I plugged into ethernet (as wifi w/captive portal does not work for me). I think clearnet worked but I have no interest in that. Egress Tor traffic was blocked and so was VPN. I’m not interested in editing all my scripts and configs to use clearnet, so the library’s internet is useless to me (unless I bother to try a tor bridge).
I was packing my laptop and a librarian spotted me unplugging my ethernet cable and approached me with big wide open eyes and pannicked angry voice (as if to be addressing a child that did something naughty), and said “you can’t do that!”
I have a lot of reasons for favoring ethernet, like not carrying a mobile phone that can facilitate the SMS verify that the library’s captive portal imposes, not to mention I’m not eager to share my mobile number willy nilly. The reason I actually gave her was that that I run a free software based system and the wifi drivers or firmware are proprietary so my wifi card doesn’t work¹. She was also worried that I was stealing an ethernet cable and I had to explain that I carry an ethernet cable with me, which she struggled to believe for a moment. When I said it didn’t work, she was like “good, I’m not surprised”, or something like that.
¹ In reality, I have whatever proprietary garbage my wifi NIC needs, but have a principled objection to a service financed by public money forcing people to install and execute proprietary non-free software on their own hardware. But there’s little hope for getting through to a librarian in the situation at hand, whereby I might as well have been caught disassembling their PCs.
My first reaction is yeah, you don’t just plug into random Ethernet.
The wi-fi is likely a visitor network setup for guests to the library. That ethernet port could provide access to their private intranet, and be a security risk to the library. Worst case scenario, it could result in malware, ransomware, and/or millions of dollars in expenses to recover (on a library budget, that could mean permanently shutting down the library even).
After reading your post, I would say, no harm intended, just don’t do it again.
After reading your comments about intentionally being vague about ‘plugging in’ to lead the librarian to think you were asking to plug in a power cord, and not specifically meaning ethernet connection… yeah, you’re clearly in the wrong. Just be up front; if they say no, so be it. They may be able to direct you to a visitor ethernet plug-in, or maybe not. If this were an AITA thread, i’d say yes, YTA in this case.
Asking in an security community… I would assume some level of technical awareness, and you are likely well aware of network segmentation, and that no IT department would be happy about a guest plugging their laptop into random rj-45 jacks around the building. Maybe it’s not well designed, and that actually has access to firewall administration?
After reading your post, I would say, no harm intended, just don’t do it again.
You may be misunderstanding the thesis. This is not really about staying out of trouble. Or more precisely, as an activist up to my neck in trouble it’s about getting into the right trouble. The thesis is about this trend of marginalising people with either no phone and/or shitty wifi gear/software and a dozen or demographics of people therein who do not so easily give up their rights. It’s about exclusivity of public services funded with public money. Civil disobedience is an important tool for justice outside of courts.
The security matter is really about competency and cost. The main problem is likely in the requirements specification conveyed to the large tech firms that received the contract. From where I sit, they were simply told “give people wifi”, probably by people who don’t know the difference between wifi and internet. In which case the tech supplier should have been diligent and competent enough to ask “do you want us to exclude segments of the public who have no wifi gear and those without phones?”
How many times do we need to tell you that you can’t lie about your intentions and then expect people to respect your perceived “rights“? This is like anti-maskers who would walk into places with mask mandates intentionally and then take off their masks just to make a scene and record it for the Internet. You’re pot stirring.
Just ask like a normal human being. For all you know they would’ve said “right this way“ and shown you to a port. You walked in looking for trouble.
Also, it is a library… very real possibility they have actual computers you can use/borrow for people that cant use their wifi for whatever reason (such as not having a laptop/tablet/smartphone).
Idk what I read because it is so stupid.
it’s clearly there to be used, a lot of places have ethernet jacks for that…
the librarian is just a luddite and you probably had a black hoodie and a terminal open so she assumed you were selling fentanyl to pedophile ransomware communists…I’m not surprised. I know people who don’t even know what an ethernet cable is. I’ve worked enough IT to realize that a tangled mess of 6 cables can be as horrifying as a Predator to people. It doesn’t help that everything is slowly going to POE, POE+ and even ++ now so it’s doubling as power as well. In analog video days I could look at the back of a random device and instantly figure out it’s purpose. That’s rapidly becoming a rarity. For a worrisome section of the population, plugging in an ethernet cable is the equivalent of building a table or performing a back flip.
And when it comes to hacking, good god nobody knows anything. I remember we had a dozen students in high school (around 2000ish?) get suspended for “hacking” and really it was just that a section of the student body found a network storage location without any password protection and were using it as a flash drive on school grounds. Literally they just suspended anybody who signed their name on the homework assignments stored there.
The real crime was that drive had lunch pins for all the accounts in plain text to run their system, without a password!
Sounds like a her problem.
This sounds odd to me, unless you connected to an Ethernet port behind a desk or somehow forced open a network closet… They also might not like it if you disconnected one of the public computers to use its cable/port; otherwise if this was an open and public port, you used it as designed and the librarian probably has watched too many Hollywood hacking movies. I have to admit, I never thought of this as a way to bypass the captive portal (sorta just assumed everyone going through the public network would have to hit it, kinda of the equivalent to having everyone sign a liability waiver).
With that said, I can see some institutions not liking connections that aren’t part of the more traditional/commercial networking (but it doesn’t sound like the library took issue with your traffic, just the librarian didn’t like the PHY link you chose to use). For the SMS thing (I haven’t seen that used in a while, you might be able to use some sort of burner number app if they don’t filter them).
I have to admit, I never thought of this as a way to bypass the captive portal (sorta just assumed everyone going through the public network would have to hit it, kinda of the equivalent to having everyone sign a liability waiver).
That’s because if that library’s network was properly configured it would work exactly like your expectation.
I plugged into ethernet (as wifi w/captive portal does not work for me). I think clearnet worked but I have no interest in that. Egress Tor traffic was blocked and so was VPN. I’m not interested in editing all my scripts and configs to use clearnet, so the library’s internet is useless to me (unless I bother to try a tor bridge).
Yeah… Trying to bypass their security by using ethernet instead of Wi-Fi to use your own stuff that’s being blocked is tantamount to abusing the library’s services. Someone should let the IT staff know so they can properly block those services on ethernet as well.
They should just be disabling the ports, frankly. The overwhelming majority of visitors will never miss them. If you need to use a computer on an Ethernet connection because you can’t/won’t use the Wi-Fi, most libraries provide desktop stations for you to use.
Keep some Wi-Fi USB dongles in the drawer at the front desk for people whose Wi-Fi isn’t working, or the extreme edge case where somebody has some sort of device that can only use an ethernet connection, and for some reason they brought it to the library.
Yeah, I agree that’s the easiest path to take in properly securing it.
Someone should let the IT staff know so they can properly block those services on ethernet as well.
Someone should let the IT staff know that wi-fi does not work for everyone, including:
- People running free software whose wifi NIC has no free driver and firmware
- People running free software who ethically object to running the proprietary non-free driver and firmware their wifi NIC requires
- People without a mobile phone to perform the captive portal-mandated SMS verfication
- People with a mobile phone but who want to exercise their GDPR right to data minimization
- Pro-environment people who prefer not to spend 30 times more energy needed for wi-fi radios
- People who want the security of other wi-fi users not eavesdropping on their traffic by simply pointing a yagi antenna from a block away (on a network that blocks the VPNs that would protect them from that on wi-fi)
You’re welcome to use the library PCs (if available) or get your own ISP connection.
Yeah, this argument is bullshit once you actually know what you’re talking about instead of following some cult videos that teach you to repeat them.
Someone should let the IT staff know that wi-fi does not work for everyone, including:
HI there. I’m someone in IT for a Public Library so let me review these points.
People running a free software platform that lacks support for a wifi NIC that needs a proprietary driver and firmware
That’s a you and your hardware problem, not a public library IT problem. You need to purchase hardware that is adequately supported by your chosen Operating System.
People running free software who ethically object to running the proprietary non-free driver and firmware their wifi NIC requires
This is a you and your hardware problem. Buy hardware that is adequately supported by your chosen Operating System.
People without a mobile phone to perform the captive portal-mandated SMS verfication
This one is a semi-serious complaint however I’ve never seen a portal system where the Librarian’s didn’t have the ability to issue a day pass for use. Aside from that you sound like someone who should be technically able to stand up an ephemeral phone number for the purpose of receiving SMS.
People with a mobile phone but who want to exercise their GDPR right to data minimization
Same as above.
Pro-environment people who prefer not to spend 30 times more energy needed for wi-fi radios
What an absolutely petty complaint.
People who want the security of other wi-fi users not eavesdropping on their traffic by simply pointing a yagi antenna from a block away.
I’d bet that as soon as you enter a code your VPN stops being blocked. They’re not trying to block VPN they are preventing you from sidestepping their ToS.
I’ve dealt with Patrons like you before and the instant someone starts yammering at me about ClearNet / Tor I know exactly what kind of person I’m dealing with.
You selected your path for whatever reasons you chose and the inconveniences that come with that path are yours to deal with. Suck it up buttercup, you weren’t promised that a privacy respecting internet lifestyle would be easy or convenient.
That’s a you and your hardware problem, not a public library IT problem. You need to purchase hardware that is adequately supported by your chosen Operating System.
Forcing people to buy more hardware is yet another variation of discrimination against the poor. Imposed needless consumerism is also reckless from an environmental standpoint. If you choose not to step your competency up to the level needed to serve the public without costing them more money, you’re only getting off the hook in the view of right-wing conservatives who are happy to have library service cheapened at the expense of equal rights.
Not being “your problem” is simply a problem of an ill-defined contract that allows irresponsible policy.
This is a you and your hardware problem. Buy hardware that is adequately supported by your chosen Operating System.
It’s not a hardware problem. It’s an ethics problem, and the problem is on your part whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. If you lack the higher level of competency needed to support ethical consumers, you should either gain the competency you need or find another line of work.
This one is a semi-serious complaint however I’ve never seen a portal system where the Librarian’s didn’t have the ability to issue a day pass for use.
Not a single public library in my area has a day pass option as an alternative authentication. If the patron has no phone, the library helpless and the user is not getting online with their own device.
Aside from that you sound like someone who should be technically able to stand up an ephemeral phone number for the purpose of receiving SMS.
There is no way to get a phone or an active SIM chip gratis in my area. The only difference between a burner phone and a non-burner phone in my area is you quit using the burner phone early. It has all the same problems as a permanent phone. You can get a pinger number online, but it only works if you’re already online. Apart from that, your suggestion is absurd as an official policy in response to public complaint about phoneless people being officially excluded.
Same as above.
It fails here too, for the same reason.
What an absolutely petty complaint.
What an absolutely pathetic failure to support a claim to the contrary.
I’d bet that as soon as you enter a code your VPN stops being blocked. They’re not trying to block VPN they are preventing you from sidestepping their ToS.
This is not a /me/ problem. You are responding to a list of demographics of people who are excluded from a public service. If not every single person has a gratis VPN (and they don’t), this is a broken argument. To say every user must acquire a VPN because you cannot provide a means of access that thwarts the most trivial MitM possible is a reckless abandonment of duty.
I’ve dealt with Patrons like you before and the instant someone starts yammering at me about ClearNet / Tor I know exactly what kind of person I’m dealing with.
So your emotional bias adversely hinders your judgement and ability to service a diverse range of users. It shows.
You selected your path for whatever reasons you chose and the inconveniences that come with that path are yours to deal with. Suck it up buttercup, you weren’t promised that a privacy respecting internet lifestyle would be easy or convenient.
Inconveniences are borne out of the kind of incompetent infosec that you’re peddling. A competent tech firm can do this job without violating data minimisation principles and without violating Article 21 of the UDHR.
BTW if you’d plugged your laptop into one of my systems you’d have gotten vlan’d into the same Captive Portal System that the WiFi has which is precisely how any publicly available Ethernet port should function. Your little length of wires coated in vinyl with plastic shoved on the ends still wouldn’t have gotten you where you wanted to go.
And that would still be violating peoples’ Article 21 rights to equal access. Imposing a mobile phone is among the injustices I’ve mentioned. I would still favor the ethernet regardless of the captive portal for many of the reasons I’ve mentioned. In the very least it avoids discriminating against people without functioning wifi h/w.
I’ve dealt with Patrons like you before and the instant someone starts yammering at me about ClearNet / Tor I know exactly what kind of person I’m dealing with.
You selected your path for whatever reasons you chose and the inconveniences that come with that path are yours to deal with. Suck it up buttercup, you weren’t promised that a privacy respecting internet lifestyle would be easy or convenient.
I guess Meta, Google, Amazon and countless other companies are with you on this one for the ad and tracking riddled mass exploitation Internet of today.
I began my struggle with F/OSS and its drivers with Slackware V3 shortly after it’s release. I long ago memorized absolutely every argument you could possible come up with and have myself repeated many of them over the years. That doesn’t change the fact that Networks and Systems are not configured for your convenience and YOU are responsible for how your own damn hardware works.
Now get the hell off my lawn.
Now get the hell off my
lawnLAN.I really missed my opportunity on that one!
Now get the hell off my lawn.
We are in a public community on the open Internet here where the following is written in the sidebar :
- Be kind
Tor was created by the USA military and the USA government has funded with millions of dollars. Many years ago Tor had a negative word association to it. But not so much anymore. Countless volunteers run Tor nodes from home, and Tor is not that slow anymore as it used to. I use Tor myself because I strongly dislike all the tracking, snooping and scandals by large and even small companies. The Clearnet Internet has become a disastrous place :(
It’s a good point about the irrational Tor hostility. But note the more perverse absurdity with his comment: that a public library is “his lawn”. If his inability and unwillingness to equally serve the whole public would be just in the private sector, there would be no issue because everyone he disservices can refuse to do business with him.
What’s sickening here is he said “I’m someone in IT for a Public Library”. So he is operating a public service in an exclusive manner telling people /get off his lawn/, which was financed with public money. And ~7+ of 8 people are okay with that.
I can imagine that the guy wants to secure his network and is maybe paranoid about people breaking in which seems fair to me, and after all computers and networks involve subtle power structures as described in BOFH. I guess the “now get of my lawn!” remark is a typical and “normal” remark in some states or regions of the USA. Someone from the UK or Ireland could made say instead “sod off!” to end a conversation they think deserved to be stopped.
To be fair. That’s your ethernet jack and your security that you’re abusing.
have a principled objection to a service financed by public money forcing people to install and execute proprietary non-free software on their own hardware
You are on spot there, but sadly even legislators are far from understanding the reasons why this matters so much, let alone the general public.
Whatever security policy they have, it shouldn’t require you installing a random executable to your system. And it was flawed enough that it didn’t care to give your device access.
And by the way, it’s so awesome you carry an ethernet cable around!!
You need to really, deeply consider what your stance is when you’re painting libraries and librarians as the bad guys.
You’ll have to quote me on that because I do not recall calling them baddies. I have spotlighted an irresponsible policy and flawed implementation. It’s more likely a competency issue and unlikely a case of malice (as it’s unclear whether the administration is even aware that they are excluding people).
If they are knowingly and willfully discriminating against people without mobile phones, then it could be malice. But we don’t know that so they of course have the benefit of any doubt. They likely operate on the erroneous assumption that every single patron has a mobile phone and functional wifi.
You have, throughout your comments, repeatedly spoken down toward librarians and libraries. You might not be painting them as malicious, but you’re certainly not painting them as “trying their best” or “worth having an adult conversation with instead of misrepresenting my situation intentionally”.
You have, throughout your comments, repeatedly spoken down toward librarians and libraries.
Again, you’re not quoting. You’ve already been told it’s not the case. You need to quote. You replied to the wrong message.
but you’re certainly not painting them as “trying their best”
There are many librarians with varying degrees of motivation. I spoke to one yesterday that genuinely made an effort to the best of their ability. I cannot say the same for all librarians. When I describe a problem of being unable to connect, some librarians cannot be bothered to reach out to tech support, or even so much as report upstream that someone was unable to connect.
“worth having an adult conversation with instead of misrepresenting my situation intentionally”
This is a matter of being able to read people. I don’t just bluntly blurt out a request. I start the conversation with baby steps (borderline small talk) describing the issue to assess from their words, mood, and body language the degree to which they are likely to be accommodating whatever request I am building up to. Different people get a different conversation depending on the vibe I get from them.
I’m not writing a research paper, if you’re unable to identify the things you’ve said which align with the things I’ve described then that’s fair enough and perhaps we can end this interaction here.
It’s their network that they are offering as a service, if they say no then no it is.
Private libraries are quite rare. I think only one employer I worked for had an on-site private library where the assets are not publicly owned. It’s rare. Most libraries are public.
My post is about public libraries, which were financed with public money. It’s worth noting the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
Article 21
¶2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.You have the right to access the internet through WiFi like everyone else. So where’s the problem?
That “right” is exclusively available to people who:
- have a mobile phone
- who carry it with them
- who have working wifi hardware
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights has no such limitation on Article 21.
The UDHR is not a treaty, so it does not create any direct legal bindings. The article you quote may have been excluded, overwritten or rephrased in your jurisdiction.
The UDHR is not a treaty, so it does not create any direct legal bindings.
Sure, but where are you going with this? Legal binding only matters in situations of legal action and orthogonal to its application in a discussion in a forum. Human rights violations are rampant and they rarely go to The Hague (though that frequency is increasing). Human rights law is symbolic and carries weight in the court of public opinion. Human rights law and violations thereof get penalized to some extent simply by widespread condemnation by the public. So of course it’s useful to spotlight HR violations in a pubic forum. It doesn’t require a court’s involvement.
The judge who presided over the merits of the Israel genocide situation explained this quite well in a recent interview. If you expect an international court to single-handedly remedy cases before it, your expectations are off. The international court renders judgements that are mostly symbolic. But it’s not useless. It’s just a small part of the overall role of international law.
The article you quote may have been excluded, overwritten or rephrased in your jurisdiction.
I doubt it. It’s been a while since I read the exemptions of the various rights but I do not recall any mods to Article 21. The modifications do not generally wholly exclude an article outright. They typically make some slight modification, such as some signatories limiting free assembly (Art.20 IIRC) to /safe/ gatherings so unsafe gatherings can be broken up. I would not expect to see libraries excluded from the provision that people are entitled to equal access to public services considering there is also Article 27:
“Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.”
The European HR convocations take that even further iirc.
You are still citing the UDHR as it was law. It is not, so nobody needs to modify Article 21 to violate it as long as established law doesn’t recognize it.
If you really want to argue about general guidelines, the UDHR is inadequate because it’s just a draft. What you want is the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which is its main successor, and is at least a treaty and also ratified by most countries in the world.
Still, ratifying a treaty still doesn’t make it established law, it’s just an obligation to implement the treaty as best as is possible into your domestic jurisdiction. Failure to do so will be met with finger-waggling at the next UN meeting, so it’s more of an apparatus of peer pressure than anything else.
I have to say I didn’t downvote you as you’ve been civil and informative so far. But I’m not sure how to cite/quote from the UDHR as though it’s not law. I named the article and pasted the text. For me whether the enforcement machinery is in force doesn’t matter w.r.t to the merits of the discussion. From where I sit, many nations signed the UDHR because it has a baseline of principles worthy of being held in high regard. When the principles are violated outside the context of an enforcement body, the relevance of legal actionability is a separate matter. We are in a forum where we can say: here is a great idea for how to treat human beings with dignity and equality, and here that principle is being violated. There is no court in the loop. Finger wagging manifests from public support and that energy can make corrections in countless ways. Even direct consumer actions like boycotts. Israel is not being held to account for Gaza but people are boycotting Israel.
I guess I’m not grasping your thesis. Are you saying that if a solidly codified national law was not breached, then it’s not worthwhile to spotlight acts that undermine the UDHR principles we hold in high regard?
I see a lot of downvotes on your comments on this thread and I wonder if it’s due to differences in nationality/geography/jurisdiction. In the USA I know we give free smartphones with working Wi-Fi to people with low incomes as a part of the lifeline program. Some of the libraries I’ve been to even have staff on hand to help low income people find out about these sorts of benefits, and even help them sign up. Maybe they don’t have this sort of program where you’re from?
And I know most people DO carry their phones with them wherever they go these days assuming they haven’t forgotten it somewhere.
Am I missing something? To me, in my area, these limitations would be a choice the user has made.
I see that the relevant websites (FCC and lifelinesupport.org) both block Tor so you can’t be poor in need of the Lifeline and simultaneously care about privacy. Many parts of the US have extremely expensive telecom costs. I think I heard an avg figure of like $300/month (for all info svcs [internet,phone,TV]), which I struggle to believe but I know it’s quite costly nonetheless. One source says $300/month is the high end figure, not an avg. Anyway, a national avg of $144/month just for a mobile phone plan is absurdly extortionate.
About Lifeline:
Lifeline provides subscribers a discount on qualifying monthly telephone service, broadband Internet service, or bundled voice-broadband packages purchased from participating wireline or wireless providers. The discount helps ensure that low-income consumers can afford 21st century connectivity services and the access they provide to jobs, healthcare, and educational resources.
So they get a discount. But you say free? Does the discount become free if income is below a threshold? Do they get a free/discounted hardware upgrade every 2-3 years as well, since everyone is okay with the chronic forced obsolescence in the duopoly of platforms to choose from? In any case, I’m sure the program gets more phones into more needy hands, which would shrink the population of marginalized people. That’s a double edged sword. Shrinking the size of a marginalized group without completely eliminating it means fewer people are harmed. But those in that group are further disempowered by their smaller numbers, easier to oppress, and less able to correct the core of the problem: not having a right to be analog and be unplugged (which is an important component of the right to boycott).
This topic could be a whole Lemmy community, not just a thread. In the US, you have only three carriers: AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile. I’ve seen enough wrongdoing by all 3 to boycott all 3. I would not finance any them no matter how much money I have. T-Mobile is the lesser of evils but it’s wrong to be forced to feed any of the three as an arbitrary needless precondition to using the library’s public wifi. It’s absolutely foolish that most people support that kind of bundling between public and private services.
US govs do not (AFAIK) yet impose tech on people. I think every gov service in the US has an analog option, including cash payment options. That’s not the case in many regions outside the US. There are already govs that now absolutely force you to complete some government transactions online, along with electronic payments which imposes bank patronisation, even if you boycott the banks for investing in fossil fuels and private prisons. And if you don’t like being forced to use their Google CAPTCHA (which supports Google, the surveillance advertiser who participates in fossil fuel extraction), that’s tough. Poor people are forced to use a PC (thus the library) to do public sector transactions with the gov, as are a segment of elderly people who struggle to use the technology. There is also a segment of tech people who rightfully object, precisely because they know enough about how info traverses information systems to see how privacy is undermined largely due to loss of control (control being in the wrong hands). It’s baffling how few people are in that tech segment.
So the pro-privacy tech activists are united with the low-tech elderly and the poor together fighting this oppression (called “digital transformation”) which effectively takes away our boycott power and right to choose who we do business with in the private sector. A divide and conquer approach is being used because we don’t have a well-organised coalition. Giving the poor cheaper tech and giving assistance to the elderly is a good thing but the side effect is enabling the oppression to go unchallenged. When really the right answer in the end is to not impose shitty options in the first place. It’s like the corp swindle of forced bundling (you can only get X if you also take Y). You should be able to get public wifi without a mobile phone subscription.
The UDHR prohibits discrimination on the basis of what property you have. The intent is to protect the poor, but the protection is actually rightfully bigger in scope because people who willfully opt not to have property are also in the protected class.
It’s all quite parallel to Snowden’s take. The masses don’t care about privacy due to not really understanding it.
“Ultimately, arguing that you don’t care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don’t care about free speech because you have nothing to say.” ― Edward Snowden
The idea that activists need both free speech and privacy in order to fight for everyone’s rights is lost on people making the /selfish/ choice to disregard privacy. All those mobile phone users who don’t give a shit about mobile phones being imposed on everyone are missing this concept. The choice to have a mobile phone is dying. It’s gradually and quietly becoming an unwritten mandate.
Banking is also becoming bound to having a mobile phone. There are already banks who will not open account for those without a mobile phone. So we are losing the option to have a bank account but not a mobile phone.
I see a lot of downvotes on your comments on this thread and I wonder if it’s due to differences in nationality/geography/jurisdiction.
Guess I should answer this. The enormous class of people with mobile phones (likely 100% of those in this channel) are happy to be in the included group and amid any chatter about expanding the included group to include those without a phone (a segment they do not care about), they think: “that extra degree of egalitarian policy to support a more diverse group will cost more and yield nothing extra to me; yet that extra cost will be passed on to me.”
Which is true. And very few people among them care about boycott power because it’s rarely used by willful consumerist consumers of tech and telecom svc. But the ignorance is widespread failure to realise that as mobile phones become effectively a basic requirement for everyone, the suppliers will have even less incentive to win your business. The duopolies and triopolies can (and will) increase prices and reduce service quality as a consequence of that stranglehold. Most people are too naïve to realise the hold-out non-mobile phone customers are benefiting them even from the selfish standpoint of the mobile phone customers. And the fact that they are paying an invisible price with their data doesn’t occur to most people either, or how that loss of privacy disempowers them.
They will pay more in the end than if they had supported diversity and egalitarian inclusion.
Bruh it’s library Internet access, not a human rights violation
You need to read Article 21. And as you read it, keep in mind it’s a public library.
Libraries usually have computers available for use.
You are the one being obtuse.
You can use it but on their terms. Your privacy doesnt mean anything to them, they are protecting themselves. Captive portal is likely making you agree to not abuse the service.
Also you’re choosing not to participate which is fair but they don’t need to support that.
You can use it but on their terms.
Not without a phone.
Captive portal is likely making you agree to not abuse the service.
Nothing about a captive portal requires wifi. There are many ways to get that agreement. Neglecting to make the agreement part of the ToS when you become a member is just reckless.
Their terms require a phone so yes, on their terms. Why would they make an exception for anyone?
Their captive portal requires wifi and thats all that matters. And why would they want to deal with paper agreements for WiFi?
You don’t have to be a member to use WiFi, someone else could have given you the password if there even is one, so ya even if you did agree when signing up it would make sense to still require that.
I implement these kind of setups including a couple libraries and while I would have Ethernet ports available if within budget, I would not allow you to bypass captive portal, the agreement, or traffic filtering. I don’t care what you are doing but I am required to try not to allow easy access to questionable content. If someone is doing something illegal it’s gonna involve the library if you get caught (that’s why the phone number but maybe they are just being shitty with it). Not worth the risk. Also a lot of those decisions are made by a board so being upset with the staff won’t accomplish anything. Wifi is cheap, pulling cable can be very costly in comparison and depending on building type can be hard, damaging or, not feasible. Those ports could also be broken because people don’t respect shit, that could also be the reason for their reaction.
This is all I got for you, good luck but if you want your privacy you’re likely going to have to go somewhere else.
Their terms require a phone so yes, on their terms.
I keep a copy of everything I sign. The ToS I signed on one library do not require a mobile phone. It’s an ad hoc implementation that was certainly not thought out to the extent of mirroring the demand for a mobile phone number into the agreement. And since it’s not in the agreement, this unwritten policy likely evaded the lawyer’s eyes (who likely drafted or reviewed the ToS).
Why would they make an exception for anyone?
Because their charter is not: “to provide internet service exclusively for residents who have mobile phones”.
And why would they want to deal with paper agreements for WiFi?
Paper agreements:
- do not discriminate (you cannot be a party to a captive portal agreement that you cannot reach)
- are more likely to actually be read (almost no one reads a tickbox agreement)
- inherently (or at least easily) give the non-drafting party a copy of the agreement for their records. A large volume of text on a tiny screen is unlikely to even be opened and even less likely to save it. Not having a personal copy reduces the chance of adherence to the terms.
- provide a higher standard of evidence whenever the agreement is litigated over
You don’t have to be a member to use WiFi, someone else could have given you the password if there even is one
That’s not how it works. The captive portal demands a phone number. After supplying it, an SMS verification code is sent. It’s bizarre that you would suggest asking a stranger in a library for their login info. In the case at hand, someone would have to share their mobile number, and then worry that something naughty would be done under their phone number, and possibly also put that other person at risk for helping someone circumvent the authentication (which also could be easily detected when the same phone number is used for two parallel sessions).
If someone is doing something illegal it’s gonna involve the library if you get caught (that’s why the phone number but maybe they are just being shitty with it). Not worth the risk.
Exactly what makes it awkward to ask someone else to use their phone.
It’s disgusting that you endorse discriminating against people
If you’re not trolling - poorly - then you obviously have massive issues. I would encourage you to seek out some help for those.
Then go sue them over their lack of Your Particular Setup-compatible wifi, I guess.
If it was a publicly available Ethernet port, it was likely for public use. The fact that she thought it was malicious speaks to ignorance on her part, not yours.
Or you could just ask them to avoid confusion as it takes 5 seconds and they may have a way of doing things that you don’t know about? It’s respectful and it potentially saves you a lot of hassle if it doesn’t work and you need to troubleshoot it.
Yeah. For all we know, there could be a sign in/out thing at the desk for if you use ethernet - She DID think OP was taking one of the library’s cables after all, which implies the public has access, possibly through a sign in/out system
I’ve asked librarians a full range of tech questions about what works, what’s blocked, what’s allowed… they /never/ have a clue because of outsourcing. Their guess is as good as mine. In the 90s, I would say you are spot on. Librarians should have answers. Things have evolved to where the policy is decided non-transparently, it’s outsourced to an unreachable company, and librarians are simply as uninformed as the public. Trial and error. If you read the AUPs it never says Tor is banned at libraries, for example, but they simply block it. Experimentation is the way people get answers in my area.
So knowing that librarians don’t have deep tech info, or even basic tech info, and that they also cannot escalate questions, talking to them is really where time is wasted.
Even ignoring that, if internet via a wired ethernet connection isn’t an option they provide for whatever reason… their network infrastructure shouldn’t allow the connection anyway. It should be blocked as an unknown device on the network end, regardless if someone plugs into the network.
Yeah, having services blocked on Wi-Fi and not ethernet just tells me that their IT staff didn’t properly configure the network in public areas properly. That ethernet port should have been disabled, physically locked, or properly configured to use the public network like the Wi-Fi does.
Exactly, and let’s give them the benefit of the doubt since we don’t know. The librarian or assistant helping OP probably just doesn’t know much about the IT stuff other than how to help people get on the wifi. And it is entirely possible that they’re NEVER seen anyone even try the port before, that’s not common at all. Actually managing the IT infrastructure at that level is almost surely NOT part of their job.
WiFi has been included in essentially everything for over a decade. I mean even ignoring laptops having Wifi way before mobile devices, even going back to the origin of smartphones for the masses, the original iPhone had Wifi back in 2007, that’s 17 years ago.
Oh I’ve got nothing against how the librarians handled it. I’m more concerned that their IT staff failed to properly shield the library from liabilities like OP.
- Most folks will probably freak out when they see a terminal window (“DOS box”) on a computer.
- Most folks in my country have no idea that there is something else than WhatsApp as alternative to SMS.
- Whenever I’ve tried explaining to people that stuff on their website violates privacy or when I try to explain why they are having email delivery problems almost always results in permanent silence or disbelief.
Technology appears to be a scare factor for a lot of people. But in this case the librarian maybe thought that Ethernet was only for their qualified IT department to use.
Most folks will probably freak out when they see a terminal window (“DOS box”) on a computer.
Many many moons ago I was working at a small mom and pop operation that used ancient PCs to run their registers. The entirety of the front end ran on a 3.5" floppy. One night after closing, I exited to the CLI and opened edit. I typed in “HELP, STEVE BROKE ME” and went to the back to count my drawer. The shift manager had a proper shit fit.
“What are you editing?!? If you break this machine the boss is going to have your head, it’ll cost thousands to have someone come out and fix it!”
I calmly exited back to CLI and ran the front end exe. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The reality despite what you or i might do, is that 99% of people don’t carry around an ethernet or hardwire in when there is available wifi.
The library might be public, but it’s still a good idea to communicate your intent or obtain permission prior to using someone else’s network in away they might deem to be unexpected.
“Do you have ethernet or wired internet?” is actually a common library question and the response from whoever works the front desk will likely tell you everything you need to know.
“Do you have ethernet or wired internet?” is actually a common library question and the response from whoever works the front desk will likely tell you everything you need to know.
Would you trust the reply somebody like the librarian in the OP gave you? Seems like the sort of person who would refuse to admit to any lack of knowledge and just bluster.
Yes, because it seems in this instance the answer to the question is “no, please don’t plug into the ports you find.”
If it’s a supported thing, the librarian may have been less blustery.
It’s kind of all that matters though. We don’t need to trust her - we need her acceptance of the act for which she is the gatekeeper of. If we don’t have it - trust over what she said is irrelevant since we don’t even have the basic trust over the act.
As far as people I’d trust to not just make shit up, I’d say Librarian, aka, professional fucking researcher is high on the list.
That pretty much depends on where in the world you are, FYI. Librarian == professional fucking researcher is not a thing in Asia.
Do you trust every one-sided story to be entirely accurate of all details?
And what does trust have to do with it? Can we use Ethernet here? If the person says no, would you just walk around the building until you found a port and plugged in?
Do you trust every one-sided story to be entirely accurate of all details?
No, but for the sake of discussion in this thread, that is the scenario we’re all going by. We’re not rendering a legal judgement here, we’re discussing the situation as described.
In a public library, I would fully expect public-facing ethernet ports, especially in sitting / working areas, to be available for public use. I’m not sure why they would be there otherwise. And if they’re no longer meant for public use, it would be on the library IT staff to have disabled those ports.
what does trust have to do with it?
Because I don’t trust non-IT-savvy people to even properly understand the question. I’ve met way too many people with no technical clue who refuse to admit to any sort of lack of knowledge when it’s extremely obvious.
If the LIBRARIAN doesn’t understand this as a service the library offers - then they don’t offer it - or if you think they’re wrong you need to have an adult conversation that they do and that it should be ok. It’s weird to just assume you can go around sticking your cat5e into other peoples ethernet ports like that.
If you don’t trust it to be entirely accurate then it is ridiculous to act like it is “for the sake of discussion.” Healthy skepticism is absolutely warranted
We could discuss all sorts of hypotheticals, including where there’s a secret supervillain base under the library and they’re about to assassinate OP for jacking into their network. It’s pointless because we’re not discussing an event we have any way of obtaining any other information about other than what OP has provided.
Well, OP side of the story isn’t even that vindicating either. The dude literally admitted in one comment that he all but lied to them about what he was doing, yet he’s mad when they were upset he wasn’t clear with his intentions and started plugging in cat5 without any heads up.
And what does trust have to do with it?
I think they mean trust in the librarian to genuinely know the policy and what should work. They tend not to in this case because ethernet has become obscure enough to be an uncommon question, if ever.
Another library had ethernet ports all down the wall next to desks. They were dead and no one used them. It was obvious that the librarian had no clue about whether the ports were even supposed to function. When I said they are dead and asked to turn them on or find out what’s wrong, they then figured that if the ports don’t work, it must be intentional. So the librarian’s understanding of the policy was derived from the fact that they were dysfunctional. Of course if they were intended to work but needed service, ethernet users are hosed because the librarian’s understanding of policy is guesswork. There is no proper support mechanism.
I asked a librarian at another library: I need to use Tor. Is it blocked? I need to know before I buy a membership. Librarian had no idea. They just wing it. They said test it. Basically, if it works, then it’s acceptable. The functionality becomes the source of policy under the presumption that everything is functioning as it should.
Since ethernet has been phased out, modern devices no longer include an ethernet NIC, and there are places to plug into A/C with no ethernet nearby, the librarians and the public are both conditioned to be unaware of ethernet. So the answer will only be either: no or test and see.
Dude ffs grow up and just ask in the future. This whole post and defensive posture is so childish. You literally admitted in another comment that you were deliberately opaque about your intentions in order to avoid a fringe concern, which then brought about the result you were trying to avoid.
Like seriously dude. You borderline lied because of a fear of people who are “Ethernet-hostile”? And then got upset when they didn’t know what you were doing when you purposely deceived them? Are you kidding me?
OP also wanted to know before “buying a membership”. In what world do you buy a membership to a library?
It’s such a bizarre post.
Would you trust the reply somebody like the librarian in the OP gave you?
I mean, if the answer is “no” would you just go around plugging into random Ethernet ports until you found one that works? Just because you don’t “trust” the librarian who gave you the answer? That sounds like a fast track to getting trespassed (or at least banned from using their public internet altogether) for abuse of services.
The library isn’t required to provide free Ethernet. They aren’t even required to provide free wifi. But they choose to do so because they recognize that wifi is a big reason people will come to a library to spend time. Which is sort of the whole point of the library. So providing free wifi goes hand-in-hand with the library’s ultimate mission.
But that wifi is provided on an as-is basis, because they can’t guarantee things like 100% uptime, good speeds, or any kind of troubleshooting. And any potential ethernet connection would also be as-is. And in this case, “as-is” could easily translate to “not available to the public at all.” Because again, the library isn’t required to provide any of it.
Or, and hear me out, approach everything with hostility \s
Tbf, that does get you more upvotes
That’s why I carry an ethernet cable and a shillelagh.
Ethernet cable is the best cantrip, shillelagh is a close second
Whip them with the cable while shouting “ELDRITCH BLAST!”
I have been trying this for a while. You end up alone a lot.
Instructions unclear. Am friendly 100% of the time irl and still alone.
When I entered I spoke to a different librarian about the locked PC room (due to a holiday or something). They said I could use wifi but need to give a phone number to a captive portal, which I already knew. I said is it okay if I plug in over there by the catalog PCs? They said yes. Revealing what I mean by plugging in, well, i was vague for a reason. I know the population has become ethernet-hostile¹ so indeed asking for forgiveness is better than asking for permission in this situation.
¹ Another library in the area has ethernet ports but they are decoys. I asked the librarian what the problem is, why they are disabled, and whether we can turn them on. Librarian was helpless, and said “use wifi”, which didn’t work for me for different reasons than the other library. But the librarian basically said in so many words “not our problem… you can use wifi.” At another library, I was able to connect but Tor was blocked. I tried to get support from the librarian. They had no clue but were also unwilling to lead me to someone who could give support. The way it works around here is security gets outsourced to some unreachable tech giant, and the librarians are rendered helpless. If the SSID does not appear, they can send an email to say it’s down, and that’s about the full extent of their capability.
Another library in the area has ethernet ports but they are just decoys (dead ports). I asked the librarian what the problem is, why they are disabled, and whether we can turn them on.
They’re not decoys, they’re just not patched. Because we don’t generally patch anything that’s not going to be in use. Also because some rando will probably attempt to plug their nasty ass laptop into it, which is also why we block port intrusions.
They’re not decoys, they’re just not patched.
Equipment isn’t free, after all, especially if you’re a library.
I wouldn’t want you on my network either to be fair. People like you should be kept in an isolated area of the network with a proxy pointing all your traffic to resolve Italkaloadofshit.com
Jumped up little twat.
I know right? Everyone cheering them on, meanwhile I’m reading the OP and find them to be pretentious and maladjusted. Who talks about the ‘clearnet’ like it’s the internet of normies?
Why didn’t you tell this librarian that you’d asked another librarian and they said it was okay to plug in? Why was none of this included in the original post?
The librarian who said it was okay to plugin (which they likely understood to mean plugin an A/C power cord) was young, not as senior as the edgy librarian. I’m not going to take down a kid and get them in trouble for not picking apart what it means when someone asks if they can “plug-in”. What would the point be? I didn’t need a defense. I got scolded and was walking out. Police were not called and I was not detained. And if that had happened, I would have exercised my right to remain silent anyway.
You sound insufferable. You used vague wording to justify not using your phone to get internet, and act like child when you get caught. They’re not hostile to Ethernet, they’re hostile to you and your behaviour.
Great example of getting mad at a bitch eating crackers.
I merely unplugged my ethernet cable from the wall. I didn’t get hostile. I was calm. And because I was calm, the librarian became calm.
Could I be in the wrong? No, it must be literally everyone else in this entire thread / national library network.
Grow up. You set out to get in trouble, you got yourself in trouble, no one is impressed.
Could I be in the wrong? No, it must be literally everyone else in this entire thread / national library network.
Is your position so weak that you need to resort to a bandwagon fallacy?
Grow up.
and an ad hominem?
Many companies offering free wifi have a private ethernet network that’s not meant for guests. You don’t just plug into some company’s ethernet port, that’s just weird.
The reason I actually gave her was that that I run a free software based system and the wifi drivers or firmware are proprietary so my wifi card doesn’t work¹
Lol, no wonder you got the “I’m not surprised” reaction.
It’s not the librarians issue to worry about. It’s the IT team supporting your library. If there wasn’t a sign that said “not for customer use”, then it’s fine.
