(Content warning, discussions of SA and misogyny, mods I might mention politics a bit but I hope this can be taken outside the context of politics and understood as a discussion of basic human decency)
We all know how awful Reddit was when a user mentioned their gender. Immediate harassment, DMs, etc. It’s probably improved over the years? But still awful.
Until recently, Lemmy was the most progressive and supportive of basic human dignity of communities I had ever followed. I have always known this was a majority male platform, but I have been relatively pleased to see that positive expressions of masculinity have won out.
All of that changed with the recent “bear vs man” debacle. I saw women get shouted down just for expressing their stories of being sexually abused, repeatedly harassed, dogpiled, and brigaded with downvotes. Some of them held their ground, for which I am proud of them, but others I saw driven to delete their entire accounts, presumably not to return.
And I get it. The bear thing is controversial; we can all agree on this. But that should never have resulted in this level of toxicity!
I am hoping by making this post I can kind of bring awareness to this weakness, so that we can learn and grow as a community. We need to hold one another accountable for this, or the gender gap on this site is just going to get worse.
Lemmy just sucks in general. It feels like almost every instance is run by extremists of some description that will ban you for disagreeing with them or criticizing them. That, or you have LW which is run like Reddit.
If the fear for a typical woman is this bad, then we need to be better about teaching boys. I’m a pretty empathetic person, just ask my new very rapidly made female best friend. But despite the wife, and a few pretty damn close female friends, close mom, sister…. The fears expressed in my short reading on the current discussion have never been as clearly communicated, well the fear was definitely clear, but not the magnitude.
I agree with the sentiment that it’s just a bad premise. It puts everyone straight into a defensive posture, and no one learns anything when they’re trying to defend their sense of self.
On the other hand, if people are going to DMs to harass beyond the context of the heated conversation… well they ARE DEFINITELY the kind of people who are a threat, and need to be dealt with.
I’m sorry for what you had to go through.
there’s an unpopular community here? Funny that i haven’t seen it until now.
Anyway, on the bear man thingy. I thought that was rather interesting, as a “man” myself i saw a rather similar situation but from the opposite perspective (i hadn’t seen or heard of this before, so i was really fucking confused initially)
incoming personal opinion btw, if you’re scared of those, you should look away :)
I think it’s less “bad for women” more “The internet causing people to yell at each other over stupid shit for no particular reason” than anything. Naturally it was an incredibly polarized topic. The wording was specifically designed to generate outrage and attention around it (i feel like i don’t really have to explain why) and a lot of people were taking very tribal stances on either side, with the information they had, without properly considering all factors (because thought experiments turn out to be more than surface level, weirdly enough.)
idk, i just didn’t really experience anything that wasn’t “fuck u/spez, he probably rapes little girls” levels of shenanigans. Then again, i’m internet hardened so you wouldn’t be able to shake me with anything really.
This bear thing has got out of hand lmao
I missed the kerfuffle, but my $0.02 is Lemmy is still in infancy. It’s also a federated system made up of different instances, some of which - and you know who I mean - aren’t as cool.
So utilize the tools provided, reporting, blocking, etc. and find the communities you like. /$0.02
didn’t know that. i was thinking of a small flower that doesn’t seem very durable.
Seems to me that the rage bait did it’s job, but the only who won was the author and website that got all the clicks and ads serving, while lemmy got a shitstorm for nothing.
You want an unpopular opinion, okay here’s one: I’m okay with Lemmy not being a good place for women and am strongly in favor of doing nothing to change that. Women aren’t on my side. Therefore I am not on theirs.
im totally ootl. someone explain?
I think its more or less you come in swinging most people are gonna swing back, the bear thing gave both sides a reason to ‘rightfully’ be angry when the question literally couldn’t matter less than Lego fortnite
The whole “bear vs. man” thing proved that there are still a lot of people out there totally unable to get over themselves. On one side you see people piling on women not knowing the everyday struggle the average woman goes through everyday, on the other side there are people that get mad at memes not accepting that the statement was meant to be over the top in the first place, so it’s ok to find irony in it
I don’t know how you can solve this. Lemmy has become a refuge for outcasts. Men with social/personality issues are the biggest group of outcasts. Women are much less likely to be outcasts and so have far less interest in being here.
To create an environment that is welcoming to a particular group takes a certain critical mass of people from that group. If you’re such an extremely small minority you’re going to have a very difficult time reaching that critical mass and the negative environment further discourages people from joining.
Yes, unfortunately Lemmy has gone like Voat - only the “extreme” (generalising) have stuck around. Hopefully something new will arise to displace Reddit and capture its mainstream users.
Idk man it’s not that extreme
If outcasts are people who don’t feel welcome in any irl or mainstream communities; women are just as likely to be outcasts. Women online can avoid outing themselves because even female oriented online support spaces get brigaded by men. There are a handful of female artists in my circle who identify as male online because they kept getting creepy dms. They still get them, of course, but less so. Less violent and rapey.
Who know how many women are out there, lurking in the shadows, just trying to look at memes about linux and communism.
I think they’re including people that aren’t exposed to communities even if they would be welcome. Men are more likely to become socially isolated (I’ve only seen studies for 30+ yrs of age), which means they generally turn more to online. Definitely a surprising amount of women lurking, but look at any group online meet-up and it’s almost all men (even if all members show up)
How does one look at any group online meet-up? Is there a place where all group, online meet-ups are posted?
As an example, if you look up “reddit irl meet-ups” it’s either a majority men or an overwhelming majority men, I’ve met up with a community for a game I’m interested in and it was mostly men. Maybe men would just be more likely to show up? but anonymous statistics on websites also report the same.
I looked that up and couldn’t find any data on the demographics for reddit IRL meetups. But we were debating whether or not more men or women go online to find community. My point what that women don’t always out themselves because of negative attention. The most recent statistics I found showed that women in the US are self reported to more likely to use social media than men. Worldwide, it varies by the platform, but the disparity is highest on Twitter, with more male users. Anecdotal evidence doesn’t work when people are actively avoiding being recognized as women, and online communities can vary widely in their gender makeup.
I don’t believe there have been studies on irl reddit meetups, but usually there is a photo posted. With image recognition tools you could probably get a rough distribution, but my theory that most who show up will be male is based on anonymous polling data, which I don’t believe women would hide their gender on. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1255182/distribution-of-users-on-reddit-worldwide-gender/ Many women use Instagram or snapchat or tiktok etc, but I think you’d agree those aren’t general conversations focused. Most (all that I have seen) that focus on discussion are majority men. You could say the discussions that happen on these sites are just more appealing to men, or that women get pushed out, and I can neither prove or disprove that. If you know of any websites that focus on general chatting that are mostly women I’d be curious to hear about them. Omeggle I know actually was pretty neutral on gender.
I’m not arguing that women don’t look for online spaces, the statistics aren’t even that lopsided and I know many women IRL who spend much more time online than I do. It just seems to me if men are more likely socially isolated, they are more likely to become outcasts, and hence more likely to spend all their time online. Not that women won’t be in these spaces, or some communities aren’t majority women.
Evidently online usage for the younger generation is almost exactly even across the two sexes, but I’m not sure how much of this is for conversation vs how much is watching tiktok/posting on Instagram.
I don’t believe evey meetup posts pictures of their entire groups, nor do I think there’s a database for that, or that, if that database existed, it would be a good tool for assessing whether or not men are more likely to be outcasts. Reddit is only one social media site, like I said, and has a shrinking market share. Whether or not other social media platforms are conducive to conversations was never my point, it was the one-sidedness of saying men are more likely to be social outcasts. I don’t think looking at a few pictures of reddit meetups proves anything.
Excellent explanation, thanks for this.
Lemmy has become a refuge for
outcastsliberals.FTFY. And boy… does it show.
I commented about it and some guy replaced every instance of the word “men” in my post with “Jews” to prove to me that I am a bigot. His comment was removed by mods, but later un-removed because we’re big fans of bad faith arguments and invalid comparisons on this platform.
Ok but wtf is your name
I already see people running with the same rage bait shit again and this is not the place for it. As for you, thank you for sharing your experience and I am sorry it was greeted with such toxicity. :)
For the rest of y’all, please see this and this comment which explains how this is a bad faith argument and be civil to one another.
This post is about combating harrassment. If you absolutely must discuss the nuances of feminism in relation to xenophobia, I ask you to make a post elsewhere about it.
It’s a totally valid comparison. If you are saying things about a group of people, and replacing that specific group with a different random group makes you feel uncomfortable, don’t say the things.
“Men are terrible”
“Women are terrible”
“Jews are terrible”
Just don’t say those things. Better yet, don’t think those things.
I think saying “an unknown man with no consequences is very dangerous if you’re a woman” is fair, and also sexist in a way. That’s just the reality of how things are.
If I replace woman with “an unknown jew… is very dangerous” it’s similarly saying “this group is bad” but is also completely untrue. Understanding that it’s sexist is important, but swapping the word out can be an invalid comparison imo.
it’s objectively not true however.
statistically, the danger to women is known men. most women are assaulted by men they know and trust.
How about “an unknown black person is very dangerous”?
That’s a fair point, but only to an extent. I think most of the time what I said holds true. And I think it’s pretty clear when you cross the line from reasonable to bigot, usually.
Like, I would agree that it’s reasonable to have a healthy fear of being alone in the ghetto at night if you’re a white dude. But there’s a point where that becomes racism.
Yeah 100% I think the post was kinda ragebait though so people were being angry and hyperbolic.
I’m getting roasted in another thread right now because of this, someone saying all Americans don’t care about the world, which is crap
Men are not a marginalized group, neither historically nor currently.
Correct.
It’s still bad to be a bigot? Don’t get your point here.
So since we can agree that men are not a marginalized group, we can agree that it’s an invalid comparison.
Hatred against Jewish people is a real thing, hatred against men is mostly confined to strawmen that live in the heads of angry men.
That’s a non-sequitur. Being marginalized isn’t a prerequisite for being a bigot.
I’m saying something very simple. If you seriously can’t understand it then I can’t help you.
You know how a privileged white person couldn’t point at some random inconvenience and say “This is just like what slavery was like for black people”? That’s the kind of comparison you’re defending here.
I’m saying something very simple. I
Just
Asking
Questions?
No, what You’re saying is a non-sequitur. It doesn’t follow and your logic is wrong.
you can’t argue with people who are convinced that ‘minority’ status grants them a moral superiority, and therefore their attacks on a non-minority group are justified.
this is the same reason right-wingers are obsessed with pedos. by fighting the ‘ultimate evil’ everything they do is automatically justified.
I’m confused how that is a bad faith argument or comparison in anyway. They changed nothing about your commentary except for the group you were singling out. Lol.
It isn’t a bad faith comparison, you’re just seeing cognitive dissonance in action. A person who believes that bigotry is wrong is having their deeply held bigotry pointed out.
Rather than reject one of those two incongruous beliefs, they tell themselves (and insist to others) that the person pointing out their bigotry is in some way wrong despite their argument being rock solid.
Men are not a marginalized group. With the concerning amount of antisemitism becoming common in the US, it’s VERY bad faith to try comparing the perceived discrimination against a hypothetical man to the actual struggles of real people.
Nah. It’s not bad faith at all. You are perceiving it that way due to external factors. But the truth of the matter is the same. Change it from Jews to Asian. Or any other group and I bet you’d never say it.
So because you state “men are not a marginalized group”, men aren’t able to be used as a comparison as a group of people?
Sounds like you are marginalizing men totally and are so sure of your “fact” that it clouds your judgement.
What the fuck ever dude, big apologies to all the men I offended. VERY glad I don’t know any of you clowns in real life. Good luck interacting with women.
It’s not about offending anyone. It’s about you marginalizing groups because you believe XYZ. You are doing the thing you hate.
🤡
Name calling doesn’t really change my opinion. But you do you lol.
Stereotyping people based on aspects of their personality they were born with is wrong. Period.
Die on whatever hill you want to, it doesn’t make it a valid comparison.
Making judgements based on your past experiences is vastly different from doing so on cultural stereotypes. I have never pointed to stereotypes or “vibes” or anything else non-concrete. I am drawing on my lived experience to inform my opinions.
Let’s just be explicit, are you saying rape victims are biggoted for having trauma involving men? Because that is absolutely the core of the issue here.
By your logic a person who gets assaulted by a black person allowed to prejudge all black people.
I feel perfectly fine saying that’s morally wrong.
By your logic, it’s the assault victim’s fault that they have any notions at all. Trauma can manifest in all sorts of fucked up ways bud, we don’t get to choose.
It’s whacky to say something is “morally wrong” while completely ignoring it’s cause, context, and any other relevant factors. There’s this little thing called nuance that you’ve been stomping on all this time you’ve been trying to paint me into a box.
I was sexually assaulted by a female family member as a child. Repeatedly. I was then made to believe that that was “fun” and to seek it out.
My experience does not under any circumstances allow me to be a misogynist.
I find bigotry wrong. It took a lot of years to process what happened to me at the ripe old age of six, but it was my moral responsibility to do so rather than to take the shortcut to hatred.
God it sucks that people are replying to you just repeating that same argument.
PSA for those in the back: fear or even hatred of men is not equivalent to racism of any kind. Women have years of lived experience of men being shitty, from casual sexism to sexual assault. Knowing that any man could be dangerous is not prejudice, it’s the truth, and remembering it allows us to exist and survive in the world.
Idk, to use another lemming’s comment from this very post,
My proverbial beef isn’t the pointing out of how manny men are predators and that the risksfor women are non-zero; my problem more specifically is that the meme stacks handily on top of the already vexing racial profiling I deal with as a black man who’s had false allegations leveled in the past and lost jobs because of the weaponization of this fear. I have already spent damn near a half century being presumed some kind of feral Mandingo rape beast purely for existing while black. The presumption of interest in all of these women like a scene out of Kentucky Fried Movie gets really old and they get super vindictive when rejected.
To me it does seem analogous to the whole racist “black people are 12% of the population but commit 50% of the crime” thing, in that while it is true it is still racist to assume every black person will commit a crime against you and use it as a basis to fear them. Furthermore white people also commit plenty crime and get away with it, padding the numbers, and many women also get away with coercing/forcing men to have sex because nobody believes or gives a fuck about male victims (trust me, am one, 2 diff women,) so it often also goes unreported. On that note actually in many places in the us “rape” requires penetration, so if a woman forces you to penetrate her “you must’ve liked it” and no court case for you!
Personally I think it’d be prudent not to vilify an entire gender while also excluding victims from said gender.
Hell I understand though, at least with the bear I’d only be brutally mauled instead of forced to have sex with it, and 2/infinity women I’ve met have forced me to have sex with them so imo all women could, I’ll take the bear too.
PSA for those in the back: fear or even hatred of black people is not equivalent to racism of any kind. White people have years of lived experience of black people being shitty, from casual mugging to murder. Knowing that any black person could be dangerous is not prejudice, it’s the truth, and remembering it allows us to exist and survive in the world.
God it sucks that people are replying to you just repeating that same argument.
PSA for those in the back: fear or even hatred of Muslims is not equivalent to misandry of any kind. Women have years of lived expericen of Muslim being shitty, from casual sexism to sexual assault. Knowing that any Muslim could be dangerous is not prejudice, it’s the truth, remembering it allows us to exist and survive in the world.
Thanks for the PSA :)
I’d argue that it’s still prejudice, as the word only means to assume behavior from the appearance alone. But in a positive way, as prejudices originally existed for self-protection.
prejudices originally existed for self-protection
Huh?
I worded that badly. What I meant was that the reason humans have prejudice-y thinking hardwired in the brain is for self-protection. If individuals of some ape species have a 30 % chance of being super aggressive and trying to kill you on the spot, your first reaction to seeing one will be negative and retiring – even if this specific one is super nice and wouldn’t hurt a soul.
Ohhhh yeah
The good thing about lemmy is that it don’t get directive from any governments to censor certain issues like what happen to Google, reddit, meta and other social media For any other case, the mods will take care of the instances. If you don’t like it, just block whichever instances, communities or users you want. Whats so difficult about that? Nobody is forcing you to be in whatever toxic instance/community is or to read posts that you don’t like.
when the toxic behavior is spread over multiple communities and instances like this, that’s an indicator that the problem is systemic rather than individual
that the kind of people you’ll in liber-media. You’ll find toxic people, but you’ll also find accommodating people. If you want to play safe, then I don’t think any lemmy or any future-whatever-libre-non-lemmy will suit your taste. Make your own server and just make sure that whoever subscribed to that are up to your expectation.
Bro there is like maybe 25 active communities on here… if I have to block half of them then what’s the point of being here?
