.
$13B invested in OpenAI feels more and more like malinvestment and graft, incentivized by our disastrous energy policy and enormous tech subsidies.
This isn’t purely software automation. Its also an investment in physical media and machines, new or renovated energy infrastructure, and enormous volumes of potable water.
Seems more like a job for unions and workplace safety regulations than for robots
In 2020, a leaked company memo detailed Amazon’s use of a new technology — the geoSPatial Operating Console (SPOC) — to analyze and visualize data sets pertaining to threats to the company, including unions. Reported by Jason Del Rey and Shirin Ghaffary at Vox, some of the data points related to unions include:
Amazon-owned Whole Foods’ market activism and unionization efforts. Flow patterns of union grant money. The presence of local union chapters and alt labor groups.
The approach is an obvious attempt by the company to use more passive means of identifying and neutralizing union sympathizers in the company.
“Amazon’s tracking of workers’ micro-movements, decision points and searches and then linking all of that data to that of unions, community groups and legislative policy campaigns is union busting on its face,” said Stuart Appelbaum, President of the Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union (RWDSU) in a statement at the time.
That is very true, but my critique was more focused on the difference between automating software tasks vs mechanical tasks, especially with non-uniform inputs and not the economic investment required. Some tasks are better suited to automation - and plagiarizing art is far easier than deconstructing and recycling massive industrial freighters.
Not on the side of the AI art generators here - that was just low hanging fruit compared to something like was suggested in the original post. Definitely need extremely strong labor law to protect against AI union busting (and union busting generally)
my critique was more focused on the difference between automating software tasks vs mechanical tasks
Somewhat paradoxically, we’ve been much more successful automating mechanical tasks than digital ones. We’ve had steam looms and automotive assembly plants far longer than server farms and super computers.
And I might argue this kind of automation has been far more fruitful. I can point to a lot more in my daily life that has benefited from the industrialization of steel and plastic fabrication than what I’ve received from Google Search Results.
To say the millions of man-hours and trillions of dollars sunk into the advertisement and entertainment industries couldn’t be put to better use… Come on, man. The latest Marvel movie wasn’t so good that I wouldn’t have traded it for a globalized 1980s British NHS.
I think you absolutely nailed the analysis. Another small point to keep in mind is that for Microsoft, all the investment in OpenAi comes back as a revenue figure when the system works operating on top of the Azure platform.
I can assure you that the finest minds are not in ad tech.
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Because those are byproducts of trying to build AGI to help augment the white collar workforce, which as others have said purely digital work is just lower hanging fruit right now.
It may cost millions of dollars to build a model, but that can be after an exponential amount of iterations. Doing the same with IRL hardware and capital is the exception not the norm.
The next phases are better digital twins and applying these advances to them to find strategic meat space projects to put hours to.
I mean, you can still write and make art? AI isnt taking that away from you? If you’re upset that its replacing you career wise, maybe you’re just upset that you need a job to live and that livelihood is at the whims of capitalists?
You use the word upset as in there is no rational reason to care about this and emotions are invalid or lesser.
Anyway, cameras and paintings…
It can be both. Why is the first thing we’re seeking to automate with this current generation of ai the creative careers that humans can do?
We’re not “seeking” to do anything. Ai art is a pretty logical and inevitable step in our progress in this recent breakthrough in machine learning. But we’re making AI out of everything for which there is a large amount of data on the internet. The same tech that is creating AI art by stealing assets off of the Internet is also combing through sequenced DNA to find patterns and analyzing telescope data to find anomalies.
And none of this new AI tech has anything to do with robotics or ship dismantling so it makes sense that that isn’t the field being advanced by it. Although I bet you could fiddle with AI to analyze data around ship dismantling to make it more efficient.
Because they happened to be the fields that got there first. It’s not like these are recent trends, ELIZA and AARON are from the 1960’s. But it really is just the perfect example of “They were so preoccupied with if they could they never stopped to think if they should” spread over 60 years of technological advancement.
Its another tool. For me one that has allowed me to access my creativity FAR MORE than any artistic tool previous. Did photoshop destroy photography? Did Photography destroy realistic paintings? If you dont like the tool personally, all previous artistic tools humanity has created are still available to you
Photography actually did destroy photorealistic painting as a career. All those painted portraits you see in museums were basically the old timey version of selfies. Photography replaced that job.
As a career yes, but there are still artists whom that medium speaks to. As time marches on jobs will get replaced, and we can either try and adapt society towards not NEEDING jobs to live, or we can keep having peoples livelihoods wiped out because of advancements in tech, instead of lives improved.Or do you think we should get rid of camera tech?
OP what’s the actual fediverse link? I want to Boost it on Mastodon but all I get is a link to a .jpeg
I do industrial automation for a living, and I just want to point out that automating things that exist purely in the digital domain is far easier than automating things like ship breaking.
[…] I just want to point out that automating things that exist purely in the digital domain is far easier than automating things like ship breaking.
Not that you’re saying otherwise, however isn’t that even more of a reason more developers and resources should be allocated toward automating complex and risky physical processes?
Processing the digital world is just the first step. You can’t just build a safe autonomous ship disassembly robot without making sure your algorithms are actually sound. Look at self driving cars, they’re far from being safe and acceptable. Jumping straight into this problem without testing the shit out of your code in a virtual world is a mistake.
Honestly, I don’t see how you would do it without general AI, which is something that will be solved in the digital domain first anyway.
Eh, it could be done with non-general AI. There are a finite number of different types of things to handle, so as long as it’s not thrown off by some bent steel or some missing consoles, I’d be amazed if they couldn’t automate at least specific ship designs.
They still manually build ships right now what makes you think they could automate taking one apart
Firstly, much of shipbuilding is automated. They use robots to paint them and apply anti-fouling coatings. They also use loads and loads of automated machinery to create the steel parts that make up most of the ship. Do you think some dudes are forging rivets, beams, and pipes by hand? No, those are made by machines that make zillions of them.
Secondly, nearly every ship–even ships that seem generic like big container ships–is a custom, one-off thing. They’re all bespoke (for the most part), being engineered for specific purposes, routes, and they even have “upgrades” for companies that pay extra (e.g. nicer quarters, extra antenna masts, more and special equipment mounting options, etc).
They use robots to paint them and apply anti-fouling coatings. They also use loads and loads of automated machinery to create the steel parts that make up most of the ship. Do you think some dudes are forging rivets, beams, and pipes by hand? No, those are made by machines that make zillions of them.
The missing piece here is assembly, and disassembly is like 95% of what goes into recycling from what I understand.
Notice how my post is not talking about the present tense.
Automation requires very high precision/consistency in the parts you want to work on. I seriously doubt that after many years of wear, tear, and impromptu repairs, those ships would be anywhere near consistent enough.
That’s why I said, “eventually with non-general AI”.
Even a well written algorithm could work with something that’s mostly in expected shape. How in the flying fuck is everyone so brainless that they cannot understand non-general AI can still adapt to things? Fucking hell.
I’m not talking about current industry practices. I’m talking about combining existing technology with unlimited bidget to create a factory that could kinda’ do the task.
“Possible” and “practical” are two extremely different things, and you goons pointing out that most obvious basic fact are adding nothing.
A single repair or modification would ruin the entire automation process. One single screw off by a single mm type thing.
Why the flying fuck do you think I said, “non-general AI”? Even a well written algorithm could handle things coming in not in perfect shape, yet everyone pretends “non-general AI” means, “execute instructions repeatedly without any input what so ever.”
Use your brain. Even basic dumb algorithms that can run on an Arduino can respond to input. Machine learning can easily respond to dynamic input, so stop failing to imagine the most basic of basic things I say.
That doesn’t exist yet, and we can’t even build a ship with one. And you’re trying to say we can take one apart?
Use your fucking brain lmfao. It will be thrown off by bent metal, it will be thrown off by repairs, it will be thrown off by a rusted screw, it will be thrown off by a million other potential issues.
It ain’t ever gonna work for a billion reasons, you aren’t smarter than other people mate lmfao. You’re dumber for claiming it will even be possible lol. Nice take though.
Non-general AI does already exist, at least as far as disassembling something with a blueprint is concerned. If it’s already a trash heap, just scrap it the old fashioned way, you fucking numpty.
You assume it will be thrown off because you are too stupid to imagine something you don’t understand. There is literally NO reason to assume it’d be dumber than current tech.
Not that you’re saying otherwise, however isn’t that even more of a reason more developers and resources should be allocated toward automating complex and risky physical processes?
You’re solving for the wrong problem from the perspective of people with money investing money to solve these problems.
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Shipbreaking, while dangerous for the workers, isn’t expensive because it is done in far flung countries with workers that have low wages, few protections for safety, and long term health consequences.
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Art and writing (for western consumption) requires educated and talented people which are expensive to employ.
People with money, looking for a return, want that return their spending, not reduce human suffering.
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Cant imagine how it even could be automated without advanced robotics. Those ships are freakin HUGE! Maybe a collection of robotic snakes with cutting lazers attached to their heads and some little scuttle bots to pick up the pieces the snakes knock off? Just cut the whole thing into 1’ disks or maybe hexagons is better
Definitely not terrifying
Just make a huge version of those supermarket bread slicer machines and feed the ships through it.
Or better yet, build a bigger ship and use it to smash the smaller ship to pieces
Maybe a collection of robotic snakes with cutting lazers attached to their heads
Upvoot for the matrix
What do you think snakes are
I just read The Three Body Problem, and I have some ideas on how it could be done.
Oh! One of my favorite books, have you read all three?
Not yet, but I will!
Oh, there is actually a fourth one by a different author but with Liu Cixin’s approval. It goes deeper into the trisolarian biology than the main series. I havent read that one yet
I’d suggest skipping it. While it’s a fun continuation, the writer is not nearly as good as Liu Cixin. It’s definitely a fanfic
This kind of makes me curious! I didn’t finish the third book of the original trilogy …
The three book problem
It can be automated it would just never be worth the cost. Every ship is different and has its own requirements.
If they were all 100% exactly the same, using the same hardware in all the same places then it would be cost effective to automate their disassembly. Otherwise every single ship is a one-off edge case.
Even if they’re mostly the same many will have had upgrades, repairs, and changes over time that could literally throw a wrench (that someone accidentally left inside an interior area) into the whole (automated) operation.
I think the best case scenario is to enforce shipbuilding standards and deny ships entry if they don’t follow them (for loading/unloading, anyway). Then you setup standardized dry docks with robotic arms that are already preprogrammed to disassemble these standard vessels. They may need human guidance for some areas that are allowed to be non-conforming but as long as the majority of the ship adheres to the standard it’d make the whole process much smoother and more environmentally friendly.
From an environmental standpoint the real issues from these vessels isn’t even the difficulty of (environmentally friendly) disassembly. It’s their emissions over their working lifetime and super toxic things like anti-fouling coatings that where we have no good way to remove or dispose of them. Like, even if you rip off the outside of a ship what do you do with that toxic waste? It’s nasty stuff.
I mean automating it would certainly be a challenge but the first step would be building tools and robotics to allow human operators to more safely and effectively manage the tasks. Then you streamline the industrialized processes. Then you think about automating things.
But this is all really an economic problem, not a technical one. Software tools have minimal resource costs (compared to building/destroying a ship) but require skilled (expensive) laborers to operate. So to cut costs in any digital field you need to get rid of the expensive laborers. Thus the push for AI to replace any computer-bound work. Physical labor is already considered dirt-cheap in our fucked society, and no one is rushing to add expensive tools in fields where disposable people will suffice.
I sympathize immensely with the OP image’s final point, but “working for the right company” isn’t going to fix it. Reorganizing society is necessary, rethinking what we culturally value and uphold.
That is really cool job description I haven’t seen pop up before! Would you mind sharing what type of things you need to automate? It sounds so interesting, I never really understood why factory line jobs should exist for example * because the work is dangerous, the opposite of stimulating/engaging (works for some sure), and just generally overall depressing unpleasant places to work. We SHOULD be striving for a world where humans don’t have to do such menial unfufilling work.
*very superficially, all the nuance that makes it continue to be necessary and exist I understand)
I work in the auto industry, so programming the machines that make the car parts. Humans are still involved because getting machines to handle changing conditions is very slow, expensive, and still winds up unreliable in a lot of cases. The simple process of picking a randomly oriented part up out of a bin and placing it accurately on a fixture is actually very difficult for a machine to do, when compared to how easily a human can accomplish the exact same task.
Once we perfect doing it in software, then we can graduate to hardware. Today, digital paintings; tomorrow, real paintings; next year, tear down a fucking ship!
I think the solution for ship breakers is for the job to be a highly paid respectable job with protections. In other words the technology that desperately needs to disrupt this industry is probably… unions
Unions protect against automation that reduces labor hours.
Yeah I think that’s the point. Shit breaking is apparently poorly paid so they need unions.
I also not sure how much scope there is for automation on tasks like this as each shit will be different there isn’t going to be a huge amount of repeatable action
Your autocorrect is amazing
Honestly more unions should fight for company stock for employees or similar stake programs. As we hopefully get more automated having workers interests aligned against it seems like a losing fight.
Yeah exactly, I work in AI and robotics for medicine, and im so goddamn sick and tired of these people and their absolute god-awful uneducated takes on AI.
And this guy’s claiming to be a programmer too which makes it doubly worse because he really should know better.
It stems from people who seem to think that having the idea is the hard part, and the implementation is just a matter of time and money.
Shh. Just give one of them dancing robot dogs an impact driver attachment. They’ll figure it out in a week.
Finally, some fucking sense into all of this.
I remember years ago everyone was saying that art would probably be the last thing AI would be able to handle and menial jobs would probably be the first.
Now look at where we are!
It’s because people like to think that art is some unique human ability. They never really explain why they think this, they just say it.
But really it’s just about looking at the world and creating representations of it in various styles. None of which is some ineffable thing. It’s all electrons moving around a system at the end of the day, it is all physical. If it is physical, then it can be simulated.
They never really explain why they think this, they just say it.
But- muh 'magination! Robo cain’t do dat!
Big reason why I just build cute little games as a hobby instead of writing spreadsheet software for a megacorp to optimize the lowest quarterly earners out of a job, or develop AI to optimize myself out of a job.
I wonder what he’s a developer for?
The most automated stuff are tedious things like rotoscoping. Creative projects still require human expertise to assemble, fine-tune, and use ML tools effectively.
Repetitive Basic tasks have been continually made more manageable by technology, and thanks to that skilled professionals have been able to complete more ambitious projects that would have been impossible for individuals or small groups to take on before.
This sort of ignores the fact that the advances in that technology are widespread applicable to all tasks, we literally just started with text and image generation because:
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The training data is plentiful abd basically free to get your hands on
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It’s easy to verify it works
LLMs will crawl so that ship breaking robots can run.
Second this.
We’re in the first days and everyday I add a new model or tech to my reading list. We’re close to talking to our CPUs. We’re building these stacks. We’re solving the memory problems. Don’t need RAG with a million tokens, guerrilla model can talk with APIs, most models are great at python which is versatile as fuck, I can see the singularity on the horizon.
Try Ollama if you want to test things yourself.
Use GPT4 if you want to get an inkling of the potential that’s coming. I mean really use it.
He’s ignoring it because he’s not complaining about the tech, but the way it’s being used. Instead of being used to make it easier for artists and writers to do their jobs, it’s being used to replace them entirely so their bosses don’t have to pay them. It’s like when Disney switched to 3d animation. They didn’t do it because the tech was better and made the job easier. They did it because 2d animators are unionized and 3d animators aren’t, so they could pay the new guys less.
And these are the kinds of jobs people actually want - to the point where they don’t pay anywhere near as well as they should because companies can exploit people’s passion for what they do.
Imagine a world of construction workers and road crews, but no civil engineers, architects, or city planners. Imagination and creativity automated away in the name of the almighty profit margin.
Yep and when we invented mechanical computers, we put human computers out of the job.
When we invented the automatic loom we put weavers out of the job.
When we invented electric lights we put lamplighters out of the job.
When we invented digital art we put many brushmakers, canvas makers, paint makers out of the job.
This is the cost of progress.
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