This issue really evokes my emotions, because of how much I love sports. I think sports are a vitally important part of the human experience. I guess dance is, too, but we’re not talking about dance, in and of itself.
Dance isn’t a sport. Period. Ever. Nobody can change my mind about this. Dance is potentially expressive, beautiful, socially useful, entertaining, etc. But it IS NOT A FUCKING SPORT.
Only sports should be in the goddamned Olympics, and shoving non-sports into the mix is shameful and disgusting. It’s a wad of spit in the face of every great athlete who has ever taken the field. It’s a disgrace to the Ancient Greek tradition that the Olympics are attempting to continue.
I don’t give a fuck that there are already competitions for breakdancing. Or ballroom dancing. People can hold competitions for whatever they want. I actually think competitions shouldn’t be held for entirely subjective and artistic activities, but people can do whatever the fuck they want.
But not in the fucking Olympics. This shit makes me sick.
And before you start pointing out the other subjective, judged events that are already in the Olympics: THEY SHOULD ALL BE REMOVED, TOO. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. NONE OF THEM BELONG.
No more gymnastics (rhythmic or otherwise). No more figure skating and ice dancing. No more skateboarding. No more surfing. No more synchronized swimming. No more freestyle skiing. No more diving. No more BMX. No more ANYTHING that requires judging.
You might browbeat me into admitting that some of those subjectively judged activities are sports, but you will never convince me that they belong in the Olympics.
Olympic sports should be restricted to those which are determined by means of a clock, a measuring tape, the accumulation of OBJECTIVELY scored points, or a physical beating.
Even some of those should be on the chopping block. Some of the points-scoring events are too subjective. If a sport relies too much on fallible human judging, it should be excluded.
The vast majority of the events should be arbitrated only by the cold, merciless, absolute judgment of the clock or the measuring tape. Therein lies the truest purity of sport.
Honestly, the best thing to do would be to reset everything to the REAL tradition of the Olympics. Almost nothing, other than running, jumping, and fighting. With an absolute minimum of rules to get in the way, and all the athletes competing in the nude. Just sandals on their feet. No space-age materials to help anyone. Nothing for anyone to hide. Just human muscle and determination, on display at the greatest possible level.
But it’s all a forlorn dream. Instead, we have to have our stomachs turned, as a bunch of revolting little shitheads wobble and headspin.
The ancient Olympians are going to be spinning in their fucking graves.
EDIT: YES, I AM AWARE THAT THE FIRST COUPLE MODERN OLYMPICS FEATURED NON-SPORT ACTIVITIES, LIKE SCULPTURE AND PAINTING. THAT DOESN’T CHANGE MY VIEW. INCLUDING ART IN THE MODERN OLYMPICS WAS A RIDICULOUS MISTAKE. JUST BECAUSE IT WAS DONE BEFORE DOESN’T MEAN IT SHOULD BE DONE NOW.
I agree with this opinion.
I think bellringing should be an olympic sport just to spite you
You know, at least you were consistent in then going after all judged competitions.
I can’t tell how you feel about boxing
Did the guy go down? Did he stay down? That’s a point.
Is he breathing? Does he have a pulse? Then the fight isn’t over yet.
LET’S PROVE WHO THE BEST COUNTRY IS! ULTRAMODERN ULTRAVIOLENCE!
The Olympics succeeded in driving me away long before this bullshit. You couldn’t pay me to watch any event.
You’re an unhinged dipshit. Have an upvote.
I think all sports have more subjectivity than you are admitting. How often have you heard someone yell at an umpire or referee seen as unfair?
As I said, most team sports do not fit my stringent definition, as well as most of the current versions of the formerly pure sports.
I believe we should strive for as few rules as possible, with as little subjective interpretation as possible. Like I keep saying, I think the ideal should be for the winner to always be determined by the clock, the measuring tape, or the last opponent left standing.
I truly believe subjective judgement degenerates the purity of athletic activity. The fact that subjective umpires bring so much disharmony and bile is evidence that I am on the right track. The more we can remove the referees from the proceedings, the better sports will be.
You should just make up a new word for what you’re calling ‘pure sports’. There’s no definition of ‘sports’ that even implies your concept of ‘purity’ is valid.
“Pure” isn’t even the right word. More like “unchill dude” sports, a category that only one person cares about, named appropriately.
Middle aged libertarian bro watching activities.
Make that two people. I fully agree with OP, and I think my definition of sport would be nearly identical to theirs.
Obviously you’re never going to escape the subjectivity of events in which humans participate and the application of those rules, unless we want to just program machines to compete for us.
I think a better approach to what OP is saying is that there shouldn’t be a competition in the Olympics where the method of scoring itself requires subjective determination.
-
Basketball: you throw the ball through the hoop, you get points.
-
Football: you get the ball in this cage, you get a point
-
Freedom Football: you get the ball over this line, you get points.
-
Baseball: you circle the diamond, you get a point.
-
Curling: your rock, uh… lands in a circle I guess? And that gives you a point, or points?
-
Cricket: you… run between posts?
Etc.
Point is, while each of the above does require some amount of subjective judgement to determine if each team/competitor is following the rules, the winner of the game usually doesn’t depend on it.
Compare that to, say, figure skating or high diving or gymnastics, where the score depends completely on how well other people think a competitor did.
And even then, the humans making the robots are going to try to skirt the intent of the rules… Heck, even PvP computer games, which are probably as objective as you can get, need to be patched constantly to stop people using unintended quirks to their advantage.
Maybe there’s no such thing as an objective sport?
All of those require significant judgment. A dew examples:
Basketball: how many points is the shot worth/were they behind the 3 pt line? Was that a foul? Was it a flagrant violation that requires an ejection? The latter two apply to most in your list.
Baseball: more than others in your list, this requires subjective calls. Balls/strikes, safe/out, home run/off the wall, etc.
US Football: was that a first down/where should the ball be placed? Touchdowns in particular have specific rules about the ball crossing the plane that can take a long time and significant deliberation.
Edit: I’d also reject your claim that outcomes don’t depend on these calls. Many games come down to close calls.
Gymnastics, high diving, etc. have a very strict scoring system as well. There’s a very objective way to score how things are done, it just looks subjective to people who weren’t involved in those sports.
Most sports look weird and subjective if you were unfamiliar with the rules, but after many decades, are extremely codified and much more objective than they appear.
Anyone that wants things to be simpler or more pure probably don’t understand the reasoning and history behind the rules.
That being said, like any rule set, a lot can be gained from starting from scratch. You just need to have a deep understanding of the way things are in the first place, otherwise you’d be making a lot of the same mistakes.
If figure skating was objective then the 2002 judging scandal couldn’t have happened.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympics_figure_skating_scandal
Strict, yes, but not objective.
No one is checking the height and diameter of the splash a high diver makes when she enters the water, or the exact angle a figure skater’s foot makes when he lands a triple lutz, or what the decibel level is for a cheerleading team. All of those are judged based on years of observation, but at the end of the day it’s still people’s opinions of the performance.
If you hit a hole-in-one on a par 4, everyone agrees your score is -4. If you do a floor mat routine, one judge might think it was absolutely perfect and give you a 10 and one judge might think it was sloppy and give you an 8. And you can’t argue one was right and the other wasn’t, because it’s still comes down to the opinion of the judges.
-
In the comments, you talk a lot about judges. So, baseball should be banned too, right? Since balls and strikes are a human call? And of course, they have to call people safe or out, sometimes determine if a ball actually left the park, etc.
And basketball, would every shot be worth the same number of points, since we don’t have judges to say whether someone was behind the 3 point line?
And any sports would be a free-for-all with no penalties? Since judges make those calls, right? Sure, you can call them umpires or refs, but they are still judges.
And fighting would require a complete knockout to win? What if someone lays down and pretends because they don’t want to fight any more? Who makes that call? You need to objectively knockout (or maybe you want killing?) to win. I’m just confused as to how that works without a judge.
As I said, I would indeed throw out most team sports, which rely on too much subjective interpretation of rules.
As I have said multiple times, I believe we should strive to base the victor as much as possible on MEASUREMENTS. Like the measurement of time or distance.
As for fight sports, I really believe the Pankration should be contested. I realize modern people don’t have the stomach for it. But, ya know, I have been complaining about degeneration all this time. People have become what they’ve become, and I can’t do anything about it, other than fucking complain.
So, just to be clear, cheating should be allowed because penalties are subjective? In a race, I could trip my opponents?
Sadly, pankration has scoring. Any better ideas?
Home slice, you try break dancing and then tell me it’s not a sport.
Preaching to the choir (or maybe replying to the wrong comment?). I think OP is 100% wrong, just trying to see his logic through to the end.
Couple of questions… Why does it matter to you that some people consider it a sport? Does the very idea being contrary to your opinion, make the sports you consider as such any less sports? The first antique olympics had horse racing. Where does shooting, curling, archery, golf, equestrian, etc, fit in this definition? If no, why does dance bother you so much all of a sudden, and why not as much anger towards them?
What’s that “Ancient Greek tradition” you seem to want to protect the purity of, and why does or should it matter? There’s been events that were added, tested out, and many removed subsequently, throughout the olympics’ history. It’s not the first time some event doesn’t make unanimity as far as everyone liking the event. Some people threw a hissy fit when snowboarding and later skateboarding were included, for example. Who gets to decide if an event fits in there? Is the practice of trying it out and reevaluating next olympics that terrible?
It’s not like modern olympics are some sacred and pure untouchable event underlining human performance for the sake of it. Unless you’ve avoided the subject on purpose, which would be surprising considering your position here, the CIO itself isn’t made out of saints doing it all for the love of sports either…
horse racing
There’s no problem with horse racing. It is judged by the clock. It is objective.
shooting, curling, archery, golf, equestrian, etc
As I said in my post I WANT ALL THE SUBJECTIVELY JUDGED EVENTS OUT. NOT JUST THE DANCE-RELATED ONES. That means a lot of the team sports, too, because many of them have FAR too many finnicky, subjectively-interpreted rules.
I think the Olympics should only include sports arbitrated by THE CLOCK or THE MEASURING TAPE or THE LAST OPPONENT LEFT STANDING.
Did you not read any of this in my post? Did you really just read the title?
There’s no problem with horse racing. It is judged by the clock. It is objective.
My question was more about how does it pass as a “sport” in your eyes while dance doesn’t? Equestrian as a whole also absolutely has judge/point based events, and isn’t limited to racing horses.
I WANT ALL THE SUBJECTIVELY JUDGED EVENTS OUT. NOT JUST THE DANCE-RELATED ONES
Literally none of the ones you quoted (“shooting, curling, archery, golf, equestrian, etc”) are judged particularly subjectively though, so not sure how your… very loud and angry answer relates to the question I asked. It’s also a pretty wide ask, and I’m curious how you suggest this would go. I honestly can’t think of many sports that doesn’t have some level of subjective judgement in certain situations outside pure athleticism, so aren’t you basically just conflating athleticism and sports as far as olympics goes, and that’s it? Can’t think of much more subjective than being at the whim of a horse’s health, fitness and good will, for example.
I think the Olympics should only include sports arbitrated by THE CLOCK or THE MEASURING TAPE or THE LAST OPPONENT LEFT STANDING.
Based on what? There were a couple of questions I literally asked in my previous comment that would have helped clearing your views on this, for example, regarding why you feel the olympics as an event have this sanctity or aura that needs protecting.
Did you not read any of this in my post? Did you really just read the title?
You’re saying this, while having skipped most of the questions I asked, most of them exactly in response to the things you’re now saying I didn’t read. Note how my previous comment was purposefully a bunch of questions rather than me posing an opinion. Even re-reading my previous comment, I still feel like most of them were specifically on things you did not address in your original post. I therefore have a lot of trouble assuming you’re not looking to have a conversation, but to have people to shout at, which I’m not interested in at all…
I was ready to downvite you but decided to not vote at all. I don’t necessarily agree with you but I appreciate you being consistent in your ideas. Before I read the body of the text I assumed you would be mad at breakdancers but ok with gymnasts, which would have earned you a downvite for hypocrisy but now I see that you have a more specific view on this after reading everything. Fair enough.
The fact that you actually read the body of my post (rather than accuse me of hypocrisy after just reading the title) gives me the slight amount of hope that will keep me going, to further torture myself by being on the Internet for another day.
So, like, I don’t know whether to thank you or insult you. :P
First of all well done at posting an unpopular opinion. Are you aware how much you’ve contradicted yourself?
It’s a disgrace to the Ancient Greek tradition that the Olympics are attempting to continue.
JUST BECAUSE IT WAS DONE BEFORE DOESN’T MEAN IT SHOULD BE DONE NOW.
That’s a contradiction. Also, the ancient greeks didn’t have the concept of sport were super into dancing - spartans especially - so this whole argument is void.
I’m sorry that something you say you enjoy (the olympics) makes you so angry.
Just wait till he finds out that the ancient Greeks didn’t have a winter Olympics
I’d rather just add full contact violence to existing competitive sports. Ooh, combat dancing, give dancers swords and they fight either elimination rounds or Battle Royale.
Ice dancing and figure skating have been Olympic sports for a long time so what’s the difference?
Sigh.
PLEASE read the body of my post. I specifically said that I want all those other subjectively judged events to be removed, too.
Can I please ask you if you did read the body of the post, and you just somehow missed my huge list of existing events that I want removed?
Or did you just read the title and immediately respond?
I don’t even care if that’s what you did. I just want to know.
I did read it, but I somehow forgot that part by the time I made my reply.
I can understand where you are coming from with your post. It does seem odd to have subjective events next to events that have objective winners. That being said, I really don’t watch or give 2 shits about the Olympics at all. I think they are a drain on whatever community they are held in. They should just do an Olympic island or something.
I did read it, but I somehow forgot that part
Ya know, you’re one of a very few really honest people I’ve met on Lemmy. Kudos.
I agree fully, and my wife can attest that I’ve expressed this exact same sentiment, with equally animated language, on multiple occasions over the years.
Good to hear. Although I do hope that means you didn’t upvote. A lot of people don’t understand how Unpopular Opinions is supposed to work. :)
You’ll take your popular opinion downvote, and you’ll like it!
As long as I can upvote this comment, in disagreement!
Also, I find it interesting that at least a couple of the people who REALLY HATE my opinion are taking vague pot-shots at me, implying that I’m some kind of hyper-masculine, macho-macho, caveman-style motherfucker, who only holds this opinion because of GRRRRR REAL-MAN MACHO ENERGY.
But here you are, with your wife agreeing. Uh-oh…I guess, according to some of these people, she’s got a lot of internalized misogyny issues to work through. :P
Personally I wouldn’t mind the Olympics going back to being an excuse to watch oiled up naked muscley guys do things like in ancient Greece. But I do think dance would go really well with that.
Anybody wants to do a naked, greased-up victory dance after they win the Pankration, that’s fine with me. But don’t judge the dance. Dance isn’t for competing.
