- cross-posted to:
- confidently_incorrect@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- confidently_incorrect@lemmy.world
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That et al is the best scientist, they’re in all the papers.
And then everyone applauded..
But seriously if I witnessed this, I might actually applaud because that is a pretty badass bit of trivia to get to whip out.
I think I would rather this happen to me than just about anything professionally, the withdrawal from that high might actually kill me
et. al
I wouldn’t mess with her, she contains multitudes!
Fucking hive minds
Is tenforward leaking again?
We are Borg et al. Resistance is futile.
I am 7 of etc etc
That guy publishes a LOT.
Not as confrontational, but had a similar experience with a collaborator. Due to the PIs’ old habits, our collaboration meetings were telecons (telephone landlines, rather than zoom or other video conferencing). So at a conference, I see a poster from a member of the collaboration, having never seen the faces of many members, and go over to introduce myself. This other grad student was in poster presenter mode, so as I approach he immediately asks “So you are interested in [collaboration project], how much do you know about [project]” and I point to my name on the author’s list and say “well, I am that guy”.
I’ve been on both sides of that kind of interaction, though not in academia. I met my boss of six months for the first time like two weeks ago, tbh I’m not sure if I would recognize him (or anyone else on my “team” for that matter) if I saw him again right now.
Why’s she flexing about a paper that a white male couldn’t understand?
Also science is full of arrogant people, both males and females.
Also science is full of arrogant people, both males and females.
Not really.
Okay, in my experience, as a recent PhD working in a science-related field, the scientific community is a comfortable place for people with superiority complex and for blatant fascists of all kinds.
in my experience,
yeah, that’s the issue. anecdotal evidence.
Kinda 🤷🏼♂️. It’s some kind of social platform (i.e. shit talk) where people talk and not a peer review q1 journal.
Still a good basis for null hypothesis
Titles will do that. Even the self imposed, like ‘musician’. The music scene is filled to the brim with undeserved self importance.
It makes sense that the science community is the same way.
Why’s she flexing about a paper that a white male couldn’t understand?
???
She wrote a book. Then the arrogant white male read it. And referenced it while arguing with her, quoting the book. How he would argue with her if he did understand the book correctly
No, like, I get that he evidently didn’t understand it, but I find your question strange as it presupposes that she is “flexing” about a paper rather than complaining about how presumptuous some of her fellows can be.
My friend, a girl, was having trouble loading a large pumpkin into the back of her subaru hatchback. I, a boy, offered to help, but she refused.
After 5 minutes of this her strained whimpering became too much to bear. So I put the pumpkin in there for her.
Clearly the race and genre are both only being used in this sentence for bullying purposes. What could very well be just “a random guy” was specifically changed to “a white male” to really attack the race and genre mentioned. If it was another race or genre it would be called racist. The “white males” won’t accept this blatant racism many more years without standing up against it, trust me. But then they will be called racist. They are not racist only while they accept being bullied and accept racism towards them. This hate speech against white males is being completely normalized in america daily. And being used in comments, sentences and now even books in such a “normalized” way that it disgusts me. Just because whites are not a minority, doesn’t mean we can bully and be racist to them. And in this exact sentence, it triggers me so much that the “while male” adjective was used with the clear intent of bullying and image degradation of the mentioned race and genre.
When will we, as humans of all colors, stand up against racism against whites (and especially males) that is strangely being more and more accepted as a normal thing daily?
When will we, as humans of all colors, stand up against racism against whites (and especially males) that is strangely being more and more accepted as a normal thing daily?
You get 0 ‘progressive points’ for standing up for white males. One of the last socially acceptable punching bags. Look at the proliferation of the ‘dumb dad’ on sitcoms, totally acceptable.
If you don’t see that many white men have been so privileged for so long that they act entitled to be shitty towards others (including to other white men) than you must be seriously delusional
The “white males” won’t accept this blatant racism many more years without standing up against it, trust me.
Ten years. Whiteness as a systemically-perpetuated social construct has only been getting consciously pushed back on for ten years now; and you’re already QQ’ing like you’re facing genocide and dispossession of ‘your’ lands(the same ones you committed 400 years of genocide, slavery, exploitation, dehumanization, and displacement to get). My bloodline has endured 400 years of tyranny perpetuated by bloodlines like yours, and all your little friends; and yet you collectively still draw breath.
I promise you, even if your whole internet-tough-guy, “we will not tolerate this” schtick like you’ve gotten anything more than a metaphorical papercut compared to the manifold atrocities you’ve visited upon the world actually came to pass? You’d still just be proving us right. To you, our freedom, our liberation, looks like a bullet; and you fear that what we would do is the same barbarism you would.
Funny, but what does the skin color have to do with the situation?
When a given demographic is a dominant presence in a given area (not necessarily work, it can be anything), there is a tendency for they demographic to start making assumptions about other demographics.
In most places, men are the dominant presence, and in most of the “western” world, they will also be white.
In this case, the individual who a white male was doing what’s called colloquially, “mansplaining”. He was correcting a woman when not only was the woman right, but was the very source he was using to correct her.
This is a consistent and very unpleasant fact of the world that white men will treat anyone of any other demographic as less than equals.
In this specific case, I suspect that the person making that post was pointing to the prejudice and stupidity of the person indirectly insulting her being a systemic issue arising from both gender and sexual entrenchment along with the privilege that allows the dominance of the white male demographic despite their being no quantifiable factor for that group to be dominant other than that privilege.
She, in other words, was pointing out a systemic issue by using an anecdote. Which can be a bit difficult to accept as evidence. Or would be if there wasn’t a good century or so of giant piles of anecdotes from real people pointing to that systemic issue not only existing, but being something that holds everyone back.
Truth? Yes, women and people of color are going to assume they’re right and whoever they’re talking to is wrong just like any humans will. But white dudes have been pulling that crap for multiple generations, and anyone that isn’t both white and male get sick of the bad behavior.
I still don’t see why adding the skin color was important, but eh, I have other things to deal with, so I don’t really care, just found it slightly annoying.
Because the 'splaining phenomenon is about perceived but unearned superiority which leads the 'splainer to 'splain to someone who knows a great deal more than they do and, crucially, someone who the 'splainer ought to realise knows more than they do but doesn’t because of the illusion created by the society they live in.
I’d have added “(born) middle-class” because that’s an important part of it too.
Gender not important also, loads of women “mansplain”, it’s a problem with attitude, not gender or race
Yep, I hate that word as well, but didn’t have the energy to post about it…
Bravo
If the post said “a Black trans women interrupted me”, would that be also fine, in your eyes?
It would surprise me, but it would still be fine.
How many black trans women are in positions of authority? To not remark on that would be unusual. Mind you, the chances of a black trans woman making it to that kind of position and holding on to the kind of stupidity in the original post is pretty damn slim, hence the surprise.
Are Black trans women known for this kind of behaviour? Are there apologists for Black trans women who make every effort to miss the fucking point that there are people who think this isn’t a thing that happens?
Are Black trans women known for this kind of behaviour?
The question suggests that Black trans women are all alike. It’s exactly that kind of generalization that’s being criticized.
Nobody is saying all white men are like this, what they are saying that it is only white men who do this.
Being a white man who is aware of the stereotype, I in no way feel attacked by it. I do feel aware that I need to be careful not to interrupt my colleagues or to mansplain things that I may be less knowledgeable about. This response from me is beneficial to both myself and the people I interact with.
“Only white men do X” is absolutely racist and sexist. “Mansplain” is derogatory.
“Mansplain” is derogatory.
I agree that it is derogatory to mansplain to someone, like to tell an expert in a subject that they don’t know what they’re talking about and thinking that’s okay because they are a woman.
Are there apologists for Black trans women who make every effort to miss the fucking point
Oh, don’t blame people. Don’t bring irrelevant details if you don’t want to distract them from the fucking point.
Nonody is “known” for that behaviour. You really just seem to ascribe personality traits to people based on their skin color. I thought we were long past that.
It is intentionally, intellectually dishonest and obtuse to pretend that condemnation of systemic problems resulting from unfair biases for/from certain demographics is as bad as the systemic problems in question.
Is that dog coming when you whistle?
This is a consistent and very unpleasant fact of the world that white men will treat anyone of any other demographic as less than equals.
Citation needed.
In all seriousness, I understand your point and respect you for trying to deconstruct the mechanics of privilege.
But I just factually disagree with your assertion. I would argue that every human being has an inherent preference for people that they perceive as similar to themselves in some way, and this can result in bias along racial or gender lines. However, this arguably applies less to white men than any other demographic, because such behavior is so consistently condemned and shamed when exhibited by white men (even without being exhibited sometimes).
In contrast, people of other demographics are less frequently made aware of their own biases, because calling it out has not been construed as some kind of ethical imperative, as it has with white men.
It’s also well documented that women have a much stronger in-group bias compared to men.
In essence, women can be characterized as “If I am good and I am female, females are good,” whereas men can be characterized as “Even if I am good and I am male, men are not necessarily good.” This sex difference in cognitive balance suggests that a mechanism that promotes female preference in women does not similarly contribute to male preference for men.
https://rutgerssocialcognitionlab.weebly.com/uploads/1/3/9/7/13979590/rudmangoodwin2004jpsp.pdf
Your barely-in-context paper is not support for your main argument :
However, this arguably applies less to white men than any other demographic, because such behavior is so consistently condemned and shamed when exhibited by white men.
Do you have any citations that actually support your claim? Because it sound like vibes “please don’t say mean things about my group” bullshit.
That’s not my main argument, it’s merely a supporting clause.
OP asserted that
white men will treat anyone of any other demographic as less than equals.
I countered that by pointing out that it’s obvious that any human being tends to prefer people who they consider similar to themselves. That’s my main argument.
And if that is true, than attempting to frame such behavior as particular to white men is just silly and unproductive.
I obviously can’t definitively measure the amount of social stigma around white male prejudice, but I don’t need to. I’m not saying that white men are definitely less biased than other demographics, I’m merely pointing out that it’s a distinct possibility, even as you all indicate that they are the demographic most deserving of condemnation for such behavior.
Now, one could make the argument that even though white men may not be especially biased, the effects of their bias may have greater impacts on other demographics due to the disproportionate amount of power they collectively wield. I think that’s a fair point, but it doesn’t really hold any ethical implications, it’s simply a description of a material reality.
If this is your main argument then:
…it’s obvious that any human being tends to prefer people who they consider similar to themselves.
Doesn’t your paper you linked imply it isn’t so obvious? I still stand by that it’s not really relevant so I’ll just say that I fully disagree with your argument or the implication that you have somehow proven anything.
I’ll just repeat something I said in another comment:
It is intentionally, intellectually dishonest and obtuse to pretend that condemnation of systemic problems resulting from unfair biases for/from certain demographics is as bad as the systemic problems in question.
You just pretend you are unaware of massive swaths of history in order to act offended that anyone would make generic statements about an infamously problematic demographic. And you falsely equate any attempt to talk generically about the problematic behaviour to the same issue, as a transparent tactic to suppress discussion of the problematic behaviour entirely.
I’m sure you will have some bullshit response that will annoy me again but I’m gunna try to let it go because I find talking to you unpleasant.
Doesn’t your paper you linked imply it isn’t so obvious?
Yeah sure, in the absence of any other data.
If you refuse to acknowledge that people like people similar to themselves, you’re not being honest with yourself, let alone me.
What is the systemic problem/problematic behavior that you are trying to solve? You clearly believe that white men are especially discriminatory towards other groups, which isn’t crazy, although I disagree. But are you so naive to think that if we replaced the powerful white men with powerful hispanic women (or any other combination of race and gender), racial and gender-based discrimination would suddenly end? I’m just pointing out the inconvenient truth that the system would still be biased and unfair, just with different winners and losers.
In my view, the fact that some white men are biased for or against certain groups is completely insignificant and irrelevant to solving the problems that society faces today. It’s the fundamental structure of the economic and political system that naturally results in the few individuals at the top of the hierarchy expressing a large degree of control and domination over the rest of the society.
The idea that humans are inherently predisposed to subjugate those different from themselves is a fascist belief that fascists say to justify fascism. So… Not a fan of that line of thought, thanks
Normally, I only comment when i have something to add, but I just want to commend you for your high quality contribution to this sensitive topic.
Really learning a lot from this. Your arguments are solid and your phrasing is respectful. Thank you!
That’s really nice to hear. Your comment did add something, at least for me!
Personally I believe that large parts of this discussion and topic are simply human nature.
Any group with power, will seek to keep that power, and to increase their standing over the other people. If history had played out differently and asian or black people were the historical in-group we would have the exact same situations and issues as we have today. Only another enemy.
I agree. People tend to ascribe inherent traits to other groups, when in fact observed behaviors can usually be traced not to inherent dispositions, but to specific environmental conditions that incentivize said behaviors.
For instance, a white man in our current social environment who exhibits a confident, assertive attitude is well situated to succeed. White men are expected to be competent and often rewarded for appearing competent, so they sometimes attempt to exaggerate their competence in order to meet the perceived expectations.
This is news to me because I have been condescended to exponentially more as a decently passing white trans woman by cis white men in particular than I ever was before transition by ANYONE. Worst I ever got from black men was one calling me a “pretty thing” riding past on his bike. White men are getting the most push back as of late because they have historically been the worst offenders. And that hasn’t changed yet. That doesn’t mean the rest of us are free of guilt, but there is a very obvious frontrunner when it comes to unearned perceived self superiority, conscious or not.
I’m sorry that happened to you.
However, your anecdotal experience is just that. I have been subject to exponentially more racist abuse from black individuals than from individuals of any other race. Does that indicate to you that we should be “pushing back” against black racists? Obviously not, because my personal experience is not enough to draw any conclusions about society as a whole.
In fact, you’re condescending me right now. You’re implying that your personal judgment supercedes my rational argument. I provide sources and construct an argument, and you respond “this is news to me” (condescending and dismissing my argument) and proceed to explain that what I’m saying can’t possibly be true, because it contradicts your personal viewpoint.
Privilege is writing off your own privilege as inherent in nature and then pointing at other groups of people going “but they’re allowed it’s not fair!!!”
When a given demographic is a dominant presence in a given area (not necessarily work, it can be anything), there is a tendency for they demographic to start making assumptions about other demographics.
Isn’t she the one making assumptions, though? Specifically, the “prejudice and stupidity of the person indirectly insulting her” part? I mean, is that really the only possible explanation?
What other reason would you suggest as to why he would assume that he knows more than her or that she couldn’t be the person that he’s referring to? Clearly he didn’t even know her name yet so what did he have to go by to draw those conclusions? It obviously wasn’t her lack of knowledge on the subject that they were discussing now was it?
Clearly he knew her name, though. He just didn’t know the woman he was speaking to was the woman whose work he was recommending.
And he made that assumption based on? Because, again, we know for a fact she didn’t sound ignorant on the topic.
By calling out dominant race they imply that those silent on race are talking about a minority
Only if you ignore reality.
This is a consistent and very unpleasant fact of the world that white men will treat anyone of any other demographic as less than equals.
Pls stop generalizing this bad behavior upon all white men. It only serves to further the divide, and is completely unfair and uncalled for against those in the demographic who don’t subscribe to those beliefs or patterns of behavior.
I’m not sure if that was your intent, that’s just how it comes across and it makes it hard not to completely write off your argument/viewpoints for being unable to respect your neighbor.
I’m a white man. I can absolutely generalize about a well known aspect of reality. It isn’t in question that white men are currently in a position of overall privilege, and that as a group that position of privilege has the effect stated.
I pretty much also said that this is true in the western world where white men are the supposed majority. I said that the same would be the case with any dominant group because humans are just like that.
A generalization can not only be true in general, but it doesn’t inherently mean that the entire group is at fault (beyond any unintentional benefits from the situation, which is what’s called privilege in current discourse on matters of gender and race in specific, but applies to more than those alone).
Here’s the thing. Until and unless we, not just as white men (speaking of the group I’m in) work on calling out and correcting bad behaviors as a group, to the point that it ceases to be a problem for others, we are part of the problem, no matter how little any individual likes that.
Divisions currently exist. They will always exist because any time there is a place of authority/power, there will be those that seek it and use it. Over time, you might see a given demographic shift in and out of that place of power, but it won’t change humans being humans; there will be abuse of power.
That’s the real key. The fact that white men have held dominance over most of the world for centuries (for a given value of most, and a given value of white) is simply fact. One could argue that the position of dominance really covers all the world since anyone wanting to disrupt that has to contend against that hierarchy. There are definitely places where, within a region* white men aren’t the dominant group, kinda impossible to be otherwise. But trying to pretend that the world isn’t the way it is is just silly.
Completely agree with your points. But also hope you can see it may be more fruitful to appear as though you’re ready to attack the problem, rather than your fellow man.
I say this because I didn’t read this as an outright attack or denigration of your fellow man, but I very much fear how easily any other man may interpret it and how it could serve to further the divide and make the problem even harder to address. That is my chief concern.
I appreciate you taking the time to clarify your position fellow internet stranger <3
rather than your fellow man.
Imagine thinking anyone who actually has skin in the game is going to look at genocidal oppressors as “their fellow man” fucking lmao. Clown world kumbaya shit that will only end with the settler empire standing over unending hectares of the bodies of subjects-of-empire who got backstabbed and throat-slit by the settlers; while they still hold the knife.
As long as the knife is still six inches in our back, it doesn’t matter that the settlers planted it twelve, and “graciously” drew it back six; the settlers haven’t done shit worth being regarded as “fellow man”. Really, haven’t done shit in general other than harm us.
I think the generalization isn’t really about white men per se, but about the demographic in power. Give a group unchecked power long enough and they forget how that came to be. I agree that it’s not a rule, and maybe should be expressed as more of a heuristic: if you are speaking to someone that is in power, and you don’t look like them, they might think you are not empowered.
Don’t let the lack of nuance in that statement take away from all the very valid points being made. The plight is real, and hopefully the white men who are enlightened enough to not confuse circumstance with natural order will read and know to not take it personally.
Thank you for the civil discussion.
Completely agree about unchecked power and your interpretation of it as a heuristic rather than an ambiguously defined trait.
I most certainly realize the plight is real and wish it never was like I’d hope all of us can say. But the lack of nuance struck me as dangerous. I understand how disenfranchised men will interpret things, and when people willfully neglect the opportunity to be concise it leaves a worrying amount of room for misinterpretation and effectively is ragebait that can serve to further entrench a misguided incel or the like into their toxic niche.
And for anyone who thinks I’m overreacting: see how Reddit powermod awkward_the_turtle intentionally acted to provoke men, then wrote off everyone who took issue with it as inherently being member of the ideology they were allegedly targeting. Reddit, the company, enabled and encouraged this mod and their collaborators to attack users on their platform indiscriminately.
If Lemmy is to serve as only a new platform for abuse, then it deserves to die with the rest of social media. Please, do not let it come to this. Discuss and debate civilly.
It’s a reminder than people that have always been in a privileged position often don’t realize they do.
What privilege applies here?
Being white is a huge risk factor for unearned confidence. So is male. Being both just multiplies the chances.
Wow! This is like saying that is someone owns an axe, they are more likely to be a serial killer. If they also have rolls of black garbage bags, then its even more likely …
That’s such a straw man. You would have no trouble saying that if someone doesn’t have an axe they are less likely to be an axe murderer
Sorry - what do you mean?
The fact that someone owns an axe and garbage bags, does nothing to their likelihood of them being a murder, just like being white and/or a male has nothing to do with the “risk of unearned confidence”.
It is just mentioned. Just a description of what happened. What’s wrong about saying it was a white male when it was a white male? Why jump to the opinion that mentioning the gender or complexion has any other purpose than being descriptive?
What’s wrong about just mentioning it was a post doc asking the question?
Good god, no
To emphasize the privilege this guy has.
Exactly.
Did you drop a /s? This is a funny meme, so I’m assuming I just missed a joke.
Right?
(Speaking as a white male, white male entitlement, and privilege for that matter, are incredibly relevant to white men being sexist/racist.)
(You can trust me on this because I’m a white male. Also, I’m used to my opinion being listened to, so I expect you to as well. Just FYI.)
Nope, I wasn’t sarcastic, I was slightly annoyed, annoyed enough to make rhe comment but not to maje a huge deal about it.
Or even the gender?
Male and Female aren’t genders, they’re Sex, Words used to describe biological makeup of a living creature, for example XX Chromosomes are Female, XY Chromosomes are Male, but there are also instances where XXY Chromosomes can happen, and things get a little tricky.
Gender is what we use to tell children how to behave based on their genetalia and cause dysphoria in them when they don’t want to do something but will get ostracized for doing what people with the other genetalia do.
There’s a lot more to sex than chromosomes. It’s probably better to say it’s clustering of positions on bimodal curves of traits. And even then you wind up with weird shit because biology really doesn’t like simple classifications. Like seriously there are so fucking many ways to be intersex and intersex people are downright common.
But also grammatically male and female when used to refer to humans are generally just the adjectives for man and woman.
You know when the right looks at the left and calls us batshit? Your comment is shit they point to…
What’s batshit about it? As a society we do exactly that, we tell boys to like blue and girls to like pink.
Thanks. Its a bit confusing to me especially as a none English user. But your description of gender sounds negative. I assume a gender can be a neutral description of oneself? I am not sure.
My point here though is, that OP mentioning it was a male, is as irrelevant as their skin color. I dont see why it needs to be there when they dont add other irrelevant characteristics such as nationality, age, hair color etc.
I would encourage you to do your own research regarding sex and gender. In many parts of the world, these terms are interchangeable. As they were in the US for many years, even after the term gender was popularized.
It’s an American thing.
All you losers acting like you dont understand why the fact it was a white male that was being the ignorant self righteous asshole just shows you aren’t actually serious with engaging with material realities.
You should all really look up what MLK Jr has to say about you white moderates and make an effort to remind yourself people like MLK Jr and Malcolm X think you’re literally worse than white supremacists.
It’s an American reality. Race still influences much of American life.
It’s an American obsession.
Are you just going to pretend that there is no racism anywhere else? It was the Europeans that colonised half the planet and invented the concept of “whiteness”, and proceeded to divide and carve Africa up. Are you just going to pretend that this action has had no influence on modern European ideas around race and class? And I haven’t even mentioned the Roma people. Or the ongoing genocide in Palestine, which has a racial component. Or the rise of Hinduistic fascism in India. Or the issues around race in my own country in South Africa. Racism is a global issue.
You’re right, racism doesn’t exist outside of America
Also the gender?
It’s not obvious? Because white males as a demographic are the most privileged people on the planet and not coincidentally also the ones most prone to petty, oblivious arrogance, tantrum-throwing, and egotistical man-splaining. The latter was demonstrated by the one in this NASA scientist’s anecdote.
This robs people of their individual context. The UK Prime Ministers wife is Indian and astonishingly privileged. You are suggesting a poor mine worker from Romania is somehow more privileged based on how he looks.
Lumping people into loose categories (particularly based on skin colour) and then prescribing loose values to them is fascist and racist.
Not the “I know of this one poc that’s in a position of power and so white privilege doesn’t exist” argument lol
youre deliberately misinterpreting the concept of intersectionality, it includes class.
I’m not deliberately mistinterpreting anything, if I don’t understand something, then explain it to me.
Incredibly privileged of you to assume everyone else has your spoilt middle class educational background
You’re posting to a niche reddit-clone that you only could’ve reliably found out about through either reddit, twitter, or mastodon. You have access to Google, you disingenuous twit.
Not relevant, it’s not my job to Google your arguments that I don’t know exist. If you wish to correct me on something, please do!
LOOK IT THE FUCK UP WHEN YOU’RE CALLED ON FUNDAMENTALLY MISUNDERSTANDING SOMETHING RATHER THAN BEING A REDDITOR PEDANT, JESUS FUCKING CHRIST DO YOU NEED TYING YOUR SHOES EXPLAINED TO YOU THE SAME WAY???
Y’know what, since I can’t even trust you to do that right at this point, have a link for it! https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=intersectionalism
if I don’t understand something, then explain it to me.
ok so you have deliberately removed as many brain cells as possible from your brain, understood
Do you really think that you know all there is to know? Perhaps I know something that you don’t, but you don’t know what it is. What then?
Incredibly privileged of you to assume everyone else has your spoilt middle class educational background
uhm, actually, it is in fact YOU who is the privileged one in this scenario, no I. check, and furthermore, mate
This robs people of their individual context.
Is the context not that in STEM women often face sexism?
I honestly have to pretend that sexism in STEM is nowhere near as bad as I know it is for the sake of my own mental health. I’ve heard incredible stories of blatant sexism from colleagues and friends that I just can’t fathom
I’ve had to defend a close friend from repeated advances and touching, she was an engineer, he was 40 years older than her. It’s a problem. I’ve had good friends get taken advantage of by a PI. Gross. It’s the power dynamic in academia too where one person controls the career outcome of the PhD student. It’s really nuts out there. It’s getting better but that takes time and awareness. I’ve seen what the bad eggs do and they disgust me. It’s not just men, but there are a lot of cases of it.
Address what I said, not something else
Is the individual context not that in STEM women often face sexism, not something else?
Do you think that the Prime Ministers wife is less privileged than the Romanian miner? How would you address the discrepancy with the group prescription?
Do you think STEM women don’t face sexism? Address what I said, not something else.
No, no one thinks that, because part of the context there is that one of the people is married to a head of state, and one is a coal miner
You aren’t misunderstanding anything here, loser, and we aren’t dumb enough to fall for it
Lmao guck off you debate pervert
You don’t get to say a bunch of dumb shit then pose one thought terminating question to try to pigeonhole somebody into saying you’re technically not wrong on this one thing (even though you are) and refusing to engage with the dozens of people whonare explaining to you why you’re wrong about pretty much everything.
I have no issue being wrong, and I haven’t refused to engage with anyone on anything, and no one has explained anything that I haven’t addressed so thats a lie. Unlike a teenage edgelord, I’m willing to accept that I don’t know everything and I’m open to learning something. But when people start rattling off that certain groups of people are superior or inferior to justify the scapegoating of their problems because they came to that conclusion after watching other people do it, it merits further clarification.
Then just be wrong and shut the fuck up and stop insisting you aren’t wrong when 20 other people are showing you way more patience than you deserve in explaining the myriad of reas9ns you’re wrong.
You are suggesting a poor mine worker from Romania is somehow more privileged based on how he looks.
You misunderstand the concept of privilege. It’s not linear. Intersectionality was devised to solve this exact contradiction.
Expand?
For example, just because a queer person is white does not mean they experience the same privilege as a cis het white person
Or how all women are oppressed, but the tribulations of white women are Not the same as those facing women of color or trans women, they face more and more varied forms of discrimination, but it doesn’t mean that one is more important or valid than others, just materially different for example
That poor mine worker is still in a better position than an otherwise identical minority would be in the same position.
A poor mine worker is in a tough place but at least he wasn’t refused that job because the company doesn’t hire non white people.
This exporting US culture shit has got to stop
We aren’t talking about another mine worker. We are comparing 2 individuals with certain characteristics. You have instead decided to compare a third individual because the initial comparison made the concept break down
Just because someone is a certain color does not prescribe to them any specific value judgement. As soon as you do that, one of those categories becomes the ongoing scapegoat for everyone’s problems, and it becomes fascist.
Does it ever occur to you that for your arguments to make sense you have to strip it of all context, historical perspecrive or material reality.
Intersectionality is the idea that various forms of privilege and circumstance interact with each other to make an individual. Certain influences are more impactful upon a particular person’s circumstances, and thus influence privilege to a much greater extent. The non-linear nature that DinosaurThussy is talking about can better be shown with examples.
If you’re homeless and white it’s clear that you’re in a worse off situation than a billionaire who is black. Class status has a far greater influence on this situation. It would be fair to say that the black billionaire has more privilege due to his class status but not his ethnic identity. That being said, it’s unlikely that the white man was denied a job due to his race in a way a homeless black person may be. Being poor and white and poor and black have many commonalities, but intersectional analysis allows us to understand the different ways and avenues that particular characteristics influences the ways that a person may end up in a particular circumstance.
The idea continues on. A person who is a billionaire may be significantly shielded from a lot of racism, or face it in a less extreme way. For example, that proverbial black billionaire likely wouldn’t have many run ins with racist cops in impoverished neighborhoods. However, he still might face the unifying characteristic of being called a slur by his peers in the way that a poor black person might. His privilege of wealth may not complete inoculate him facing racism at all, even if he faces it in a less extreme way.
In essence, this situation is viewing individuals dialectic-ly. It seeks to understand how all of a person’s identity and circumstances relate to the struggles and oppression certain groups or people may face in society.
I empathise with most of this and thank you for bothering to respond without resorting to 4chan energy.
The problem that remains unresolved is the refusal of some people to acknowledge that, like in science, observation is not without cost. What ends up happening is the observation of these trends then causes casualties of blame - in your example we could say the huge population of white people who dont fundamentally see black people in any light other than equal. An insult based on a black billionaire being a greedy billionaire gets called racially charged, when actually, it’s entirely class based. This reliably means that (for example) white working class boys/girls are left to rot.
Personally I see most of these prejudicial issues being an exclusively American problem that has been exported abroad, to the extent now that its difficult to untangle.
You are correct, but you can’t discuss on a rational level with people from hexbear, just give up.
Prejudice being exclusively a domain of America is a crazy hot take
Personally I see most of these prejudicial issues being an exclusively American problem that has been exported abroad
Have you forgotten who colonised most of the world, including America? This is in no way an American centric issue. Racism exists in most countries on earth.
This is what happens when you view the world through liberal idealism instead of doing any material analysis whatsoever
Systems aren’t real, they’re just imaginary, they can’t hurt you, there’s no such thing as systemic oppression just a few bad apples
Lmfao shut up
lemmy.zip
I don’t know what that is supposed to mean…
I expect ignorance from your and other such instances
Yet you offer no reason for doing so…
I feel like the incomplete explanation should have been more than you expected in the first place
I get and accept that you may dislike me based on my comments in this thread, I am more confused as to what the lemmy.zip instance has done to dismiss it outright.
It happens to be an instance federated with several idealogy-heavy instances, while itself being a general use instance with simple account creation procedures.
It makes it a popular choice for people who want to make multiple accounts for trolling, as well as people who have unpopular (as far as lemmy goes) ideologies. You can hopefully understand the kind of friction that could create and the reputation is the outcome.
You probably could have figured this out yourself if you just… Looked around. You shouldn’t expect people who are in disagreement with you to explain everything.
Because everybody makes the same shitty comments and it’s almost more tiring than anything.
If you so graciuosly “accept that we may dislike you” why can’t you understand we wouldn’t like people like you especially when it’s always the same tired bullshit from people like you.
They dont have to you assholes wont stop offering up reasons.
Seriously look at the comments there’s damn near 100% overlap with the people bitching about how this is unfair to old white dudes and people with lemmy.something for a username
I really couldn’t have asked for a better demonstration lmao
They seem pretty God damn determined to prove they’re exactly as disingenuous and intentionally ignorant as possible.
Lot of MLKs Whote Moderates in here.
lol. There is no point in bickering further now that you have started with the insults and ascribed me views that I do not hold, I am not the terrible person you think of, and I will not stoop down to your level and fling insults at you.
So instead I am just going to wish you a pleasant weekend and hope you realize that not everything is as you believe it to be, much less so on the internet.
There never was any fucking point I really dont know why I even bother waste my fucking time trying to talk to you dumbshit liberals who are more concerned with tone policing than acknowledging that racism and sexism exist.
In the US it’s all about skin colour
You can’t be racist against white, duh
The @lemmy.liberals in the comments here being flabbergasted that straight white men in positions of power are privileged and embarrassing is very funny
Keep it up dorks
Image failing to load here :/
…later that evening, that’s when this poor wounded white male post doc subscribed to the Ben Shapiro podcast.
God damn crackers
Wow, so she managed to clone herself and use the clones to write a paper?
Multiple clones. Otherwise the paper would be McCarty & McCarty.
Why is ‘race’ relevant here? What the fuck is wrong with Americans and how did they become so astonishingly self flagellating.
That said… this sounds like one of those fantasy scenarios where “then everyone clapped”.
Just on the insecure posture of this tweet, I’m prepared to bet cold hard cash that he asked her for clarity or something with a informational challenge “but does x not come from y?” Or whatever and she manufactured his reasoning and the rest to feel good. She doesn’t seem to know what et al means either.
While I perfectly agree with your position on that the “privilege” talk has become a weapon in and of itself, and that a lot of bullshit stories come out of it, I’d love it if you could change the tone of conversation.
Americans are different, and they may have cultural reasons to behaving this way. That’s not to say they’re right - but seeding anger this way is not gonna magically change their minds.
This is a reasonable request
I’m glad we have a common ground here
Hope it didn’t turn out mean on my part - I just want to keep this place nice :)
This is top some top tier mansplaining here. I detect no sense of irony. Chef’s kiss.
I agree that the usage of “white” is irrelevant here. That being said, are you in academics? It is not an unusual situation for people to not be aware of the “face behind the maths” so to speak. Granted, this is not entirely unique to women in science but it is exhaustingly common for women to be questioned more than their peers.
I think questioning this is fine as many people lie but I wouldn’t take this to mean this type of situation didn’t happen/couldn’t happen.
I recognise that, I think it’s important to make very clear distinctions with no sweeping statements when prescribing value to demographic groups.
They’re mentioning the race and gender basically to say “a privileged person”. Having privileges obviously influences your character. And race+gender correlate with privileges.
So, while there’s no direct causation, and us white males who aren’t chumps don’t need to be offended, it’s often good enough of an explanation why a particular white male might be a chump.
It comes from an assumption that a person behaves that way because he’s a white male, and proliferates the assumptions that white males are normally behaving like that.
Should there be a black woman asking the question, this wouldn’t be mentioned, even though the act would be the same. As such, this is a vicious cycle of highlighting bad behavior in white males and then saying “look, they are like that” - something that’s been done in the past to justify racism and sexism towards black people and females.
lemmy.today
reason: Nuke
what does this mean?
Removing things for their comfort but not having spiritual fortitude enough to cop to why they’re removing it. tl;dr revealing how the sausage is made. They’ve at least got it up enough to casually admit to believing it’s possible to be ‘racist’ against the dominant oppressor; but that def doesn’t explain anything else…
I’m also seeing them remove stuff worth removing, and most of my comments are still up, to give credit where it’s due
Same kind of “even-handedness” Reddit deployed to get rid of CTH when the outcry against TD got too hot afaic. You’re more charitable than me.
Feeemales
oh now your other comment makes sense, you think “reverse racism” is real and you don’t like people calling you out on complete bullshit like “Should there be a black woman asking the question, this wouldn’t be mentioned”. fuck you, your performative respectability games, and your shithead nazi kin.
Why is ‘race’ relevant here?
Because it’s extremely relevant in American culture. Every culture really, we’re just somewhat ahead on not lying to ourselves about it.
What the fuck is wrong with Americans and how did they become so astonishingly self flagellating.
Nothing and we’re not, you’re an irate ignoramus with a chip on your shoulder having an imaginary dick measuring contest because you’re super duper sensitive about race.
Just on the insecure posture of this tweet, I’m prepared to bet cold hard cash that he asked her for clarity or something with a informational challenge “but does x not come from y?” Or whatever and she manufactured his reasoning and the rest to feel good. She doesn’t seem to know what et al means either.
He was literally telling her to go read her own work. The “et al” part is very fucking clearly taking the piss, do they not have humor over there in Stuckupistan? Or are your panties always in too much of a twist about basic ass descriptors to have any kind of humor about literally anything?
“Because of the sheer scale of the issue and long history of institutionalized racism with lingering consequences, we, Americans, developed more vigilance on the issue, and I think this experience and this point of view should be considered across the globe. I do not appreciate the way you speak of it, and I’d rather have you respect, even if not immediately understand, this position.”
-Your comment, with personal attacks taken out.
I ask you to consider the way users express themselves around Lemmy, and keep this place nice and tidy. Personal attacks and flaming are better left to Reddit. What makes the Lemmyverse so amazing is the cooperation of kind strangers, and in the spirit of it, it would be amazing for you not to provoke flaming and aggression.
I’m no admin and no mod, but a kind patriot of the Lemmy space, and I sincerely hope you could listen up to this and be kinder next time, even to the people who aren’t perfectly keeping to the good conduct themselves.
boo-hoo someone was mean to the racist troll, and everyone’s usually so nice on here! gimme a break
Everyone usually is nice. Sad to see some people turning this place into a shithole. Guess that’s inevitable end of large communities?
The person aggressively pointed out that you may have too much emphasis on the racial aspect, which is clearly demonstrated by the original post. You ended up being too blinded by your immediate need to put some rage on them and consider them nothing but troll.
That’s very Reddit my dude. I urge you to educate on holding polite and fruitful conversations, otherwise your entire influence on the communities would be nothing but a shitstorm of uneducated and useless negativity.
Or to speak in your terms, “boo-hoo the crybaby got triggered by a few words and shitted all over the place and now enjoys sitting right there. Maybe we should teach our little boy to wipe his ass? He’s gonna make this place untenable otherwise”
The aggrieved
crybullying is something else istg
DEAR GOD! The patriarchy! A successful woman…who’s probably rich and living in a nice house and owns a nice car who may have not put her face out there that much wasn’t recognized for who she was immediately.
Also who was that guy? what are his qualifications? Has he achieved anything?
I suspect this story didn’t happen. How could you be so bad and speaking about your own work that someone questions it like that?
