Me too. Thanks.
That’s me, but I live in a red state, so everyone says I’m far left (to put it nicely).
Same. But I’m also for gun control as well. Like, don’t ban them outright, just make them a whole hell of a lot harder to get. Like really hard. I live in an area that has bobcats, bears, and the occasional mountain lion. I own a pistol to protect myself and my critters (a flock of ducks and two dogs) in case of an attack. I don’t want to use it and it won’t kill a big predator like a bear or mountain lion, but I only want it to scare the animals off if they get too close. It hasn’t left the locked drawer I keep it in since I bought my house in 2022. I’m hoping it’ll never have to come out.
Thanks, Santa. Very cool.
Sounded good on paper but those workers kept their guns and still gave the government and capitalists everything they wanted without a single shot fired.
All you’re doing is posting a picture of Marx with an example of him being wrong.
Oligarchs discovered that you can achieve more with propaganda. And cheaper.
The rebellious youth got utterly subverted, for example.
(Yes yes, rage on about your gender and haircolor. We’ll just keep running the world and squeezing the underclass)
We could also achieve more without guns but unfortunately some people are content using guns as magic talismans instead.
He does miss from time to time
The only part he missed from this quote was in the context that followed, where he then said to surrender your guns after the revolution, because the proletariat would be armed through the People’s Military (paraphrased, obviously)
Reading these comments it seems like most of the anti gun crowd thinks pro gun is about machismo at the cost of tragedy. It’s mainly about protection of the people from the government. It’s the last failsafe to keeping free in the case of tyranny. We all agree there needs to be better regulation because in the past and currently the laws are designed over feelings and not facts, for example barrel length restrictions or pistol grips that mainly only effects the ergonomics.
Underpinning that argument is the argument that you need a good argument if you want me to respect your opinion.
Which is fucked up.
As someone who flips between the two I’ve noticed neither side seems to really get where the other side is coming from. The anti gun people don’t get that there is a certain amount of fear of government, or how guns work. The pro gun people tend to not understand that the government is already tyrannical, the cops have military weapons, and that a lot of gun enthusiasts are exactly the sort of people who we shouldn’t let have guns.
The people I want armed are the people who dread having to use a gun on another person and have a level of fear and respect for these tools and a level of trust that very few strangers have any desire to initiate violence. Meanwhile I keep hearing coworkers talk about how they have couch guns and saying how they draw when strangers approach them. Mentally unstable people with guns are a real problem and we as a country seem to insist on doing nothing that could actually help.
You’ve read too many fairy tales if you think a gun will protect you from the government … Haha
One problem with the anti-tyranny argument is that guns would much more easily be the means by which tyranny is implemented than the means by which it is taken down. Imagine a more well-armed Jan 6. Then of course once the dictatorship is in place, eliminating the right to bear arms - or more likely, making it exclusive to the dictator’s allies - becomes trivial.
Now in that case, conceivably a pre-existing right to bear arms could be used to stash weapons for a resistance movement that might gradually over the course of a decades-long civil war reestablish some semblance of democracy. But by that point we’ve already lost, haven’t we?
guns to me, are more about sport and the potential for them to be useful to you in rare circumstances, more than shooting at an f35 that is launching a nuclear warhead at me from three miles away.
Your government fucks you up, every single day, week after week, year after year and the only people who own guns are the ones that are too cowardly to use them.
They couldn’t protect you against a fucking duck
Prove me wrong
It’s mainly about protection of the people from the government.
Lol sure there John Wayne.
I legit can’t think of another country with people that LARP more about revolution than the US. Most affluent country in the world and you’re constantly imagining youselves forming up and fighting back against tanks and helicopters (or your fellow citizens who happen to vote for the other team). It’d be funny if it wasn’t so tragic and bizarre.
to be fair, being pro gun is typically about machismo power fantasy at the cost of that.
if youre going to fight the people who are genuinely ruining your life, guns, especially in the way Americans think of them, are not the primary tool for the job. if youre going to defend your home, also a bad tool. do not fire a gun indoors.
add to that: the people mostly advocating for chemical guns are against the proliferation of other effective weapons for the purpose (anti drone and anti armor weapons, ied’s) and against fighting the people you actually need guns to fight, and can’t just talk shit out with.
so while I do not give a shit about guns, someone saying they’re pro gun is a huge red flag, and most ‘pro gun’ rhetoric is shit.
I’m not an american and guns are not legal where i live. And i’m sorry but most people in the world are way to daft and angry and should NOT be allowed to be anywhere near a gun.
And no, just because someone with a gun would want to hurt me but then i would have a gun too, is not a valid response. I’m not gonna survive a shootout. I’m not john wick.
idk it’s an interesting conversation to have, but it’s also like saying that owning swords should be illegal or at the very least highly regulated because they can be dangerous.
I don’t have a fundamental problem with people owning guns, or dangerous things, i have a fundamental problem with people who have a violent history getting access to guns however.
A sword is nowhere near as dangerous as a gun, Evan a pistol. A pistol can kill from many feet away, a sword you need to be close. Just because something is dangerous doesn’t mean it should be banned, but when you get to a certain level of danger, such as guns, where you could kill 10 people in a second, then they need to be banned. Even pistols are way to dangerous. Also, swords are highly regulated in some states.
yeah, that’s not my point though, do you think swords were designed to sit on a wall and look pretty? They were an instrument of war.
My point is pretty explicit. Also, melee weapons, in particular ranged melee weapons can be incredibly dangerous. You need to be close sure, but you can be behind someone, or they could simply not be paying attention, or you could be concealing a knife as you walk past someone for instance. Technically you can do it with a gun also, but a knife is vastly easier to control.
Likely not as dangerous, but idk how good those stats would be to begin with, a well placed knife wound can fuck someone up proper. Even a center of mass shot with a gun can be trivial to survive.
Also i’m pretty sure 10 a second is hyperbolic, 1 per second i suppose.
Even pistols are way to dangerous. Also, swords are highly regulated in some states.
im pretty sure most states highly regulate guns as well, there are a few that have pretty lax carry laws. But it’s questionable how much impact those have.
Then again, an assault rifle can fire roughly ten rounds a second, and you’d have great difficulty stabbing ten people every second with a sword, there is a difference in dangerousness
you would have incredible difficulty in landing ten rounds per second, into ten different people, per second. Especially from distance.
I would absolutely love to have a gun. But it’s not worth everyone else having one too
I am a bit curious where you live. Most places with decent gun control doesn’t outright ban guns, you just have to earn the privilege to own one, and you can’t treat them like toys.
Skill issue.
and should NOT be allowed to be anywhere near a gun.
The only problem with that concept is that it assumes there’s a class of people that know better and are entitled to rule us, but in actuality, political office attracts the worst of us. Why should the worst subset of humans control whether the everyone else is allowed self-defense?
People overwhelmingly agree that (broadly speaking about the US here) the government isn’t working for us, hasn’t been for a long time, and is infringing on our rights constantly.
So where are all those gun people with their guns given all this government tyranny going on? What are they doing?
And besides, if any gun owner thinks that they wouldn’t be absolutely steamrolled by the military, they’re lying to themselves.
So where are all those gun people with their guns given all this government tyranny going on? What are they doing?
pissing and shitting themselves over the concept of liberals and queer people owning guns because it makes them quake in their boots.
(not all of them to be fair, a lot of them are pretty chill, and i respect them for that, but there is a CONCERNING amount of these people regardless.)
It’s not just defense against government tyranny. I’m a trans person, I’d like to not feel helpless when attacked and the cops are on the attacker’s side. If I’m gonna die or end up incarcerated, I’m gonna do the community a good one and remove a threat on my way out.
So where are all those gun people with their guns given all this government tyranny going on? What are they doing?
Most people on both sides of the gun debate are the victims of propaganda ensuring most guns are in the hands of those controlling the propaganda.
And besides, if any gun owner thinks that they wouldn’t be absolutely steamrolled by the military, they’re lying to themselves.
Full out war against the state isn’t the only way guns can be useful for self-defense against tyranny. I don’t want my rights taken away because your imagine is small. I agree, a few people w/ AKs are no match against the military.
If I’m gonna die or end up incarcerated, I’m gonna do the community a good one and remove a threat on my way out.
I get that you’re in a social group that is more at risk of attack, and I really wish it wasn’t that way. However, the kind of mindset you’re espousing here is the same justification people use to shoot minorities, or shoot children for walking into their lawns, or to shoot people turning around in their driveways. Too often, people are jumpy, racist, and not mentally equipped to handle guns. There are other things that can be used to defend yourself.
Full out war against the state isn’t the only way guns can be useful for self-defense against tyranny.
Please tell me what other way there is. When fighting the government, there’s no middle ground between a small group attacking targets and all-out war. And all-out war is not the way anyone wants things to go.
I get that you’re in a social group that is more at risk of attack, and I really wish it wasn’t that way. However, the kind of mindset you’re espousing here is the same justification people use to shoot minorities, or shoot children for walking into their lawns, or to shoot people turning around in their driveways. Too often, people are jumpy, racist, and not mentally equipped to handle guns. There are other things that can be used to defend yourself.
ok, but there’s a difference between your rights being actively infringed upon, and being an entitled piece of shit. This is why things like prison exist. And laws.
That guy in florida that mag dumped on the middle of the fucking highway? Definitely shouldn’t own a gun, but he also got no punishment for it That shit should be illegal. There are a lot of states where stand your ground laws aren’t a thing, my state for instance has pretty specific and strict laws around when you can and cannot shoot people in your own home.
There isn’t another way, like almost ALL gun owners they are deluding themselves… Guns aren’t even good for self defense, for the average person. They are like 5 times more likely to kill themselves with it, or accidentally shoot/kill an innocent…
The real problem, is people being stupid enough to believe owning guns is going to protect them from a fascist government. (Hint they won’t)
The only hope is voting against fascists NOW. Once they get control, that gun in your closet ain’t going to save you.
The real problem, is people being stupid enough to believe owning guns is going to protect them from a fascist government. (Hint they won’t)
The only hope is voting against fascists NOW. Once they get control, that gun in your closet ain’t going to save you.
I have a kind of problem with rhetoric like this, because it implies that shooting and killing fascists is broadly an ineffective tactic, which I do not believe to be the case
Shooting and killing fascists generally is not effective as a spontaneous demonstration of opposition.
If you’ve ascended to the point of shooting and killing fascists, acquiring weapons is probably pretty low on your list of practical problems to solve (in order to be able to shoot and kill fascists).
Shooting and killing fascists generally is not effective as a spontaneous demonstration of opposition.
I mean do we have a whole lot of like, examples of this happening as a case of action? I really can’t think of any, I dunno if we’d be able to ascertain it’s efficacy without that.
Lots, generally in the lead-up and early years of fascist takeovers. Lone wolf assassinations, attacks by small groups, the like. The 20s had numerous anti-fascist assassinations, and the early-mid 30s had anti-Nazi assassinations.
Effective resistance movements only develop out of the roots of organization, direction, and subversion, at which point there are numerous paths to getting the needed weapons and shooting some fascists. Prior gun ownership is a footnote in such operations at best - a liability at worst.
The other points are well taken, I wasn’t really thinking so much along those lines. Dunno so much what lines I was thinking along honestly. Probably armed resistance leading up to a fascist government, including armed protest sort of thing, which doesn’t really involve shooting people so much as it does just kinda standing around with a gun so other people don’t get shot most of the time, I think.
And yet the only BLM protests during the summer that didn’t get blasted with beanbags and pepperballs were the ones where armed protesters stood in front of police. It’s almost like fascists do not relish the thought of taking on armed citizenry.
I’m not an american and guns are not legal where i live.
What about your police? What about your military? Do they fight with swords and bows and stuff? Actually that sounds pretty cool where do you live I wanna move
I’m not sure you’re correct. If you’re from a European country, chances are you have very good fun laws, and a lot of people in your country own guns. The difference is, you also a have working healthcare system that helps people with psychological problems.
I live in Sweden. Most people would assume there are no guns here, but I can tell you that’s wrong.
I train with them a lot, so if and when I need to, I can safely use them.
Why would anybody assume there were no guns in Sweden? If they were mentally challenged?
Just saying, the guy that wrote that guns aren’t legal in their country.
Yup that’s me. No major party has all 3.
Sigh
Saw this on lemmy recently ❤️
Yeah that’s sound great me.
Part of the problem is that nobody is actually “Pro-Gun”.
What you have is “Pro-White people gun dealers” on one end and “Pro-Cop” on the other. Selling AR-15s and antique rifles to people who think having more hardware in the house makes them safer? Sure. Giving the municipal government endless license to harass and surveil anyone too young or brown to be considered a Real American? Absolutely.
But neither of these groups want you to carry a gun into, say, a congressional building. Neither want to disarm the police or downsize the military. Neither want to see an armed Black woman or Arab man walking towards them.
The only real debate is whether a cop should be allowed to arrest a white guy at a gun show
I mean I know black gun enthusiasts who are pro-gun…
I love guns. I adore guns. Guns are great. They’re fascinating pieces of engineering, tools, and exercises of skill. I would never own one (to my great regret) due to the increased risk of suicide from gun-owners, but I think that responsible gun ownership is a great thing and a cultural cornerstone of Americana.
But no one in the US who claims to be pro-gun should be allowed anywhere near a gun.
Maybe in some frozen waste like Canada where it’s not completely piss-easy to get a gun, one can describe oneself as pro-gun. But in the US? No.
Oh it’s piss easy to get a Gun in Canada… You just have drive down to the States.
Seriously though around 70 percent of guns used in criminal activities up here are traced back to sources in the States and were never legally imported, purchased or even stolen from homes inside Canada. When people point at us and say “Gun control doesn’t work see!?” it’s in part because gun trash bleeds over boarders.
I have a sense that you know all this, but, just wanted to chime in- the system in Canada where you have to take a course and pass a screening is costly & a pain in the ass. Bottom line, legally, it’s neither fast nor easy to get a firearm in Canada, and on top of that, the RCMP can deny any application that they see fit. But ultimately, I think the existing licensing system is a reasonable management of risks, and overall a good thing.
Unfortunately, gun control here is a wedge issue, and political points are easily scored by banning / confiscating guns from legal owners, who, as you mention, were never the problem in the first place. Actually fixing the gun crime issue here would be difficult, costly, and an optics minefield.
IMO, the penalties for being found with an illegal firearm or using a firearm to commit a crime should be much more severe. Surely people of all political stripes could get behind that? But, no. We’re in a situation where, on the left, any policy that doesn’t include a sweeping ban is criticized as unacceptable and weak. It sucks, because it means that the actual problem affecting citizens goes unsolved, and nobody seems to care.
How can you be anti something another person chooses to do privately with their body blows my mind
How you can be anti able to end others lives using a tool specifically crafted, to not hinder or disable, no but end other peoples ability to continue breathing and living, is beyond me
People have such paranoid hate towards others and then treat themselves like shit and rationalise instead of just fixing their own doorstep before attacking others
Hey all I am saying is hand a gun to one side in this image and one of them is trigger happy versus the other.
There’s hundreds of us!
Centre right - like Sanders
There are dozens of us! Tbh, there are lgbt gun clubs afaik. It’s just not a mainstream position, but eh dgaf
Well, as long as the owner instills good discipline and is responsible
There is also the Socialist Rifle Association.
Go far enough left, you get your guns back.
You don’t have to go particularly far.
Just stop having a hard-on for the cops and suddenly guns regain a lot of their appeal
Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.
- Karl Marx
There’s a comedian that pointed out this is why conservative groups garner so much support.
“Do you oppose abortion?” “No.” “Do you hate the gays?” “No.” “Do you think illegal immigrants should be shot?” “Yeah.” “Well, COME ON DOWN!”
Meanwhile, liberal groups after asking about 18 issues: “Are you vegan?” “No.” “Well, I BET you voted for TRUMP!!”
I miss when we could find common ground in politics.
i think most liberals hate vegans but still applies
It’s an edgelord thing, it transcends ideology
My carnivore friends are massively more evangelical than my vegan friends. Just my experience I guess.
Meanwhile, liberal groups after asking about 18 issues: “Are you vegan?” “No.” “Well, I BET you voted for TRUMP!!”
No shortage of carnivore liberals.
But I’ll never understand why declining to eat meat upsets people so much.
I don’t give a fuck if you don’t eat meat up until you start giving me shit for eating meat.
The argument is always for the greater good and from a position of superiority. That’s just authoritarianism from a different angle.
up until you start giving me shit
I’ve seen a conga line of Joe Rogan heads insisting there is an underground anti-meat campaign to target and harass carnivores, nationally.
However, I was eating bbq down in Texas just this weekend, completely unmolested.
The argument is always for the greater good and from a position of superiority.
Sure. Because we produce (and then waste) enormous amounts of meat. And the production of meat consumes an enormous amount of arable land and potable water. And we absolutely would be much better off - from a climate change perspective - if we weren’t growing almonds to feed to cows to feed the choicest bits of to people.
Vegans have us all dead to rights, logically and ecologically.
But they’re a tiny minority working against the capitalist drive, and also they’re soy and gay.
Mostly they’re the whipping kids of an industry that does unfathomable cruelty and waste and then feels the need to complain about how they’re the victims.
That’s just authoritarianism
Go look up the time Oprah Winfrey was forced to apologize to the Texas Cattle Ranchers Association because she mentioned a burger gave her food poisoning.
Right wing objections are different topic. I was speaking as a liberal/leftist and their feelings towards vegans.
Veganism has its own propaganda. The claims that it is better are always cherry picked to prove the point. I am not interested in arguing with what is essentially a religious movement.
Your mention of Oprah apologizing isn’t authoritarianism. It’s capitalism. The force was monetary.
Veganism will happily pass laws to enforce their belief that meat eating is evil.
The meat industry will happily pass laws to protect their profits.
These are not the same at all.
Veganism has its own propaganda. The claims that it is better are always cherry picked to prove the point. I am not interested in arguing with what is essentially a religious movement.
Right, so here’s where the conversation really breaks down. There’s some really basic math that goes into why - up until very recently in human history and a very agriculturally rich area like the territory over the Ogallala Aquifer - you couldn’t get a pound of rib eye for $5. Raw material consumption to produce a pound of beef is orders of magnitude above production of wheat or corn or rice.
That’s not an article of religious dogma or a cherry picked factoid. That’s a hard truth anyone in the cattle industry can tell you. You’re not driving hundreds of thousands of head of cattle through Southern France or Ukraine’s black earth or the central desert of Australia. The industry only works because of an artifact of geography that is the central plains. And we get to produce these enormous surpluses for a limited time, as we cannibalize the territory with an invasive disease-spreader replacement to the native species.
How quickly we move through our available surplus is predicated on how aggressively we farm cattle. And thanks to our capitalist growth model, we’re going through it at a breakneck pace. All the moreso because of state subsidies fueled by kickbacks and corrupt business practices.
Your mention of Oprah apologizing isn’t authoritarianism. It’s capitalism. The force was monetary.
It wasn’t just monetary. The terms of the settlement required Oprah to apologize on air. What’s more, there is always an implied threat of violence behind a monetary penalty. Try not paying a fine or a debt and see what happens next. Repo men routinely pack heat.
The meat industry will happily pass laws to protect their profits.
Which is also authoritarian.
K.
Republicans aren’t pro-gun. They’re pro-republicans-with-guns. Maybe pro-straight-white-christians-with-guns.
This just in: Most liberals want sensible gun regs, not bans.
Most liberals, or most American liberals?
I wish this were true, but it’s not.
