A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
The car, launched last year by Chinese automaker BYD, sells for around $12,000 in China, but drives well and is put together with craftsmanship that rivals U.S.-made electric vehicles that cost three times as much. A shorter-range version costs under $10,000.
Tariffs on imported Chinese vehicles probably will keep the Seagull away from America’s shores for now, and it likely would sell for more than 12 grand if imported.
But the rapid emergence of low-priced EVs from China could shake up the global auto industry in ways not seen since Japanese makers exploded on the scene during the oil crises of the 1970s. BYD, which stands for “Build Your Dreams,” could be a nightmare for the U.S. auto industry.
“Any car company that’s not paying attention to them as a competitor is going to be lost when they hit their market,” said Sam Fiorani, a vice president at AutoForecast Solutions near Philadelphia. “BYD’s entry into the U.S. market isn’t an if. It’s a when.”
I’ve seen enough QA issues with most of the Chinese EVs I would highly doubt any of them make it to the USA for consumer sale at any scale. Some have overheating issues, panels fall off, cheap seat belts, uncomfortable seats, sizing issues (too small for larger Americans), goofy AC vents that blow weak when pointed downward and high when pointed at your face but don’t allow for other adjustments.
I mean at those prices you don’t expect too much quality. Unlike Teslas that are poorly built but priced like the aren’t
BYD has been making buses and work trucks for the US market for years. I’ve only had a ride on a few BYD buses, but they seem to be quality.
Good to hear they’ve had some success in the US, but I do worry about the quality of their consumer products. Too many companies can’t translate success in onr section of a market into another section.
I really want a small EV.
I agree with many of these points, but have two thoughts here. First, the same was true of many items being produced in China in the past, but quality control got better and honestly most of the products you can buy for a reasonable price are partly or wholly made in China. Second, Tesla is a good example of a US based company with many of the same issues. Loose panels, door handles that fall off, accelerators that get stuck, and so on. Bad engineering is not only available in Mandarin.
I hope they can produce a good quality electric car and help accelerate the transition.
1000% this.
This article is fuckin ridiculous. There hasn’t been a Chinese auto manufacturer that is even CLOSE.
A electric car that is not a SUV? I am in!!! Here in Canada the only option for EV are Prius and SUV. No small EV car under 20k. I say bring them on!! Otherwise I will continue to buy juices from arabian country.
Leverage your precious free market capitalism and compete, assholes. It’s not a threat, it’s an opportunity.
So, there’s a guy Silicon Valley Billionaire named Peter Thiel who released a book back in 2014 called “Zero to One”, in which he advocates for the monopoly system and claims any good businessman ultimately seeks to corner the market.
The US car market has been consolidating over the last 40 years, in an effort to cartelize and ultimately monopolize the automotive industry. We’ve passed a host of regulations and taxes that compel foreign manufacturers to build and assemble cars domestically, to partner with US car firms, and to absorb parts of the market American firms don’t want to occupy (US firms have functionally given up making small cars - almost everything is a truck or an SUV now). And we’ve unleashed our investment banks on East Asian industries, guaranteeing financial control of the largest firms in Korea, Japan, The Phillipines, and Taiwan via our international system of credits and debits.
The goal was never free markets, it was captured revenue streams. As we enter a new high surveillance age, vehicles are increasingly part of the always-on Internet Of Things information network used to continuously monitor anyone with enough money to afford a cellular device.
Excising firms like Huawei, ByteDance, and now BYD from the US marketplace is about cementing that captured state of the American economy and tightening the surveillance network. These are absolutely perceived of as threats, because they don’t integrate into our controlled networks. Until Chinese businesses are willing to submit to Five-Eyes surveillance and the Chicago School Economics of the New York banks, they’re not welcome in our country.
It’s not hard to beat “US craftsmanship”, did the writer saw anything about the cybertruck?
These kind of companies pop up from time to time. Only Tesla and Rivian have been mildly successful. All the small car projects were always vaporware.
BYD was founded in 1995.
They didn’t make their first car until 05’ and they took over production of that from another company.
They have been making all electric cars for a few years now. There is no way that they can import them to the u.s./UK) Europe/Aus etc. and keep the same price point. There isn’t going to be any way for them to pass safety standards.
A tiny, low-priced electric car called the Seagull has American automakers and politicians trembling.
Hyperbole as rhetorical device is getting exhausting and makes me extremely skeptical.
This whole article is just paid marketing. Some AP journalist didn’t tear this car down and analyze its build quality.
Specially when you see the stats and it has a 190-250 mile range and a max speed of 81 MPH. And even the article points out they cut costs with things like having only one windshield wiper.
it has a 190-250 mile range and a max speed of 81 MPH
That’s further than I’d drive before a 20 minute rest stop, and faster than it’s legal to drive anywhere in the US, except for Texas State Highway 130.
And even the article points out they cut costs with things like having only one windshield wiper.
As opposed to the Cybertruck, which has a revolutionary, but very expensive, design featuring only one windshield wiper.
I don’t think comparing it to cybertruck is really a win. I could be in a bubble, but I hear nothing but terrible things about them.
Also, anecdotally, going on long family trips in my van, I frequently do 350 miles between stops on 900 mile trips. I’d say 80 is a typical speed on the Ohio turnpike, but I’d be a little worried about driving that thing pedal to the floor for 2-3 hours straight (no worries though, it’ll never get that range at full speed).
That said, hey if this car meets your needs I’m all for that. Everyone should have options. I would consider buying one for my kids when they start driving as long as it’s safe in accidents.
Yeah here in the uk there’s plenty of good charging points, woodland trust and national trust are putting them in at a lot of locations so I could plan a relaxing walk in the woods with my journey if I ever needed to go more than 150 miles, I think that would be really nice.
Supermarkets have tave them too, so I could plan getting the shopping I need for the trip while it charges, this would allow me to avoid predatory pricing at garages too.
I just looked on a road distance map and it’s about where I would normally stop for a break, I’ve done longer drives but only rarely and I can’t think of a time an excuse to stop for a walk in the woods wouldn’t have been welcomed.
Oh and I only have one wiper but it was made by Hyundai so I guess it gets a pass lol
It also doesn’t meet US auto safety standards.
Cybertruck is a bad comparison, everyone already knows that thing is a steaming pile of hot garbage.
I stopped reading there.
Thanks for letting us know.
You’re welcome
The Big Three have already had Biden’s ear for a while on this, which is why he’s quadrupling tariffs on Chinese EVs this week. Source
What? The big three are trying to rig the game in their favor again? I’m very surprised! …not really, it’s business as usual from them.
Cars which won’t pass inspection in the US and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.
and are only sold in China are no threat to anything.
The export model, the Dolphin Mini, is expected in Europe in 2025.
When I post a comment that mentions Europe I keep that in mind.
Are you suggesting that there is a material difference of minimal testing standard between the EU and the USA?
Capital interests might have something to say about it in the US. No way they’re letting the government allow those in.
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They still have regulations and certain standards need to be met. I think it’s set by the NHTSA.
Unless they’re over 25 years old. But then there’s state laws for that too. I just want my kei truck.
The seagull ev being discussed is not 25 years old.
Where as the States with no inspection are impoverished shit holes, I stand by my, ‘no threat’.
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Where as the States with no inspection are impoverished shit holes, I stand by my, ‘no threat’.
You don’t live in reality.
That would include Michigan, which is where they design a lot of US domestic cars.
Any new vehicle sold in the US needs to pass NHTSA standards. We’re not talking about emissions testing.
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I would say no at the prices they’re selling for in China. The crackdown is due to the massive subsidies being pumped into these manufacturers by the Chinese government which would make it impossible for any other manufacturer to compete with them since they’re selling them below cost.
This may surprise you but US manufacturers count on a lot of income from selling outside the US. They’re all global conglomerates. Even looking through your roses colored glasses, do you really think legacy manufacturers will do well when they lose all of their global sales?
That’s false. The same car is sold in Mexico & Brazil and probably other countries as well
Two other countries with extremely lax safety standards.
I don’t see a problem here. If the US auto makers are so worried, they should buy a few of them, copy their secrets, and sell them at a marked down price.
Turnabout is fair play, after all.The problem is the companies in China are backed by government funding that allows them to operate at a loss. To be clear, no governments should be spending public funds on propping up automotive companies. It’s a move to try and manipulate the market.
The problem is the companies in China are backed by government funding that allows them to operate at a loss.
So are the Big Three, every time they fail to see what’s in front of their noses and get into trouble.
And they are setup for another fail right now, nothing but suvs on their lots and realistically gas has nowhere to go but up again.
Should’ve let them fall last time instead of the big bailouts.
nothing but suvs on their lots
Not true. They also have trucks
Who are the Big Three to you? Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep is owned by a Scandanavian company.
If that were actually the case wouldn’t we want them sold here at a loss so we could drain resources from the Chinese government.
They’d prefer to sell you a giant SUV or truck with massive profit margins and so they can continue to flout emissions standards.
This is an EV. There isn’t any emissions to be concerned about. At least not from the car itself.
Right, but it’s easier to continue to flout those standards than to build a high quality and affordable EV, with comparable profit margins. And the marketing is easier (“You’re not a real man without this giant truck!”).
They sell what buyers want. Look at sales numbers of small cars versus everything else.
Buyers do not want them, at least not anymore
They’ve been saying that axing the small sedan was to put money into EV. Seems they lied to pocket it, but we get nothing because free market capitalism is bullshit.
That article simply states the sales of the Dodge Ram and Ford F150 were down last quarter and makes no mention of any other segment or manufacturer. Dodge hasn’t made a small sedan since 2016 and Ford hasn’t made one since 2020
Huh, and I haven’t bought a vehicle from either since before then. What an amazing coincidence!
They built pretty shitty cars anyways so its no great loss
So small imported EVs aren’t actually a threat, then?
They are a threat when they’re sold well below cost due to the Chinese government’s massive subsidies which make it impossible for any other non-Chinese manufacturer in the world to compete with them.
Sounds like what buyers want is cheap cars then.
Yeah just like they want cheap products when Walmart comes to town and before too long the local economy is in the crapper as all the town’s revenue gets funneled to Arkansas.
What you’re advocating for is a race to the bottom just so you can buy one (maybe two!) new car(s) instead of an affordable used car like most people do. Let China sell their cars here with the same subsidies that every other company qualifies for on a level playing field.
Don’t forget our big three are just chomping at the bit to get in on the subscription model. Oh, you want ‘good’ brakes, well that’s $19.99/month. And there’s no ‘secrets’ to the chinese cars, I am willing to bet that they are just selling them at a loss. It’s not like they have to report real earnings to anyone.
I saw an article somewhere on lemmy recently that had some commentary from an American tear-down r&d type shop that said they think BYD makes a small profit on them
Very interesting. But the cynic in me says that even if we could tear it down and learn from it, we would manage to negate the savings with other costs. If they are making a profit, even if it’s tiny, that would still negate the tin foil hat people from being able to say they are just using them in infiltrate our nation with their spying and devious ways. Well one would think, but tin foil hat people will find a way to work around that, because what’s the best way to hide that you are infiltrating our nation then making it look like you are making a tiny profit. (Taps forehead…)
They are just trying to kill the entire car industry. Which, at this point I could give a shit about. Car manufacturer seem to think that a car should be an investment… Except it depreciates.
Personally I’m not sure I would want that car as my only vehicle because I only have space for one car, but if I get a bigger place with a two car garage I would definitely be interested in a small electric car that doesn’t break my budget. I would probably use it 1/5 trips.
Someone has to pay for the R&D to make EV’s possible. So far, that’s not BYD. It’s been US and European countries.
I don’t want a Chinese car but at the same time if American automakers are going to continue refusing to make affordable electric cars and only give massive SUVs and trucks as our gas options then it seems like that’s pretty much the choice we’ll be left with.
Edit: if this frightens the Biden administration then they need to find a way to put pressure on American manufacturers to make some decent vehicles.
I’m really not a fan of China, but I’m inclined to agree. We need smaller, more affordable vehicles. SUVs are antiquated, and trucks are largely decorative for most of the population. We need smaller, lighter vehicles. Though we also should be investing much more into mass transit rather than (largely redundant) highways and roads anyways, as it’s a huge waste of taxpayer money. Keep the key highways, build rail to reduce reliance on shit we shouldn’t really be rebuilding anyways. A lot of highways are going to be hitting the end of their useful lives soon, anyways, and require rebuilds.
Okay but how’s the safety, reliability, and build quality? Good, or Chinesium?
Just want to remind people that BYD has been in the American market since 2011. They’ve been involved with building industrial vehicles like trucks and buses.
OK but let’s talk about the practical thing, how do I, a random American, get one?
How do you, an average American, purchase an anti-worker product created by an adversary government? Simple, you move to China along with the rest of the American CEOs.
Anti worker. Riiight.
That’s just you speaking the Big Three’s mantra. If they’d gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn’t need Big Brother to run to their aid.
This is no different than what happened in the 70’s, so obviously they never learned their lesson then. This round, it’s time they did.
Anti worker. Riiight.
Are you seriously trying to make the claim that a Chinese auto worker is doing as well as a UAW member? If you are I want proof, if not then what are you talking about?
If they’d gotten off their rich asses and developed the tech for cheap, well-built EVs sooner they wouldn’t need Big Brother to run to their aid.
You realize it’s “cheap” in China because their Government subsidizes it and the manufacturers abuse their employees, right?
This round, it’s time they did.
I have no love for the American Auto Industry but this idea that BYD or any other Chinese “New Energy” vehicle is competing on anything like a level playing field is ludicrous. They are cheap because they pay their workers like dogshit, they treat their workers like dogshit, they have near zero environmental safety regulations, and they have near zero environmental regulations hell. 2/3rds of their electricity is produced by burning coal!
Lusting after a cheap BYD product just because you despise American Auto Manufacturers is literally cutting of your own nose in order to spite your face.
literally cutting of your own nose
“Literally”? Really? People lusting after BYD products have no noses now?
That’s the only thing you respond to?
US government right now is very heavily subsidizing EVs as well. It’s not just the Chinese government. For my purchase, the direct incentives alone were $11,500 (and that doesn’t count the tens of billions in indirect subsidies) - if a legacy manufacturer could make an EV for even double the cost of BYD, I’d buy it since my cost would be the same
I’ll give you higher wages and move the goalposts toward you to account for it …… let’s say double the price. Where is my flood of EVs from legacy manufacturers for no more than double the price of Chinese manufacturers?
US government right now is very heavily subsidizing EVs as well.
What you refer to as “heavily” (~15B across four years) is what China spent per year every year from 2009 through 2022, for a total of 173 Billion dollars. Their latest package, announced last September, will have them spending 73$ Billion across the next four years. Their Government has literally been subsidizing EV production at 3-4 times the rate of the United States for over a decade! Yeah, that’s a totally level playing field. No shenanigans there, no Sir.
let’s say double the price.
As the article notes the Seagull, rebadged as a Dolphin Mini, sells for $21,000 in Latin America so you aren’t going to get it for $24,000 in the United States and most especially not if it’s built here where they can’t employ people for 5 USD an hour.
You don’t have to like it, or me, but it’s completely irrefutable that the 12,000 price is only possible due enormous government subsidies and cheap Chinese labor. Allowing those vehicles into the United States is the end of all domestic auto manufacturing, not just the Big 3, and all of the workers who are employed there. We already watched this play out with Steel, Textiles, and other manufacturing based industries.
This isn’t about technology at all. It’s about labor costs. UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well and they don’t get maimed by robots much. If in doubt, check the profit margins of the Big Three. The shareholder class is still making disproportionately more than workers but this is one of the North American examples where there’s much more balance between them and workers.
UAW labor costs more because its workers are paid well
UAW labor doesn’t cost more because its workers are paid well. UAW labor costs more because of our private health care system dumping workers into an extractive for-profit insurance system and the pensions system has been defrauded for decades. And even then, the margins on these vehicles are such that labor costs are negligible, particularly with the enormous amount of automation that goes into line work now.
That’s before you get into how many auto plants have been de-unionized, either by moving them south of the Mason-Dixon Line or by setting up two-tiered contracts that phase out older union workers for younger scabs.
People in NA can’t work for Chinese wages and survive.
That’s because they don’t have access to Chinese state benefits. No state pensions. No state health care. Stripped down public education. Crappy old roads instead of public rail. 90% of the population owning their homes rather than renting. Medicare and SS benefit cuts forcing folks to work into their 70s and 80s, rather than retiring comfortably at the age of 54
That’s why Chinese labor is cheaper.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.
Toyota plants aren’t unionized. We just saw an effort to unionize a plant in Troy, Michigan this year and its been fought tooth and nail by the industry.
“paid well” only has meaning in the context of standard of living, or cost of living. You provided that context. Within it they’re paid relatively well. They’re not getting state pensions or healthcare anytime soon so we work within the context.
You provided that context. Within it they’re paid relatively well.
This exposé is a bit suspect, or at least this part is which makes me question the integrity as a whole:
He was forced to walk 21 miles daily, one way, to his job
Average human walks 3mph. This dude apparently never sleeps.
The whole thing reads like a corporate “uNioNS BaD” article
and they don’t get maimed by robots much
???
- Is there evidence that Chinese workers have high high rates of this?
- People are getting maimed at Tesla plants all the time.
- The US created the neoliberal WTO to crush labor rights worldwide, worker safety among them. The only reason the US is sabotaging the WTO now is because that system no longer favors it.
.
Honda and Toyota posed the same problem and they were forced to create factories here in order to eliminate the labor cost disparity that would have destroyed the lives of UAW members.
I don’t understand. Were Honda & Toyota forced to, or did they do it out of the kindness of their hearts?
@Buelldozer is right, he’s just being extra spicy about it.
You’re darn right I’m being extra spicy. This is a re-run of what I watched happen with textiles, steel, and other manufacturing businesses here in the United States and especially industries that were heavily unionized with higher labor costs.
It’s astonishing to see so many people willing to kill their Domestic Labor just so they can get a cheap car. It’s disgustingly short sighted and selfish.
Yeah I’m a bit puzzled because I think these folks are supportive of labor given they seem positive about workers in China having better safety nets. Yet letting cars in that will destroy local manufacturing isn’t going to do anything positive for North American labor. If anything is going to help, it’s supporting them instead of non-union car makers and supporting union action at non-union manufacturers. I’m of the opinion that we can’t expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have. They simply won’t represent labor to a significant extent unless they see workers as organized voting blocks that don’t lap up corporate propaganda.
I’m of the opinion that we can’t expect any improvements from the political class before we take more of the profits so we can buy those politicians like corporations have.
The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house. — Audre Lorde
I don’t think we should try to play the game by the capitalist class’ own rules, which they created for themselves. We’re never going to be able buy the political system by outspending the capitalist class: they own the means of production and it’s their political system.
Right now labor is very divided, shattered. It was significantly more organized a hundred years ago, though still divided along racial lines, a mistake we mustn’t repeat. People don’t seem to remember now how many socialists existed back then and were deeply involved in that organizing, before they were crushed by red scares and other skulduggery. And unfortunately almost all of our surviving unions came from explicitly anti-socialist roots, the others having been purged. Socialists are still extremely few in the US.
We can’t buy government, and we know our vote alone has very little power. What we need is a resurgent, re-organized labor movement, and new labor media (we used to have our own newspapers!) to counteract corporate media, and we need new mass industrial actions that fit today’s material conditions*. That’s how we forced the state to make concessions in the past.
*Simply organizing factory workers again won’t cut it, because most of us aren’t factory workers.
They think they’re leftists. But they’re too “me first” on consuming to realize they’re not.
This is no different than the 70s tho, when the oil crisis and subsequent importation of compact vehicles forced the Big Three to mothball the ‘boats’.
BYD would likely want to gauge support in America before committing to building factories, especially in a nation where land prices have skyrocketed.
an anti-worker product
Lolz. Lmao even.
I always was under the impression that america is similarly anti-worker, esp. hearing news about tesla strikes. Probably not as extreme as China though if you compare safety standards. When I look at car companies, there is honestly no good option that I would happily support by buying from. What do you mean about CEOs moving to China, is this a thing?
anti-worker product
Most products in the states is literally this.
Drive it over the border from Mexico. Although, you’ll likely have to pay above the sticker price. Latin Americans are gobbling up Chinese NEVs as fast as they can deliver them.
I don’t know if the laws have changed but (for some reason I forget), a dealership here imported two three-wheeled small pickup trucks from China within the last decade or so. So it was at least possible within the recent past somehow.
I don’t even like buying Chinese shoes because they fall apart before the season ends. Do these shoes spy on us as well ?
Wikipedia doesn’t have an article in English but does have one in French :
https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_SeagullYes it does: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Seagull
Might be a connectivity issue on your end (or the mobile link playing up).
Thanks, I put a strike through over the
offendingpart.
