Obviously this won’t work for all sports, but things like football, track, soccer, it would allow for de-gendered team, even allowing athletes with the skills but not the genetically-endowed physical attributes to have a place to play.

Note: I know very little about sports and being on a sports team, so please point out anything that doesn’t make sense.

  • Nomecks@lemmy.ca
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    4 months ago

    I think they should have classes limited by hormone level and just let people supplement to equality.

    • Saik0@lemmy.saik0.com
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      4 months ago

      Having the same hormone levels now isn’t the same as “grew up with testosterone all their lives so all their physical connective tissues were built in a different way, but that’s okay because they’ve cut their testosterone levels recently.”

      There’s longstanding structural differences in the human body if you’ve had Testosterone all your life.

      • Nomecks@lemmy.ca
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        Sure, but things like steroids and HGH obviously work so supplementing to a standard level should allow closer competition.

          • Nomecks@lemmy.ca
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            4 months ago

            To the same level as male/trans athletes in the same class?

            “How much weight should a woman put on to compete in the welterweight class against a trans athlete?”

            • Saik0@lemmy.saik0.com
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              4 months ago

              You’ve missed the point… There is NO amount of drugs that can equate the function of male puberty for a female. No matter how much steroids you give them. There is no “equal” hormone levels to get equality.

    • TechNerdWizard42@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      For real though, the only sports competitions I’ve been to live in the past decade have been robot sports.

      Why would I pay money to see a human take a ball from another human, when I can pay less to watch a robot shoot flames and saw open another robot gladiator style?!

      • ASeriesOfPoorChoices@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I mean…

        ‘The word itself derives from the Czech word “robota,” or forced labor, as done by serfs. Its Slavic linguistic root, “rab,” means “slave"’

    • Caveman@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Yeah, if one height/weight class gets dominant that class should be nerfed like in every competitive esport

  • katy ✨@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    or why don’t we just keep everything as is because it’s not a big fucking deal despite what bigots say

    if you really wanted to “fix” or “save” womens sport, just start by fucking paying them the same as men and giving women’s sport the same attention on tv

  • bloodfart@lemmy.ml
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    4 months ago

    If you wanna get answers from a community that’s been training in 1000x earths gravity to fight anti-trans rhetoric, ask this in hexbear.

  • Leviathan@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    Testosterone level AND weight. Wait til they find out what happens when you’re on hormone blockers.

  • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    I’m still a fan of just removing all the rules around drugs and bodies. Let’s see what 21st century science can do!

    • cRazi_man@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      I imagine it would be like The Fast and The Furious where he presses the nitrous button till the screws/bolts all come out and the car falls apart very quickly.

    • noobnarski@feddit.de
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      4 months ago

      It would be a kinda fun league to watch, but I dont want to hear about athletes dying because they took obscene amounts of steroids to be the best.

      • MataVatnik@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        We already have racers dying regularly in Isle of Man TT. Blood sports never died, they evolved. Why not sprinkle some steroids over it.

      • cmbabul@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I want to say that because understanding of steroids and sports medicine they could be done in a way to prevent that for many sports. But o also know that would require rigorously enforced regulation which athletes would then try to game, which would probably lead to more deaths on the field.

        • PsychedSy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Fuck that. You wanna go nuts on steroids then shoot up meth and cocaine before a race, go ahead. We’ll put defibrillators every 10m around the track. Catch that dragon, sports person.

          • n3m37h@sh.itjust.works
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            4 months ago

            I’d pay to see a feild full of tweakers, put a massive rock on one of those dog race things place random weapons around the track

  • I say fuck it and let everyone compete together. Ain’t no reason men and women couldn’t compete with each other in baseball, basketball, hockey, tennis, golf, etc. Even if you believed men are capable of being bigger and supporting more muscle, there’s tons of sports where that isn’t going to be the most useful thing to win.

    How would you know this gender or that gender is better anyway unless you actually let everyone compete together, regardless of what’s in their pants or their heart?

    • AchtungDrempels@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Ever left your computer and went out to play some sports?

      I am a bit surprised that so many pro trans people seem to pick up the bait of the right and make these over the top suggestions like abolishing womens sports. Certainly proposing stuff like this will help the trans cause a lot and not make them look crazy at all.

      • 🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 ℹ️@yiffit.net
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        4 months ago

        I have played sports my whole life. Mostly in mixed gender leagues.

        I am a bit surprised to see so much sexism in this thread from people who seriously think men and women can not compete at the same level in things where physical strength isn’t the be all end all of the sport.

        • kava@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          We’re not talking hobbyists. We’re talking top level athletes. Men aren’t just stronger. There are dozens if not hundreds of items they outperform women on.

          The sports where women can actually compete with men are rare. For example marksmanship or long-distance marathon. Virtually every sport men have distinct and significant advantages.

          Men have larger hearts, more lung volume per body mass, more red blood cells, more clotting factors which means they recover quicker and have a higher pain tolerance.

          Testosterone allows for more rapid muscle gain as well as better recovery. So two people training the same exercises an identical amount of time, the man would have gained significantly more muscle mass and strength.

          Men have higher blood pressure, which means they feel fatigue less than women. Men don’t lose iron to menstruation, which means there’s more iron for oxygen circulation in the blood.

          These items basically make it so men are much better at almost all sports.

          For example soccer. The US Women’s national team lost to a team of high school age boys.

          Men can kick harder, sprint faster, run longer, train longer & they gain more from training & they recover faster from training so they can do it more, they feel less pain so they can stay at max exertion longer, they can convert oxygen into energy faster so they can sustain all of this more than women,

          Etc

          There’s a reason we have women’s leagues. If we didn’t have it, women wouldn’t get to compete at a high level.

          At a lower level, like hobbyist or local leagues the story may be different. There’s more variance among the general population than amongst top athletes.

          Serena Williams, #1 woman tennis player, can’t hold a candle to the 203rd best man. Look up her interview about it. She’s under no illusions about this

    • kava@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Male sports typically don’t have a gender requirement. Women just can’t compete. This is why women’s leagues were created. So they can compete with people around similar physical potential.

      Look at chess for example. Anyone can compete in the world open, but you’ll see 98~99% men. So, they make a woman’s league.

      Women have the option of playing in both. This is the same for most sports.

        • kava@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Men and women are the same intelligence on average. There are more men at the extremes of the distribution curve for certain attributes, though. And when you are talking about chess players, you are taking a sample of the ends of the distribution curve.

          There’s also evidence that chess ability and visiospatial cognitive ability are positively correlated with chess ability. Men tend to perform better than woman on average. (Stuff like rotating imaginary 3d shapes for example)

          This may be partially why we only see 42 out of 2500 worldwide grandmasters being women. Men may only perform 2.5~4% better, but when you’re talking about the extremes (best chess players in world) that small % means a lot.

          Tldr: It’s not because they aren’t on equal intelligence. Women for example score better on verbal cognition tests.

          And on average men and women have the same IQ

            • kava@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Every claim I’ve made can be double checked by going on Google scholar or libgen. You’ll find multiple studies and recent studies.

              • petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                4 months ago

                And the ones I’ve made can be double-checked by taking a sociology class.

                If I am to be charitable, I think you’re just glazing over the elephant in the room. When a little girl is told “they’re not as able,” they’re not as likely to continue. If only 13% of players are women at all, then yeah, duh, they won’t be represented in the grandmasters.

                • kava@lemmy.world
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                  4 months ago

                  Women make up roughly 15% of USCF members yet they only make up roughly 1.5% of grandmasters.

                  That means they are underrepresented by about an order of magnitude. Women on average are about 200 ELO lower than men.  It’s a very large difference and there has been research done to figure out why.

                  There are no real conclusive findings (as with much of this type of sociological research) but we have evidence for various different reasons. One, women are not encouraged to play chess at the same level that men are. Similar reason that more men go into Computer Science or Physics. It’s not a built in biological difference, but a cultural one.

                  Another one is that women are younger by 11 years on average, so their ratings haven’t peaked yet. So we should see this gap close in the coming decades. There are also various other inequities between men and women (like for example stereotype threat).

                  So that explains at least some of the gap. What I’m trying to say is that beyond these factors, there is also a biological difference that results in men being overrepresented in the top chess players. Notice I’m not saying average chess players, but specifically the best in the world (the grandmasters).

                  Why?

                  Well, there’s evidence for something called the "greater male variability hypothesis”. Think of every person sitting somewhere on a normal distribution. Pick a trait like aggressiveness or competitiveness.

                  There are the extremes on both sides of the bell curve. On the left, super passive and on the right super aggressive. Most people clump at the mean, in the center of the bell curve.

                  There’s evidence that more women cluster around the mean relative to men. Men are overrepresented at the extremes of the bell curve, even though the average is the same as women. Only by a little bit, but it’s statistically significant. That means that if you took a sample of all the super-aggressive and super-passive people, the majority would be men.

                  When you look at top chess players, they are more likely to have extreme attributes (being ultra-competitive for example helps you get better at chess).

                  This same effect is also theorized to be why we see that vast majority of prisoners are male. Vast majority of homeless, etc. Because extreme attributes tend to either be really good or really bad.

                  So that’s one biological difference. The other is the visospatial intelligence. Men tend to score better on visospatial tests when compared to women. This effect is already visible by 2 or 3 months of age, so it’s unlikely to be some sort of cultural effect.

                  Visiospatial cognitive ability is positively correlated with chess ability. Another biological difference between men and women that likely has some non-zero effect on chess ability.

                  So why are women underrepresented in grandmasters when compared to males? There is evidence for both

                  a) external social factors

                  and

                  b) innate biological factors

                  Nobody knows what % of the difference is due to a) or b). We just know there is some non-zero effect for both.

                  I encourage you to fact check every claim I’ve made. Don’t just look for one  research paper that confirms your argument. Each claim I’ve made I’ve seen multiple studies on. There are studies that will say the opposite, but look at it in aggregate. Look at metaanalysis studies.

      • Klear@sh.itjust.works
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        4 months ago

        Notably Judit Polgár, probably the strongest female chess player, never competed for the Women’s World Championship and only rarely played in women-specific events.

    • LANIK2000@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      The classic kung fu paradox. We can’t compete, because this technique is so powerful it would kill the opponent! That’s why they perform so well in MMA. /s

  • doingthestuff@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    Just create a trans league. Trans men and trans women all in the same league. Id watch that shit, it would make money. So why don’t we have this yet?

    • Drivebyhaiku@lemmy.world
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      4 months ago

      Segregated sports based on a demographic like that isn’t as trans affirming as you would think… My gut reaction as a trans person is about the same aversion I imagine a person of color would experience if a white person tried to put forward a “People of Color sport league”.

      Ditching us all into a new category like we’re quarantined in sport away from other athletes because we’re implicitly not cis… Isn’t something I would appreciate.

      • kava@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        The unfortunate reality is that men are much better at women at sports. This is why we have women leagues. There are pronounced biological differences that would essentially prevent women from competing if everything was one league.

        MTF trans, because they were born male, have all of these advantages. They can take hormone blockers / estrogen pills and that reduces some of the advantage. But not all.

        So it results in a MTF trans being a) weaker than males and b) stronger than females

        What other solution except a trans league would be just to all parties involved?

        • Drivebyhaiku@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          I have pointed out to people before that trans women athletes in practice tend to not outperform all women in the sport. The data we have puts them as no more competitive as women with naturally high testosterone and depending on sport can actually be at a disadvantage…

          But there’s another underlying assumption. You assume your athlete went through masculinizing puberty first and then a female puberty second. If you skip that first step then you don’t see major differences of frame, weight distribution or muscle mass.

          Where this stings is that laws are forcing people to go through that first puberty regardless of the wishes of the paitent, the patients families, the paitents doctors and the concensus of the medical associations of those doctors… And then the government sits back and demonizes those people based on their physicality as a logistical social problem for the rest of their lives and ostracizes them based on this logic.

          Athletes squew young. If you allowed through trans athletes who went through the transition process young enough or looked at sport with trans populations and statistically assessed whether any excessive advantage was afforded and allow in those instances where none was found you could solve for any statistical stand out issues within a decade…

          But no, we are having this inane conversation because it suits some government parties to make people feel that trans people are a threat or a problem that must be stopped and that there is zero reasonable inclusion policies.

          • kava@lemmy.world
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            This is why my personal opinion is we should allow trans athletes if they didn’t go through male puberty. If they did, sorry you’re out. If they didn’t, it’s OK.

            And you’re right not all mtf athletes are going to end up at the top echelon but given enough time statistically speaking they will be drastically overrepresented.

            Edit: also the data is quite clear trans women are stronger, have more lung capacity, etc even 5+ years into hormone therapy. Iirc I even saw 10+ years on a paper once

            But the ones that went through male puberty. I think this is why we should try and find gender dysphoria earlier and treat b4 puberty. It’s much more effective the younger you start

            Of course issue is you don’t want to be too broad with diagnosis because of false positives and the conservatives going nuts. So it’s a difficult thing to do. Maybe we will identify what causes gender dysphoria some day and that will help

        • zbyte64@awful.systems
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          4 months ago

          Hormones aren’t binary though, some men are born with higher T levels than others. And some women have bigger bones than some men. If leveling the “hormone” advantage is desired, then drug test all participants and rank them that way.

          • kava@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            Virtually all men with functioning testicles have higher T than all women. This is because testicles produce T at 10-50x the rate of ovaries.

            Men going through puberty see permanent changes to the body. You cannot undo this. It gives MTF permanent advantages compared to women.

            They are stronger than women on average even after years of being on estrogen.

            As for the variance naturally seen, you’re right. But consider this

            Who ends up becoming a top athlete? The very best, right? So they are already near the top of the bell curve. So when you compare athletes, you’re not pulling random samples from the entire population.

            You’re pulling a random sample from the people with highest T, densest bones, highest rate of fast twitch muscles, etc.

            The male maximum and the female maximum is vastly different. This is why we see such a massive difference in performance.

            Presence of hormones currently in the blood does not entirely measure this.

            • zbyte64@awful.systems
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              4 months ago

              You’re pulling a random sample from the people with highest T, densest bones, highest rate of fast twitch muscles, etc.

              Yeah, isn’t that the point? I mean you are talking averages but OP is talking about how to handle the outliers (trans folk).

    • reddithalation@sopuli.xyz
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      4 months ago

      because lots of (most?) trans people don’t want to be “trans”, they want to fit in with the gender they know they are, and being labeled as not a real man or woman in the normal sports leagues, but a trans man or woman in the trans league, is insulting.

    • zbyte64@awful.systems
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      Let’s just say it’s a good thing that everything that would make money, does not exist in society.

  • Kilgore Trout@feddit.it
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    4 months ago

    soccer

    “Male” soccer is not restricted to men. Both genders are allowed. There are only men because they outperform women.

    • Hawk@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      Not true. Some countries allow it on a national level, but many do not. I believe The Netherlands allows it, but only at lower competition levels.

      I think FIFA forbids it entirely, but I’m not entirely sure.

        • cmbabul@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          Which is awesome and I hope we see one in the NFL one day! That said the reason for that is that kicker is the only position on the field that doesn’t require you be a genetic marvel. Most men and women that are born are not the size needed to play O-Line, most people that are that big are also not athletic enough(or didn’t have access to the tools to improve to that level).

          I’d love to see a woman on the line or at qb or wide receiver. It’s just unlikely to happen before the sport is outlawed or I die

      • kava@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        He addresses them with that statement. There are plenty of women that are in similar weight classes as men but you don’t see any in male sports.

        Even though male sports does not have a gender requirement. This is essentially an indirect way of saying that there are biological differences between male and female that go beyond weight.

        There are various differences you could point out. Males have lower body fat %, which means more muscle. Their bones are shaped differently and are more dense. Men tend to be more aggressive and competitive. Men tend to have stronger bones, joints, tendons, and ligaments.

        Men have more red blood cells, their hearts are bigger so they can pump more blood, and greater lung volume relative to body mass. So even a male and women same weight and height the man will be able to circulate oxygen more quickly.

        There are many more examples if you go do some reading.

        One of the differences may not be huge by themselves. But when you take the differences above and combine them, it creates a situation where in almost all sports, men play virtually unopposed by women.

        Look up the Serena Williams interview. She’s undoubtedly the best female player in the world. She doesn’t stand a chance against a the 203rd best tennis male player.

        This difference even applies to areas like chess. The highest ranking a woman ever got was 6th in the world, Judith Pulgar. Amazing player, but out of the 2500 or so grandmasters in the world, 42 are women.

        Some of these differences can be explained by women around the world not being encouraged to play chess, but that does not explain all.

        There are large biological differences when you look at the population in a statistical sense. And when you look at the most extreme samples from the edge of the normal distribution… that’s where the best athletes / chess players are going to come from.

        • uis@lemm.ee
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          4 months ago

          Chess? What percent of woman players are GMs and what percent of male players are GMs? Because it sounds like sampling bias.

          • kava@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            Women make up roughly 15% of US Chess Federation members. They make up roughly 1.5% of grandmasters.

            That’s an order of magnitude difference.

            • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              Here’s a podcast about a study

              https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/mens-chess-superiority-explained-08-12-29/

              Normally I’d just link studies…

              But I feel like if you’re this opinionated about things we figured out long ago, maybe listening would help more than reading.

              Because it wouldn’t have taken much for you to Google this at some point and realize we’ve been studying this for decades, and maybe, just maybe, science is better than your assumptions.

              There are a lot of factors in play, and you seem to think it’s because of…

              What exactly?

              Like it seems like you’re just arguing women are bad at chess?

              • kava@lemmy.world
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                I’ve read multiple papers on this topic. I’m a 2000 rated player and have tutored girls in chess. This is an interest of mine.

                There is a very large gap in performance. The research overall implies a complex variety of factors. This includes what you mentioned, along with other inequities. It also includes the fact that women players are roughly 11 years younger on average and therefore haven’t peaked yet, which will account for some.

                But there is evidence that there is also an innate biological difference. Men score better on visuospatial intelligence tests when compared to women. Chess, especially at a high level, involves a lot of this type of thinking.

                I’m not arguing that women are bad at chess. Humans are individuals and there are varying levels of players in both genders.

                Just that if you look at the extremes (which the top chess players will be) you’re going to see a higher level of males even if we fixed all of the inequities currently influencing the gender gap in chess.

                We don’t know if the 10x difference is 5% due to biology or 50% due to biology. But we know it’s a non zero number

                Essentially I used it as an example in the wider context of why we have women’s leagues and men’s league in sports.

        • JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee
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          4 months ago

          The chess one isnt quite right. There’s been experiments where if a woman player didn’t know her opponent was a man she would perform better. It’s called stereotype threat phenomenon.

          It also happens when a male player knowingly goes up against someone higher in the league than himself and he performs below his own standard average.

          Basically people in general psyche themselves out of their best performance when going against someone they perceive to be better than them whether that’s factual or not. Confidence and undermining confidence can change a whole lot about how a person does in any given game or task.

          • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            There’s an effect on both sides.

            Contrary to what people assume, aggressive chess is a good strategy.

            Due to a lot of factors I don’t really want to get into, most chess players think men are naturally better than women.

            So a woman who thinks she’s playing a man is immediately on the defense, and a man who thinks he’s playing a woman starts out very aggressively.

            Which means a man and woman of equal skill, the man will likely win.

            It’s called stereotype difference and it’s not just chess related.

            I don’t know why people always pick chess because there’s no physical difference while ignoring the mind games we even play on ourselves in those situations.

            Just people completely ignorant of what they’re talking about and grasping at straws to find something that agrees with them

            https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797620924051

          • kava@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            You think that accounts for the differences? 42 of 2500 grandmasters are women because all the women are scared and intimidated of the men?

            Maybe this plays some small effect but I doubt it’s statistically significant enough in this context

            Like you said, it happens to men playing higher rated men. In order to go up in ranking, you need to play and beat progressively higher rated opponents.

            By the very nature of being a high level player, that player would have had to go through that.

            • JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee
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              It’s a phenomenon that’s been observed across multiple sports, not just between men and women chess players. It’s particularly poignant in men vs women’s chess… because of people repeatedly telling women they are inherently worse than men. Like you are doing right now.

              There’s been multiple studies on this. So yes, I side with the data that stereotype threat phenomenon has a significant impact on women’s performance in chess against men.

              • kava@lemmy.world
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                Show me. Link me a couple.

                I don’t think this effect can account for more than a small fraction of the difference. Let’s look at the research. I couldn’t find anything from a quick search but maybe I’m using wrong terms.

              • LordGimp@lemm.ee
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                4 months ago

                The bigger difference imo is the brain development due to hormones in the womb. Old TLC program had a whole section on this suggesting it’s why STEM fields are generally male dominated. Turns out hormones that determine biological gender also very much effect the development of the brain, and the male chemicals tend to develop the spatial reasoning part of the brain faster/more thoroughly than those who get don’t get the male chemicals and stay female. This average higher spatial reasoning capacity creates an advantage in tasks or objectives where complex visualizations are necessary, like visualizing chess moves in your head.

                It’s not some massive, overwhelming difference, but it’s enough to tilt the table. Play out that average enough and you have 42 women out of 2500 chess grandmasters

                • zbyte64@awful.systems
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                  4 months ago

                  TLC is name I have not heard on a long time. Did they really use the term “biological gender”?

      • vxx@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I think it was called soccer before football. The Englishman brought the term soccer to the US.

        • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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          4 months ago

          First England made football.

          But they never set the rules, every English school had their own rules, so you went by “home teams rules”.

          The biggest difference was if you could.pick the ball up like in Rugby (the school). To clarify during scheduling, that became known as “rugby football”.

          It didn’t make sense to call non hand football “football” so it became “soccer football”.

          Eventually they both dropped the redundant football. Then for some weird ass reason I still don’t understand, England made soccer just football and then centuries later gets mad at anyone still using the name “soccer” that they invented for the sport.

          • EnderMB@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            To be fair, the English invented English, so they kinda called most things in that language what it’s called…

            The soccer/football argument is a little silly. It’s been called football in the UK, and many parts of the world for the better part of a full century. Call it soccer if you want, many counties have their own translation for football, or they use a different word when they have their own version of football that they like.

            • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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              4 months ago

              No one is trying to make England call it soccer again…

              But the places that use soccer are the places settled by the British when they still called it soccer.

              So it doesn’t make sense why the modern Brits who don’t remember soccer are so mad when we call soccer football just soccer like we literally always have.

  • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    The issue isn’t gender. Gender is a social construct. The issue is sex. Female sports were always intended to be for female athletes. Female athletes who choose to play female sports to have a more level playing field and to play against other female athletes find it unfair to be forced to play against male athletes playing female sports. Trans women are women but they aren’t female.

    • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
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      4 months ago

      Nah, that’s simply not true if you look at the actual data about how well trans athletes perform.

      • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        What’s not true? That trans women aren’t female? That’s undeniably true. That female atheletes who choose to play female sports to have a more even playing field and to play against other female atheletes find being forced to play against male atheletes unfair? That’s undeniably true as well. That female sports were intented for female atheletes? That’s undeniably true. That gender is a social construct? I mean…that’s a central pillar of the platform so we have to agree that that’s true.

        Your beliefs don’t change reality and simply waving your hand in the air and declaring undeniable truths to be untrue does NOT make them untrue.

        • petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          4 months ago

          that’s a central pillar of the platform so we have to agree that that’s true.

          Watch out, man. The bees are starting to pollinate your mind. You should probably take another shower.

        • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
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          4 months ago

          That cis women playing against trans women is unfair. As said above, the actual data proves that this is not the case. Of course it’s undeniably true that reactionary dudes (and maybe even women) feel like things are unfair, but the actual facts invalidate that feeling.

          The discretized, simplified middle school biology you’re invoking here is simply not a precise enough model to depict reality.

          Trans women aren’t “male” from a muscle development perspective, as they don’t have a male hormone profile lol.

          • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            Go back and point to ANYWHERE that I said that it was unfair for trans women atheletes to play against female atheletes. I’ll wait…

            No? I didn’t say that. You make that up. What I said was that female atheletes who choose to play female sports to have a more level playing field and to play against other female athelets feel that it’s unfrair to be forced to play against male atheletes playing female sports.

            THAT is absolutely undeniably true.

            Female atheletes understandably feel that it is unfair to have male atheletes breaking female atheletic records by such margins that no female athelete will ever be able to break them.

            • petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              4 months ago

              What are you even talking about, then? “The problem is sex, but it isn’t sex actually”?

              If trans women can play in women’s leagues just fine (after hormonal treatment I think is the typical rule), what is “females don’t want to play with males” supposed to mean?

              Is it just the hormonal treatment? You have to understand how confusing it is to phrase this point that way.

              • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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                4 months ago

                It’s only confusing to you because it doesn’t fit into your narrative and your carefuly rehearsed arguements don’t work.

                • petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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                  4 months ago

                  My friend,

                  Trans women are women but they aren’t female.

                  Female atheletes understandably feel that it is unfair to have male atheletes breaking female atheletic records

                  where I said that it was unfair for trans women atheletes to play against female atheletes.

                  Explain to me how I am supposed to resolve these.

                  If you’re not anti trans athletes, then whatever, but come on.

    • vatlark@lemmy.worldM
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      4 months ago

      This post was reported for transphobia. Specifics weren’t given. It seems like you use the term “female” to mean someone that was assigned female at birth. I’m not sure if language is changing in this area and I certainly don’t know technical definitions. Female does seemed to be used as a gender identity as well. For example the opening paragraph here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans_woman

      I think many cultures are learning how to be more welcoming to people from all walks of life, which is great, and conversations like this one are good for discussing some of the nuance.

      Please keep things civil and assume the best of other’s intentions. We are all learning. We are all human.

      Edit: spelling

      • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        I meant “female” in the context of biological sex as opposed to the social construct of gender as in, “woman” which may be a person who is either male or female. I am FAR from a transphobe and using the word and the reporting system on Lemmy as a bludgeon to try to silence anyone who doesn’t buy into the extremist group think utterly devalues anything else that the extremists say. One of my oldest friends is a trans woman. She would VERY much disagree that I am a transphobe. My lesbian daughter whose trans and non-binary friends I interact with every day would also very much disagree.

        I would like to counter report this as a false report by an extremist pushing a political agenda and trying to silence anyone who has different ideas than them.

        • vatlark@lemmy.worldM
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          4 months ago

          It sounds like you have a lot of experiences that others could learn from, but you will likely push people away if you attack them directly (calling them extremist) rather than only attacking their positions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

          One tactic that I like is asking them questions that lead them to point out the flaws in their own arguments. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

          Would you be more or less likely to learn from someone that calls you an extremist?

          • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            Sorry…I didn’t answer these parts of your comment.

            One tactic that I like is asking them questions that lead them to point out the flaws in their own arguments. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

            They have acarefully rehearsed circular logical set of arguments that are self-confirming. I can explain and explain and explain but it doesn’t confirm their bias. I don’t expect to reach them but I may help someone who isn’t so closed minded to understand.

            My daughter goes to pride festivals every year as a vendor in the market. Last year was hopping. This year was dead. My wife and I wondered if the pushing to force biological males into the places that biological females fought for decades to get wasn’t turning a lot of people off. That would be extremely sad since the LGBTQ+ community has worked so hard to get to where it is now.

            Would you be more or less likely to learn from someone that calls you an extremist?

            I have Asperger’s so I don’t care what people call me (other than calling me a transphobe or antisemite with the new definitions written by the extremists.) If they’re making a cogent argument I will generally respond in kind.

          • Maple Engineer@lemmy.world
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            4 months ago

            I have a lot of experience and I am very LGBTQ+ friendly. I only label as extremists those who push beyond the bounds of, everyone has rights, gender is a social construct and you can identify as whatever you want into denying that male and female are things or claiming that identifying as a woman somehow magically makes you female. The whole, “You can’t question what we believe of you’re a transphobe” is EXACTLY the same as, “You can’t question the actions of the state of Israel or you’re an antisemite.” It’s utter nonsense. Those are both examples of extremism.

    • jimbolauski@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      Even then there will still be physical differences. Higher testosterone levels increase the strength of individual muscle fibers and cause the body to produce more red blood cells. Muscle in males is stronger per pound and fed more oxygen.

  • A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world
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    4 months ago

    I feel like it’d probably be better to group based on performance. I don’t see why this wouldn’t work for pretty much all 1v1/FFA/small-team sports/games.

  • Welt@lazysoci.al
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    4 months ago

    Nobody’s making the obvious suggestion to chemically sterilise all athletes.

    • JovialMicrobial@lemm.ee
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      4 months ago

      The Castrati League has entered the stadium!

      I know… i know…castrato were young boys castrated to keep their singing voices high… . but words can be updated and language fluid… right?

      • nefonous@lemmy.world
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        4 months ago

        Castrato is just Italian for castrated or neutered, even used with animals albeit mostly used referring to males. Sometimes it’s even used figuratively. It would still work perfectly with your example, I think