I WFH, every year one of the goals that the rest of the team decides is that it’s “so great” to see each other in person. The past few years haven’t worked out but one did. I spent hours in a couple of airports, the huge expense for the company, I spent days away from my family, and for what? So you could look me in my same face you would see if we turned cameras on every once in a while? My husband says I’m being weird, but I legitimately want to know, what is the benefit? I hate being there and have to play nice so you can…look me even closer in the face?
If I only ever have to see my team once a year, I take it as a win, fake it til I make it, pretend it’s amazing for flatter my boss and team.
Everyone would think I’m an asshole if I wasn’t positive and polite about the one whole day we are forced to eat fucking bagels together.
It’s hard to trust someone I’ve never met. I don’t want to travel either but I want to understand the people I work with in a way that’s only possible when we share space.
It’s work. It’s not always fun but that’s too be expected.
Agree. non-verbal comunication and body language, sincerity, humour, reactions and building trust are all things that are much easier in person.
If you can have that with the people you work with then it can makes work easier in all sorts of ways.
Would you rather do remote team building exercises regularly?
Fair question! I’d say no. There is some benefit, but nothing replaces in-person interaction.
For those of us who WFH, I think there’s a balance to be figured out. All of this is really new.
Yes
I’d rather not do team building exercises because I find them pointless.
You sound like a shitty teammate
Some people really like in-person socialization. There’s something lost in the webcam only meeting. I’m glad you adapted well to the circumstances of the pandemic, but not everyone faired so well. I can tell ya I went a lil bonkers not being able to see people in person.
How you felt, going bonkers, is roughly how many introverts feel being around people. So, the three years that introverts felt good in the history of… forever, many of us would like to keep that. I just ask that extroverts respect how shitty the workforce is especially for introverts and maybe try to get their social needs met in their personal life and not demand that work time also fit only their needs. At the expense of others.
As an introvert, as much as I feel weird aroind people, I feel even weirder video chatting with people I’ve never met in person. In that situation, I have no idea how to read people and the expectations are way harder to try to meet. This makes meetings even worse until I meet them.
While I agree that forced in person work daily is insane, the OP is complaining about meeting people in person once after many years, which feels equally as ridiculous. IMO even for widely dispersed teams, meeting a few times a year seems ideal.
Some people do not care about reading people or meeting expectations of people at work. They just want to do whatever is strictly necessary to get some money to live, and then get away from the whole thing.
They may not care, but reading people and meeting expectations of your colleagues is pretty much a bare minimum level of functioning for most professional positions.
I’m a massive introvert and would love to not have to rely on those social aspects of work, but they undeniably make me more effective at my job and make life easier in the long run. It’s no different than physical exercise or any of the million other things in life that might be a bit unpleasant but are ultimately good for you.
Well… no
As long as you don’t get fired, there’s no need to do any of these things, if you literally don’t care what happens at your job, then there’s no need to be effective or anything like that. You don’t need to be liked, you don’t need to care what your coworkers think, you just need to do enough work that it’s useful to employ you.
Fared
We’re social animals, socialization benefits us. WFH is better overall, but meeting up now and again has clear benefits.
Just commented here, and the anti-social folks seem to disagree, even though I’m mainly agreeing with them. Go figure.
The extraverts had the tables turned on them in 2020 and have been itchy for a captive audience ever since. It’s a drug fix for these people, nothing more. I’ve skipped every cross country in-person team building gibberish since 2020 and will continue to do so.
I like how indulging extrovertism is a drug fix, but indulging introvertism is just normal. Even though we’re scientifically social animals…
American work culture has always heavily favored extraverts to begin with. I feel really resentful because extraverts finally got a small taste of what it means to be forced to adjust to a workplace they’re uncomfortable with, and now they act like we all need to go into the office again to keep their needs met.
There’s never been any real consideration of introverts when it comes to office culture, other than to ridicule or minimize us when we express our needs. And btw I work a highly social job and interact with people all day long. I’m expected to adjust but extraverts aren’t.
This is like calling for straight pride month. Society is built for extroverts, and introverts have always had to put extroverts’ needs first. Now that introverts can work in a comfortable environment, suddenly, it’s an issue.
When I was in high school, I had a girl tell me I was her favorite person to work with, and for one simple reason: if she wanted to talk, I’d talk to her; and if she didn’t, I wouldn’t try to force her into a conversation.
It’s work, not a social call.
We are talking about a get together once or twice a year here. That is very much something that is not only beneficial for extroverts, but also most introverts. The extremities between these often get a bit absurd when discussing. Studies show the happiness level of introverts increasing after social gatherings as well.
Not saying it should happen daily or even weekly. But yearly? That should not be a problem for anyone.
I was talking specifically about PapaStevesy’s comment complaining about calling catering to extroverts a drug-fix and catering to introverts normal, and then going on to imply that introverts are unnatural (too heavy a word, but I can’t come up with a better one) because “we’re social animals.”
But as to the OP, I’m not here to argue against the idea that introverts enjoy social interaction. Because they do. It’s just mentally and emotionally exhausting to do. What I will argue against is the idea that you need to fulfill that social interaction with the people you work with, especially when it requires going to such lengths as a cross-country flight like in OP’s example, who clearly didn’t want to do this nor enjoyed a moment of the whole circus of the experience.
At that point, we’re not even talking extrovert vs. introvert.
As somebody who spent way too long working at a shitty job because I loved the people I worked with, there’s a reason that I never saw any of them outside of work apart from the one guy that I still play games with online. My life doesn’t revolve around work. That’s not what gives my life meaning. It’s simply what I have to do in order to be able to afford to live. I’m not saying be an asshole or don’t get along well with the people you work with, but I am saying that I’d rather spend my time with friends, family, and community. Expecting the people you work with, especially at a remote job, to be part of those 3 simply because you work with them is silly. And at that point, going through a once-yearly gathering is simply ritual, nothing more.
You’re moving goalposts here because we’re specifically talking about work and colleagues. Being an extrovert doesn’t imply you want to meet any effin person.
The problem is that some extroverts try to push their desire for face-to-face engagement onto others while trying to make introverts feel bad or ostracized for not wanting to. Obviously there are sane, reasonable people on both sides. Unfortunately, those that make the rules in the USA are typically neither sane nor reasonable.
Introverts: I don’t mind RTO as long as it’s on an “at will” basis
Extroverts: I want everyone to RTO
See how indulging one or the other isn’t the same?
The benefit is that there’s no practical benefit but they get mad when you point out that they’re just making you come in to sate either your busy body co-workers being terminally extraverted to the point where even just going to the bar after work doesn’t stroke them off hard enough, or to sate the middle manager’s wanting to squeeze you for in office metrics so the higher-ups stop asking what in the fuck the middle managers even contribute when the best the workers do is the time when it’s impossible for said middle managers to be metric squeezing them the entire day.
I think everyone just pretends to be honest. They’re a few fucking weirdos who enjoy waiting 5 extra hours for their delayed flight and having to rent a car to drive to some conference that could have been conducted virtually and all that other bullshit, but I’m fairly confident that most people would prefer NOT to do that and to simply wfh. Webcams are fine with me. I have friends. I have a wife. I have a family. I don’t need to see work people in real life. It literally adds zero benefit to my life. Also a lot of people suffer from chronic pain like back problems. Commutting and flying and sitting 8 hours a day in some piece of shit ergo chair from 1988 is literally torture for them. Work culture has no sympathy for disabled people. They can go get fucked. Work from home for life all you motherfuckers.
It depends a lot on the group of people, but sometimes introverts can prefer in person interactions. With online meetings, there’s usually one person in focus and that makes it harder to pop in and speak. With in person sessions, you can speak one on one.
It depends person to person, dynamics of the team, and the costs of meeting in person.
For example, this could be more true for younger team members who may not have a strong social network / a family at home
Yeah, I’ve met many people who literally have never spoken up in a meeting unless called upon… And then you meet them in person and they talk all the time.
Online dynamics are entirely different and it doesn’t work at all for some people.
But for most people it’s functional but much less so than in person. Humans were wired for in person interactions. Not just cropped compressed video of a persons face.
I’m the same way. I’m not anti-social, just picky with how I spend my time and with whom. I guess it’s more of a reflection on my job, but work people ain’t it – meaning I wouldn’t be friends with most of them outside of work. As I get older, I find that I increasingly put myself first and have less tolerance for bullshit lol.
Yea. Exactly. There have only been a handful of work colleagues who i actually wanted to be friends with. I’ve disliked or been indifferent talking to 95% of the people I’ve worked with.
I find personally it’s easier and more relaxed to hang out in person. But that’s with friends, so unless you’re on close terms with everyone that does seem like a big hassle.
I wonder though where you meet up, and what you do. I can totally see myself wanting to do a meetup like that if it’s somewhere fun, like a big city, and there’s some events planned out.
It helps with team building exercises that make you feel like a toddler.
I’m actually shocked to find how many people agree with the OPs sentiment, but maybe there’s something about the demographics of who’s using a FOSS Reddit alternative or something. I’m not saying everyone is wrong or has something wrong with them or whatever, but I entirely agree with people finding this valuable, so maybe I can answer the OPs question here.
I’ve been working remotely long since before the pandemic. I’ve worked remotely for multiple companies and in different environments. I am extremely introverted and arguably anti social. I tend to want to hang out with many of my friends online over in person. But that doesn’t mean I think there’s no advantage at all. To be honest, when I first started remote work, I thought the in person thing was total bullshit. After a few meetings my opinions drastically changed.
I’ve pushed (with other employees, of course) to get remote employees flown in at least a few times a year at multiple companies. There are vastly different social dynamics in person than over video. Honestly, I don’t understand how people feel otherwise, especially if they’ve experienced it. I’ve worked with many remote employees over the years and asked about this, and most people have agreed with me. Many of these people are also introverted.
I think one of the big things here is people harping on the “face” thing. Humans communicate in large part through body language - it’s not just faces. There’s also a lot of communication in microexpressions that aren’t always captured by compressed, badly lit video. So much of communication just isn’t captured in video.
Secondly, in my experience, online meetings are extremely transactional. You meet at the scheduled time, you talk about the thing, then you close the meeting and move on. In person, people slowly mosy over to meetings. And after the meeting ends, they tend to hang around a bit and chat. When you’re working in an office, you tend to grab lunch with people. Or bump into them by the kitchen. There’s a TON more socializing happening in person where you actually bump into other people and talk them as people and not just cogs in the machine to get your work done.
I find in person interactions drastically change my relationships with people. Some people come off entirely different online and it’s not until meeting them in person that I really feel like I know them. And then I understand their issues and blockers or miscommunications better and feel more understanding of their experiences.
Maybe things are different if you work jobs with less interdepencies or are more solo. I’ve always worked jobs that take a lot of cooperation between multiple different people in different roles. And those relationships are just way more functional with people I’ve met and have a real relationship with. And that comes from things that just don’t happen online.
Im honestly really curious how anyone could feel differently. The other comments just seem mad at being required to and stating the same stuff happens online, but it just doesn’t. I do wonder if maybe it has to do with being younger and entering the workplace more online or something. But I’ve worked with hundreds of remote employees and never heard a single one say the in person stuff to be useless. And I’ve heard many say exactly the opposite.
Totally agree. I’m on restricted duties at the moment so meet all of my clients on teams. I hate it. The audio is terrible so one or both of us is always mishearing, my desk is in front of a window so I have to keep my curtains closed for them to see me. I don’t get to build the same rapport with them and their responses to my questions are more stilted because of it. A large part of my job is judging body language and reading non-verbal cues, which is next to impossible on teams.
And on monday, my computer decided to do a mandatory, 3 hour update, so I missed an appointment and couldn’t access the client’s number to apologise or explain. So I had to text a colleague to run over to the client’s office let them know I wasn’t going to make it
Yep, well put. I love working remotely, but would appreciate once/twice a year having an off-site to get to know some people in the company on a more human level, or so I know who has a dog, so they can send me pics. As you said, during work hours it’s hard to get away from the transactional nature of the conversation.
The other thing I’m always worried about, is when grads join the company. A lot are coming from an environment where they’ve been interacting in person on a daily basis, and now their only interaction is online.
Are you a manager by any chance?
In your intro paragraph you say meetings. I think people who still think of meetings as being a worthwhile way to spend company time probably are demographically preoccupied with the alleged value of “in person”.
So what’s the benefit for me, letting the corporation employees and managers study my body language and micro facial expressions?
For me, it’s just a huge hassle getting to work, getting up earlier and paying for transport and lunch just to be there, for seemingly no reason that benefits myself at all.
So much time and energy wasted while also harming the environment.
I don’t plan to be at the same company more than a few years anyway.
The question and response you’re responding to aren’t about working in the office on a regular basis, just about the occasional in-person gathering. Your response comes across as complaints about working in the office daily.
I cannot imagine going back to an office job that isn’t WFH, but I agree strongly with the commenter here acknowledging the value of the occasional in-person socializing.
Even before 2020, I worked in a small remote office far from my thousands of coworkers at our corporate office. The relationships I was able to build spending 3-4 days at HQ every quarter or so greatly impacted my day-to-day work for the better. I have a specific example of someone I was having trouble working with for months, but after a single face-to-face interaction, for no reason I could name, we were suddenly great partners. She even left the company for a few years then came back a couple months ago and reached out to me, excited we’d get to work together again.
I don’t see value in working day-to-day in person. The company gets significantly more value from me by allowing me to work from home. But interstitial socializing of the occasional in-person event makes a significant difference in the relationships I have with my coworkers, which makes the team stronger and the work more enjoyable.
I’ve worked service jobs for 20 years and have been doing an office job from home for just over a year and even if I’m not an introvert, getting to choose who I see in person and who I don’t feels wonderful, but I’m also very good at socializing online so I guess I don’t feel the need to see my colleagues in person for this reason…
I think you’re missing the point a wee bit. No one (introverted or otherwise) is arguing against in-person socialising in general. They are arguing against forced in-person socialising with co-workers.
online meetings are extremely transactional
Exactly. You know what else is transactional? Jobs. The employer and employee exchange work for currency. Employees don’t owe their employer any meaningful relationships with their co-workers. I’m sure that means less efficient business. I also don’t give a flying fuck.
I felt like this a couple of years ago, then I went and changed both job and career. Suddenly I find myself actually enjoying what I do, as well as my colleagues.
A job is definitely transactional, but seeing as most of us spend 8h a day on them. I’d urge ya’ll to - if possible - try and find one where you can find some pride and value in what you do, other than the paycheck you receive.
It has improved all parts of my life in all honesty.
My suggestion is to find a job where you don’t have to work 8h a day or five days a week.
Sure. But regardless, I used to work as a teacher. 15 weeks of vacation yearly, great pay (for Sweden at least). Worked about 32h every week.
I’m much happier today with much less vacation, longer hours and a bit worse pay (though it’ll get much better with time). Because I actually like my job. And I get to work on skills that I have use for in my free time as well.
It does not have to be all about getting paid as much and working as little as possible. Finding a good employer and a career you like is also an option.
Further to that, I have found that in-person training sessions are much more effective than training over Teams/Zoom/Skype.
Not specifically because you are in the room with thr instructor, but rather because you are in the room with the other students.
The opportunity to chat casually with the others during breaks is often where much of the learning and deepening of understanding happens. You can learn about their different approaches to the same problems you have. You can discover that you share confusion about something the instructor had briefly touched on , which can lead to a deeper discussion in class.(far too often during online training nobody asks what they assume is not a common question)
You’re correct in that it’s a higher quality of getting to know people in person.
However, I don’t want to get to know anyone at my work because I hate the place and I can’t create a honest relationship with my coworkers because of that, if I’d be honest I’d likely be reported or whatever.
I want to spend more time with people I do care about, not more time with people I don’t care at all about.
Sliding off topic here, but I would seriously suggest you change jobs. Spending half of your waking time in an environment you hate is one way to die early. Life’s way too short for that!
I hate every job I’ve had so far and I don’t think that is going to change. Thanks for trying though.
have you had a job with a strong union or even outright as a co-operative? i figure the fundamental problem is that normal jobs are inherently exploitative and if you don’t have that bit it might become actually enjoyable
Why wouldn’t you be able to create relationships with your colleagues just because you hate your workplace? The worst places I’ve worked at, have had the absolute strongest relationships between the people working there. Because it’s basically been a necessity to survive the workday.
Your colleagues might hate it as much as you do. That can be something to find comfort in. And you’ll obviously never care about someone you don’t know. Perhaps you might actually start caring about a colleague or two, if you do get to know them.
Because I can’t seem to act the same remotely as I do in person. I have trouble reading the room and responding as expected.
Yep. In my review with my last boss, while transitioning to a new team, he noted that someone had said I should act more professionally. No idea what he meant! Never had such a thing said to me in decades of in-person work.
In person, we get a better feel for the emotions present. No getting around the fact that we evolved to be social animals. When the internet first became a thing, it was conventional wisdom that we were missing out on a lot of social cues by only communicating via text.
My company seems to have nailed it, so far. Mostly leaning on hiring local employees, but no mandate to come in. They can meet up, and that’s nice for many reasons. I’m starting to feel left out a bit, wanting to fly up there again, just hang out for a day or two, build relationships, learn about what people outside my team or working on or struggling with. Generally shoot the bullshit and make friends. Guess that’s passe now.
You sound like a Solarian
In The Naked Sun Isaac Asimov portrays a world focused on avoiding physical contact with other people. The Solarians interact with each other largely through technology. They live far from each other, spread out across a sparsely populated planet. People are taught from birth to avoid physical contact, and live on huge estates, either alone or with their spouse only. Face-to-face interaction (referred to in the book as “seeing”) is seen as a repugnant chore. Communication takes place through technology unknown of off their world: holography, 3-D television. Communicating with each other in this fashion is referred to as “viewing”, in contrast to “seeing”, which is face-to-face. Communication is frequent, but it is “viewing” of a transmitted image. 1
Go back to your caves of steel
We do this sometimes but just people who live near the city lol! I can’t imagine doing a meet up where you had to fly somewhere and my company sure as hell would never pay for it!
Seeing everyone in person can be kind of fun because we can have a real conversation that’s not being monitored… We mostly talk shit the whole time lol
look me in my same face you would see if we turned cameras on every once in a while?
Not the same as interpersonal interaction, misses much of the communication we evolved to express and understand.
OTOH, I’ve had a few Zoom-only relationships where we’re pretty tight, but that’s rare.
LOL, one of those is my Zoom rep. We email occasionally, trade pics and jokes. Every few months we Zoom and shoot the bullshit about our lives. She gets me the skinny on upcoming stuff, where my account’s at, what I might need or not need. Because we’re tight like that, she jumps when I need a thing, and in turn, I read all her correspondence carefully.
Another is a coworker, nearly my best friend at the company. When we finally met in person at a team meeting, we were tight. Boss was like, “Had you guys met before today?!”
Again, pretty rare relationships. Know who I’m really close to? The guy who lives here who I used to work in the office with. Man came to my wedding. None of those remote people did. When he needs my help, I jump.
And if anyone wants to poo-poo interpersonal work relationships, I will ask that person what they think of long-distance relationships. The conventional wisdom is that they don’t work out. (Yes, I know those are different. But how different and why? Think on that.)
Great post and question! Much food for thought as we navigate this new world.
Anyway, I had some thoughts earlier tonight, both pro and con.
I’m sure you have friends outside of work right?
That’s the part I never understand about people who connect working in office and with the fun of seeing others is person.
Why are you so willing to put up with commuting, office quality furniture, public restroom facilities, sick people who realllllly should have leverage optional work from home days or just regular old sick time… When you could just have more time for friends outside of the workplace.
I see my friends on weekends or they come over and we have game nights spending quality time with each other rather than infrequent unplanned interactions when we both should be doing something else.
My personal life friends are the people I “jump” for. Not coworkers. Having to “jump” for a coworker is and should be an inconvenience in the workplace because it means a failure of planning occurred somewhere. You can still have friendly camaraderie in the face of inconvenient circumstances but I don’t think you need to have some deep relationship to help out a colleague. That comes with the job to some extent.
When I’ve become friends with people from work, I invite them into my entirely separate personal life and in fact that is the case for one of my closest friends.
I just feel like If you wanna hang out with people from the office invite them to something outside of the office. The whole captive audience thing is such a demoralizing foundation to start a friendship with.
Honestly, our office has quality furniture and nice restrooms which are frequently cleaned and restocked throughout the day.
It seems like the difference in this thread is people that like their work vs people that hate it. It seems like the latter is in the majority.
Or people may like the technical side of their work but hate everything else.
I’ve seen people in technical roles that love to do technical design work, but they are middling at it because they don’t cross-learn from others nor do they choose to do the bare minimum in coordination before turning in a submission.
And we have written in the job description that the role includes cross-discipline coordination and direction of less knowledgeable staff, so it isn’t like it isn’t part of their job like they claim.
I like my work but I see my coworkers similar to the people I see on public transportation. Limited, friendly interaction when needed. Never consider your work colleagues as more than that. It’s creepy.
Depends on where you work. My colleagues are brilliant, I’ve made lifelong friends at my work place but then it’s quite a radical work environment so attracts interesting people. I’d be gutted if I couldn’t see them every week.
A “radical” work environment? What do you work for, the Red Army?
Not far off, it’s a worker co-op 😆
So why not hang out with them outside of the workplace?
Yep, I really enjoy my job too and I even work with some really good people but I keep my personal life… personal. It’s not like I hide my personality and life from my colleagues but I’ve got enough friends that I don’t feel like I need to add any more to my inner circle.
I don’t mean to say that the place can’t be nice but I would hope your home is of greater comfort than your workplace in most cases.
All of my adult friends I met at work. We all live hundred of km away from each other but go to our respective office 2 days a week. And on those days, we have lunch and drinks, they are my children godparents and we talk everyday. As a grown up if you move long distance, it is a lot harder to make friends and keep up with the older ones. You may not have a lot of time because of children especially is they are on the younger side. So your pool to get local mates becomes the school parents and work. It’s a lot easier to determine who you’d like to hang out with with people you spend 8 hours a day 5 days a week that the other mums you only see a few times a week as you all rush off your bicycle to drop you kid at school and have a very superficial relationship with.
All of my adult friends I met at work.
That’s crazy.
That’s not crazy. That’s life. Just shows how immature you are.
Or does it…?
Obviously some different life circumstances influence your options of making new friends as an adult. I can certainly understand your perspective there but perhaps it’s hard for me to relate since my significant other and I have no children nor do our friend and none of us desire to ever have them either.
I’m sure they consume a great deal of time and energy that probably drives a person to crave social experiences away from them. If work is the only place they can get away from them I can understand that too but hobbies can still be an option.
World feels overcrowded as it is. Getting a shit deal because so many others choose to have kids and then want to force people to spend time trapped in a box with them… It’s like a whole population of people having their cake and eating it too… Or whatever expression fits best here for an unfair, double-dipping advantage…
And actually now that I think of it, two of our friend group did have kids and we all drifted apart because they were no longer able to commit time and weekends like we did to each other.
They used to often say “we should all hang out again!” and such but then either we’re never available or had to leave early or host events at their place which required interacting with their kids and I gotta say toddlers are not skillful conversationalists.
I don’t have a solution for people with kids trying to find friends at work. I can understand why it might seem appealing to them but speaking from the other side, it feels like a burden I shouldn’t have to carry.
We like it
