people burning fossil fuels to eviscerate co2 absorbing plants twice a week
“My impact on climate is minimal”
I can understand your frustration comrade, so let me translate for you.
Humans < cars and/or lawns
Lawns are better than concrete
Lawns beget concrete elsewhere (in the form of parking lots) by being too low-density for walkability.
Bus, Cable Car, Train, Bicycle
You would think people in this community wouldn’t say something so foolish
Yes, what you’re saying is foolish.
It’s an issue of low density. Having single-family houses spread apart with lawns necessarily lowers the viability of methods other than driving because e.g. you have to walk farther to get to destinations, there are fewer riders per mile along the transit line, etc.
Look you don’t know what you’re talking about and it’s fine
The roads do way more for spreading people apart than the lawns do
Whether you have grass or trees on people’s property does not impact density
Whether you build a single-family house with a yard or an apartment building on a lot absolutely impacts density. Hell, even among single-family houses, whether the minimum lot size is 9000 square feet or two acres (real zoning categories on my city, BTW) absolutely impacts density.
An apartment with a lawn vs an apartment without doesn’t impact density
Nor does a two hectare lot with one vs a two hectare lot without
You just keep insisting on missing the point, don’t you? This thread is not actually about grass vs. other plants with density held equal, and never was.
lawns are shit and they were actually a tool for colonialism. they quite literally came in fashion because rich people in europe were flexin with their wealth because they could spend their land and work force for lawn that looked pretty and contributed for nothing. they even took those same lawn species for america so keeo that same flexing going on.
fuck lawns. Go actually diverse meadow plants that bugs need!
also lawns are insanely unecofriendly despite being plants.
Read the title, your argument shouldn’t be things better than lawns
It should be that concrete is better or no argument at all
I never said they were worse than concrete. just stated that lawns are shit and shouldn’t existed
edit: I do understand your comment though and I just wanted to rant aboutnit
Except in europe we have trees, flowers, vegetables, plants. Real gardens.
Not just an ugly lawn like this, you never see just a lawn with nothing on it.
Are americans allergic to trees or something ?
These days, you’ll lose your homeowners insurance for having trees anywhere near your house. They’re legit taking drone pictures on that now.
I guess it could be because of big storms in some areas, but losing it really ? Why not just more expensive for vulnerables/dangerous trees ?
This is nonsense
Grass lawns aren’t.
Lawns are 100000% better than an impermeable hardscape like concrete.
You say that like those are the only two options.
Golf courses? Malls?
Giant parking lots and big box stores?
Decorative open space is important for making cities livable but uh… lawns ain’t it.
Also nice to have space between your neighbors for privacy and mental health
Issue is, these US-style lawns are often mandated in ways they disallow most other things, unless you want hefty fines.
I’m in Europe, and at least I can have little flowers within the grass, can plant any trees as long as they won’t damage any buildings or cables, and otherwise I can customize my own garden. I could even plant vegetables if the dogs didn’t stamp it, and wouldn’t be so cheap and readily available in the supermarket it doesn’t worth to look after them (once I did grew chili in pots since they’re more scarce in the supermarket).
This doesn’t require single family housing on giant lots. Just well built buildings with proper insulation and sound proofing. I used to think apartments were just noisy until my partner and I moved into our current place. I live on the top floor of a 2 building, 6 unit complex of loft apartments cascading down the side of a hill. The buildings had to be built to withstand the extremely strong winds from the bay, and as such they’re solid as fuck.
Despite our downstairs being tile floor our neighbors have told us they haven’t heard any noise from us at all. My partner and I started being less concerned about noise and began playing somewhat loud music frequently and yell to each other across the unit. Despite this our downstairs neighbors still haven’t heard a peep from us. For a while I genuinely thought our neighbors were just trying to be nice as everyone in our complex is super friendly and gets along well.
One day our neighbor in the adjacent building was woodworking in his garage. Normally the noise wouldn’t bother me, but I was focused on something so I shut the window facing the courtyard which made me realize just how soundproof this giant concrete building is, both between units and to the outside world. I couldn’t hear our neighbors saw unless I opened the curtains and tried to hear it, otherwise it might as well have been very faint background noise. I really wish buildings like this were the norm for apartments because they provide all the privacy of a single family home with all the benefits of apartment buildings.
That’s great.
Might say almost all the benefits. Or all the benefits that are reasonable given we have to share our planet with others.
Like, it’s too great of a privilege to be able to park an emission-spewing cage in a garage and walk directly into a first floor kitchen to load the fridge with groceries. (Plus stairs are healthy anyway. Not referring to disabled folks or special circumstances of course.) I can’t say it’s not a benefit of a single family home, but easy to argue it’s an unjust enrichment for any one able-bodied person at the expense of others and the environment.
Glad you found such amazing and comparatively equitable housing 😃
Edit: remembered many town homes can offer easy grocery loading with their first-floor kitchens! Then you’re just missing a handful of windows on one or both sides. Big apartments should def be much more of a reasonable option, still, for a given footprint.
Thanks! The whole street we live on are similar units and they’re genuinely awesome. Everyone has balconies for plants, and if you want to chill in some grass there are great parks within a 10 minute walk. They would definitely pose a problem for the less able bodied, but the hills of San Francisco aren’t very friendly either. Our unit is one of the two at ground level so groceries aren’t a problem, but we don’t have a car so grocery trips are frequent and small anyway (we also run a HelloFresh discount scheme). Highly recommend giant concrete buildings. They’re a little industrial looking but damn are they great.
We lived in a townhome before actually and it was pretty good as well, but the sound proofing just wasn’t there unfortunately. Not awful but nothing compared to our current place.
This is when we find out rent is $4000/month
Places like this are only expensive in the first place because everyone builds single family homes that use up tons of space. Then we run out of land and the price of everything skyrockets and only then do cities start building vertical. This is largely the problem with affordable housing in the US, but we can’t have property values go down because real estate has become an alternative stock market I guess.
I mean, if you want to be privileged not to use stairs, once the housing gets dense enough they start putting in elevators…
nah this is just modern isolationist propaganda, people have lived without “privacy” for millions of years and were clearly happier for it.
People nowadays think they want privacy, when in fact they’ve just been robbed of closeness to others during their childhood and never learned to deal with having other people close to them. Like for fuck’s sake in the US it’s completely normal to put infants in a completely separate room! It’s inhumane!
Humans are profoundly social animals and thrive when surrounded by others, we are literally living in an officially recognized loneliness epidemic that is harming our physical and mental health.
Yeah I think a lot of that is true but I grew up in apartments and never want to go back to that, luckily we were able to split a house with my wife’s parents so we still share a wall but it’s with family and that is definitely better than random people, plus having some space where you can grow some plants or let your dogs run around is amazing. I wish my and my friends would have gotten together and bought a big pie e of land where we built our homes on and lived together I think that would be really cool
Nor is advocating getting rid of gardens.
Lawns are a result of setback requirements imposed because people were building structures right up to and sometimes over the street.
Yeah, a garden is better than a lawn but most people don’t have the time or care to maintain that. Much easier to just have a mono “crop” that can be relatively easily managed.
Easily managed???
If that were the goal it’d be clover and moss. No mow lawns are the easiest to manage.
Grasses are a huge pain, and simply there because British aristocracy had a hard on for them and we never questioned if it was smart.
Depends on your location and what type of grass you utilize. I for one live in the central plains and have native buffalo grass in the front yard.
I don’t have to water it, I mow it down about twice a year, and buffalo grass flowers which is great for my leaf cutter bees.
Grass isn’t inherently a problem, the problem is most people only plant grass that isn’t native to their locality. Something like buffalo grass is arguably more beneficial to the environment than planting a garden that requires more nutrients and water than the local environment can provide.
I always wondered that grass had to be natural to somewhere
All the “normal” lawn grasses in the US are native to Europe or Asia.
It’s basically the only thing keeping the top soil in any great plains region from blowing away. Buffalo grass in particular is super important at controlling erosion, their roots go down several feet compared to the few inches turf grass provides.
We need more multifamily homes, but I sincerely think that green spaces are super important, not only for the environment, but for the community as well. There’s no reason people who live in multifamily units shouldn’t have access to green spaces or gardens.
We need more multifamily homes, but I sincerely think that green spaces are super important, not only for the environment, but for the community as well. There’s no reason people who live in multifamily units shouldn’t have access to green spaces or gardens.
Agreed, they just should be public spaces, instead of everyone having their individual lawn that they don’t know how to utilise in the best way.
I said more easily. It’s relative. Also, clover and moss are super location/climate specific. What grows natively in Detroit is going to be much different than Miami or reno or jersey city.
I lived in Jersey City for maybe a decade. I think the only two native plants are those trees that smell like cum, and fire hydrants.
aww cmon you don’t like the cum tree everybody loves the cum tree
Especially because British aristocracy was living in Britain, a pretty rainy place, which helps immensely in cultivating grass
How can you build anything without a permit? Man, America is weird AF…
Lawns are a result of setback requirements imposed because people were building structures right up to and sometimes over the street.
And that’s a problem because…?
Height clearance for emergency vehicles (“over the road”), utility servicing, having space to actually have a fire hydrant is important, fire breaks, etc
All that stuff should be accommodated for in the public right-of-way (which includes more than the paved part of the street itself, and usually ends somewhere in the vicinity of the outside edge of the sidewalk). It still doesn’t persuade me that we need setbacks in the private property beyond that.
Exactly, setbacks are classic NIMBY (NIMFY?) bullshit.
Golf. Especially driving ranges.
Not sure about the US, but here in Australia many golf courses are built on flood plains where regular development would not be permitted. Still not nearly as beneficial as native bushland would be, but not as much of a “waste of space” as many tend to believe.
On the grand scheme of things not that bad in comparison to parking and lawns
Yeah it’s large and can be quite wasteful but not that bad
Eh I like to take the George Carlin approach to golf courses they’re large swaths of land that take a lot of chemicals, and water to maintain by cheap labor hidden just far enough away so rich fucks can hit a tiny white ball with a metal stick into a plastic cup.
I’ll agree that overall golf courses aren’t the source of the problems, but they’re the distillation of how our society is structured to how so many resources and exploited labor go into maintaining the wealthy’s way of life.
Golf isn’t really that elitist these days. There are public courses everywhere, games off hours are $20, and equipment can be had for a few hundred dollars. It’s pretty middle class compared to the actual elitist sports.
few hundred dollars compared like near $0-$100 for a lot of sports with free courts/fields at parks (basketball, volleyball, soccer, and flag football are like $20 for a whole group to be able to play for as long as a ball lasts, sports like baseball and tennis require individuals to have some equipment but far less than golf costs), that’s still kinda a lot, especially as a basic cost to enter. OTOH… I have more than one bike and I spent nearly $3K on one solely for hobby use when I was making roughly minimum wage, so its far from elitist.
I’m not saying it’s totally accessible. I’m just saying it hasn’t been a rich/elitists game for some 20 year now.
What, do those plebs not have driveways or garages for their cars? I never have to park on the street, since I just drive up my driveway across my 1/2 acre lawn. It’s quite nice having that “wasted” use of land for my kids to play on whenever they want.
Your kids play on your lawn? Mine don’t, they much prefer the park, that’s why I’m going full tilt into meadowizing my lawn.
It’s also worth noting that there’s almost no kids on our block, despite it being a pretty new neighborhood, because we’re one of a very small handful of younger families that were fortunate enough that they could actually afford to buy a home. Almost everyone else in the neighborhood is older, and their kids have already grown up, because that’s largely the demographic that could afford these houses. It makes me sad for my kids a lot, because there’s really not much to do outside except look at everyone else’s identical homes and kick rocks. We could be doing a lot better than this as a society.
Data doesn’t really support your experience, and that being average. A dip for the millennials but gen z is doing quite well on home ownership. https://fortune.com/2024/01/17/redfin-baby-boomers-gen-z-housing-market-homeownership/
I’m not saying more can’t be done and we’ll see how the past few years affect this, but if there really aren’t any gen z’ers on your block you’re an outlier.
Not everyone wants to risk their children getting stolen at a park.
Having a backyard lawn is a safe way to let kids play while adults don’t have to supervise.
Front lawns aren’t really useful but id absolutely have some form of backyard lawn even if it’s AstroTurf once I have a house.
Contrary to what Fox News would have you believe, snatching kinds up out of parks is a really, really rare thing, especially if the park is busy. Bad guys generally don’t like to be seen doing bad guy shit, and it’s kinda hard not to be seen at a busy public park.
A little less seriously, I did grow up in a rural area and had a forest as my back yard. I really wish more children got to grow up around a wild space like that, rather than deeply managed and heavily sanitized parks and back yards.
It can be both…doesn’t have to be all or nothing. The issue is 99% of suburbia is lawn, and only like 5% of it is used out of the year.
There is an egregious imbalance that needs remediation because the lawns are destroying ecosystems, pollinators and contributing to toxic runoff (rainwater isn’t absorbed by lawns due to their shallow roots). The rainwater pulls all the fertilizer & roundup into the storm water discharge and feeds it into rivers and lakes (hence the algal bloom that is overtaking many lakes in the US).
That’s too bad
Gotta decide between a small risk of abduction or some risk of stealing a fun part of childhood.
Surprised to find a ~quarter of abductions are by strangers :o Mostly relatives for sure but 25% is high.
I’d like to think I’d YOLO it and the odds would play in my favor 😬 Same as walking to school or something… car could hit a family walking, but probablyyyy won’t.
Maybe in our Big Brother future abduction will be almost impossible due to iris scanners or thought police or something draconian. Yayy
I just want to live in a world where I can just walk around and go shopping please I’m begging you world. I’m sick of flying around for tens of miles on end with terrible wings!
Just move to another country. You might also get free medicine as a bonus.
Fuck I wish it were that easy. I wanna get the fuck out of here.
Living abroad as an American is pretty dope.
Isn’t it a bitch to stay indefinitely and find work legally?
Well, from my experience - it’s very easy. Pack your shit and move.
Unrelated to the actual topic, but is anyone else starting to find this “my brother in Christ” meme really irritating? I ain’t your brother, and I don’t give a fuck about your Christ.
Would you prefer they go back to using the n-word instead?
Without context this is extremely funny though
“I don’t like this expression”
“OH YEAH? Then I’m gonna go back to using the N-word”
I didn’t say I was gonna do it! I don’t use either expression.
Huh, today I learned. Thanks grue.
Colon is breaking your link, btw. Thanks for sharing, though, that was interesting.
do you also get angry when people say “thank christ” or “jesus that was close”?
Go away, batin’!
I don’t ever use it, but I love it.
Yes!!! It was funny the first time I read it in 2019, kind of. Since then it’s not been slightly funny but has gotten pretty irritating to me.
It’s just a phrase. Like “how are you” as a greeting. Nobody who say how are you wants to know how you are or gives a shit about any answer other than “fine thanks! how are you”. Just treat MBIC the same way, maybe invent your own responses, my sister in Buddha?
Nah I love it. That’s the bit, using it so nonchalantly sort of diminishes the expression. I don’t think anyone using the meme gives a fuck about a Christ either
Combine them and you have a golf course. It’s like park where everything has been killed and replaced with turf and only rich people are allowed to enjoy.
Golf! But it’s the only one.
Yo, this is Fuck Cars. We’re not advocating building Mega City One over here.
No, we’re advocating 15 minute neighborhoods, which could be part of a megacity, but don’t have to be. We are advocating higher density housing as that is better for everyone including the environment.
I just want my apartment complex to have a community garden man
We want that as well. Reclaim as much of the commons as we can, so that the rich aren’t allowed to monetize everything.
I’ve got 4 cars on my drive way and have run out of room. I do have a large patch of grass next to it, I could probably fit 6 cars there.
Do I purchase and store more vehicles on my grass or purchase more land to store my cars on, so I can protect my lawn?
My eighth of an acre is entirely clover, dandelions, and weeds. Eventually, I’ll get around to planting some vegetables, but my thumb is whatever the opposite of green is. I’ve started by trying to grow some herbs this spring, half of which are already dead.
Living with no HOA that forces grass on me FTW.
Can’t do much about having a car though. No public transportation anywhere near and work is twenty miles away. Believe me, I’d much much rather not drive.
Tbh, my favorite kind of gardening is the kind that thrives on neglect. I love making ecosystems that thrive on their own, without my constant input. There’s just something beautiful about seeing life thrive on its own.
Plant a bunch of trees, put down some mulch. Walk away for a year, with no worries. Once a year, add mulch. Enjoy providing habitat for birds and small mammals, plus the shade and privacy, for zero maintenance.
Look up mini-forest, micro-forest, tiny-forest, research. Crazy how a few trees changes a landscape for animals.
I definitely miss the birds at the last place I lived. There was a delightful married cardinal couple, various and sundry doves, and the occasional crow.
Now I’ve got a couple stray cats battling over the territory, neither of which is quite sure what to make of me.
I’ve also got possum bro. He just kinda hangs out and gives me a nod every once in a while.
Killing off the grass is how I finally got my garden started. The native plants could deal with the grass sucking up all the water it could. The garden plants couldn’t. Take a rototiller to your lawn, if you know about rainfall plains and patterns to create a reservoir for your garden plants. Grass and clover will absolutely steal all the water from all the other plants.
![[meme] Lawns and car storage — name a more wasteful use of land](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/c6a93d55-ab0b-4275-bd92-43931e7b7d77.jpeg){kind=link}