Reminder that this fucking moron is pushing Twitter as a financial tool. He wants you to use X like you would use your credit card.
But voting machines are insecure?
He wants you to use X like you would use your credit card.
I should have seen this coming.
That same year, Musk co-founded X.com, a direct bank. X.com merged with Confinity in 2000 to form PayPal. In October 2002, eBay acquired PayPal for $1.5 billion. (wikipedia)
Aw man, he’s trying to build Paypal? Again?
He wants you to use X like you would use your credit card.
I won’t even use xitter like social media. Why in hell would I consider it as a credit card? Oh, I get it. The target audience is the idiot army.
He’s still pissed he got booted from PayPal. He cashed in, but they didn’t let him run it.
“hundreds of voting irregularities”
Out of how many votes? Oh, enough votes that hundreds of irregularities is statistically irrelevant? Cool, just checking.
Oh, a fraction of a percent of than the thousands of manual votes that Republicans had and tried to have thrown out so that dumps could win in 2020? k, just checking.
Counterpoint: whatever methods Kemp used in GA to rig his election and erase the evidence point to significant flaws.
Even his good opinions need to overhype AI…
Anyway, we all saw that Tom Scott video, we know it’s a bad idea.
Unfortunately Republicans are not good faith actors in this space. There are many issues to discuss about voting, but I’ll just stick to one very important one, access. Republicans limit access to voting. They are not for mail in voting and continue to close down polling places forcing thousands of citizens to stand in line for hours. If they really cared, they would make it easier for the citizens to vote. But we know that’s not their goal. They win when fewer people vote. So, whatever means to achieve that, that’s what they’ll do.
If they were serious, there would a paid mandatory National Voting Holiday.
Or at leadt vote in sunday.
You’d be surprised how few people have Sunday off.
To me that’s the minor issue. The real question is whether people can vote online. Clearly they should be able to, we ought to be able to devise stable systems where they can, and in some states voters already do to some degree.
Voting booths are important. People should be able to vote how they want, and that means secret ballots. This is only possible with a secure space.
I know that Americans love mail-in voting and yearn for online voting, but mail-in is a poor substitute for voting booths, and online voting would be terrible for this plus many many other reasons.
Even if we had online voting the DRM required to make sure nothing is amiss would be kernel level and unavailable to linux users or if available, objectionable. It would also probably be tied to fucking chrome.
That sounds like a really bad idea to me. Over here the voting machines are completely offline and don’t have a hard drive. It prints out a small receipt with your vote in human readable form and as a QR code, which you drop in an electronic ballot box. As a software engineer, this feels like the only safe voting machine.
Right, but the whole process is the issue. If the vote counters lie, or use counting machines that are broken, voters still lose. Only fixing one part of the process is insufficient.
Also, a lack of voter turnout is a huge issue, especially in countries where voters work hourly jobs and polls have meh hours or bad locations. I mean, less wealthy voters, of course.
Never focus on one step at the expense of the rest. People with bad intentions certainly won’t.
I understand your concerns. With our machines the QR codes can be forged, but manual recounts are done using the human readable votes on the receipts, which you have to check before leaving the voting booth and dropping the receipt in the ballot box.
Also, we have opkomstplicht (compulsory attendance), although research shows that our votes wouldn’t change a lot if voting were voluntary. We also always vote on Sundays.
EDIT: Also, about 1 million people (more than 10%) didn’t show up to vote, despite the possibility of getting a heavy fine. Not sure how this influenced the result.
Those must be the ones he can’t pay to manipulate.
Well, he’s got that one right.
Elections should be as low tech as possible. Everything going on should be verifiable with your eyes and basic tools only.
Keep it simple and keep it monitored by at least 3 to 5 people at all times.
who cares if the counting takes a few days, as long as i can trust the results.
And dear fellows in the USA, for the love of god, move the voting day to a Sunday already.
Check this article out, might change your mind: https://archive.is/UCAKM
If you get an RSA receipt, it can be brute forced (in some years), if you don’t you can’t be sure it was counted.
If you get coerced into voting a certain way on paper and taking a photograph*, the coercing person needs to be in the toom to make sure you don’t mark, take a photo, spoil and vote differently. With a receipt you can coerce the receipt, wait some time and buy some computing power to decrypt the vote later.
* secretly as it’s illegal/vote spoiling for obvious reasons
who cares if the counting takes a few days, as long as i can trust the results.
I’ve never heard of in-person stations counting for longer than 6 hours.
move the voting day to a Sunday already.
It isn’t already? Then USA gets “worse than Russia” award again.
Counterpoint: There’s a big difference between electronic voting machines and electronic counting machines.
The way we do elections in Canada, your vote is made on paper. The paper ballots are fed though electronic counting machines to get the initial tally, but the paper record is then kept and tallied up separately to check for discrepancies. This is both fast and secure.
Electronic voting machines, on the other hand, are an exercise in absolute insanity that security experts universally agree no one should be using.
Of course, Musk is railing against them because he’s drunk the far right Kool-Aid about stolen elections, but actual smart, educated people have been saying the same thing for a lot longer.
In a smaller local election a few cycles back, I got to trial a paper backed electronic voting machine they were testing out for people who have dexterity or vision problems.
You basically got the same paper ballot as everyone else, but then you slipped it into the machine and it colored the bubbles for you after you selected the option on the screen.
Then you took your piece of paper out and handled it like a ballot filled in by hand.Wasn’t networked and didn’t see anything that could tie you to a vote.
I got to share my appreciation for the concept, but concern about difficulty verifying it filled things out correctly, and the potential for touch screens to be difficult to use or act funny, all the difficulties of ux work to handle fixing an error, and the need for the UI to be exceptionally clear, which was difficult on the smaller screen with the larger font.
I think it also has screen reader support, but I didn’t use it, so I’m not sure.Good point, thanks!
As long as the hand count is recognized as the actual result i would be fine with that.Knowing humans and our tendency to be lazy, i fear we would first reduce the redundant checks and then skip them completely. In the name of efficiency of course.
Also after witnessing the history of absolute fuckups my government (germany) produced in the field of software and IT, i don’t want them to use machines. They lost any trust i had in them with any kind of technology. Let them count and add up by hand, i’ll gladly pay extra taxes for that.
Maybe i’m just a bit to paranoid :/
As long as the hand count is recognized as the actual result i would be fine with that
That’s how it works, yeah. Since there’s unlikely to be any issue with the machine count, that works fine for getting results on the day, but ultimately you have the paper record that can be checked by hand, or run through different counting machines, in order to verify if there’s any concerns.
not even joking, i find that if there’s one Twitter account to act as a definitive guide to policy, science, technology and various issues, it’s Elon’s account.
just carefully read every tweet and do the exact opposite. there’s no way you can go wrong with it.
Broken clock this time though. Electronic voting is risky.
Can’t election committees call recount anyway?
EVMs, especially those, that do not connect to the internet, are fine. Online voting on the other hand…
I think in year 2024 we should be able to vote using a fucking app. No gerrymandering, everyone 18 our older automatically registered to vote.
If we could do that we never see another Republican in office again. Add rank choice voting and we might even have people who give a shit and can fix this country.
I think in year 2024 we should be able to vote using a fucking app.
Putin approves.
Please don’t do this on country scale. Relevant xkcd.
No gerrymandering,
Agreed. That’s fucked.
everyone 18 our older automatically registered to vote.
USA has another “worse that Russia” award here.
Add rank choice voting and we might even have people who give a shit and can fix this country.
Last step would be removal of Iron Throne(presidency) and USA becoming United Soviet States of America.
Fuck you. You think rank choice voting and automatic registration are bad?
Fuck you. You think rank choice voting and automatic registration are bad?
You attribute statement to me, that I didn’t say. Very manipulative.
I said that after implementing RCV there are other things to improve. Like removal of post, that concentrates obscene amount of power.
Sorry sounded like you were saying these things would lead us there.
So short answer is no. It is wierd to me you don’t have automatic registration.
Nope they actually do everything they can to keep us from voting. Republicans wouldn’t win another wise.
100%
I can do my banking, file my taxes, access my social security, make changes to practically any national database, apply for citizenship, all online and secure.
But for some reason I can’t vote online.
GTFOOH
I want to be able to vote online, too, but then I think about how easy it is to falsify your identify online vs in person and I don’t know how it could work without introducing a new level of probable fraud.
I’m confident that if done correctly we can make it work. Like I said it would keep Republicans from ever winning again so be impossible to get our politicians to put money into a secure app that allow us to easily vote.
Barring that we should eliminate gerrymandering and electoral collge and make automatic registration for anyone over 18.
We know for a fact they can do that because they just did it with the draft.
Software guy here. I’d like a paper ballot. If it’s possible, it wouldn’t be done correctly anyway.
We really need positive digital ID. The US DoD has the right idea with the CAC, though really it’s just a digital certificate issued by the government. The smartcard format is convenient for being wallet-able but there’s plenty of other form factors for these things these days.
It amazes me that we as a society do official, important real-life things on the Internet with no way to validate our identity.
I even cringe a bit anytime someone tells me to DocuSign. Buying my house was a trip, especially all the forms that took place before closing. Like, it’s great that I’m signing these things digitally, but there’s still no proof that I’m the one signing these. I’m not in the presence of a notary, lawyer, or any sort of witness. I’m just clicking a link on an email and drawing my finger on the screen. That could, theoretically, be anybody who gains access to my email, with or without my permission.
But, if I’m signing with a certificate, I have provided a PIN or password to unlock this device I carry on my person, that a trusted third party had given me when proved that I am who I say I am, in person. It’s a solid technology and it really needs way better adoption.
But muh mark of the beast!
I docusign for our house and my land. I done that a lot. If I remember correctly you do have to sign up and there lots of hoops there. But never thought of it like that.
I just saying it should be easy to vote bullshit they know who are legal citizens and who are not, no matter what they say.
Hell make it where I can go online fill in all my information and automatically every time voting is taken place in my area I received a package in the mail. We fill it out vote and mail it back.
Federal holiday on voting, and automatic registration.
Hell make it where I can go online fill in all my information and automatically every time voting is taken place in my area I received a package in the mail. We fill it out vote and mail it back.
This is exactly how it works in Washington state. You get the ballot in the mail, fill it out, seal it up, and mail it back or drop it off in a drop box. It’s worked great for years.
I agree. While we’re at it, we can also make election day a holiday and require employers to give workers at least a paid half-day off so that they can vote, and create a citizenship ID that is free and easy to get rather than using ID with requirements like a driver’s license. Then maybe we can try out ranked choice voting and eliminate the electoral college. You know, since we want the election to be fair.
You’ve achieved Canada.
We literally have none of those things.
Edit: except perhaps the citizenship certificate but I’ve never seen one before, but yeah they exist. We don’t have ranked voting, and elections aren’t holidays, although your employer must give you paid time off to vote, like 3 hours, and there are exceptions of course, like truckers for some reason don’t get the time off.
and create a citizenship ID that is free and easy to get rather than using ID with requirements like a driver’s license.
Just a heads up, these already are a thing, you still have to go to the DMV to get it since they’re the people who issue it, but they have IDs that are just “IDs” and then they have IDs that are also “drivers licenses.” The one that is just an ID like you’re talking about they just have to bring their birth cert, social security card, and proof of address like a bill or paystub or anything like that, then they fill out the info, take their pic, and voila, “Identification Card” without the driving priveleges.
People do it all the time, because without one you can’t buy smokes, vapes, booze, go to 18+ concerts, have a job in some cases, hell watch porn in some states lol, etc, anything age restricted really.
i remember reading that even those are highly inaccessible to minorities, in areas with large minority populations the offices are farther away/have weird hours/other obstacles that make them harder to acquire
I mean, they all keep the same hours in my state and it seems like more of them are actually in the bad areas (where I happen to live myself, lol) rather than making the “rich neighborhoods look bad” with all the DMV offices. I can’t speak for the entire country, but you’d think my area would be one of the worst with it if it were actually about stopping “the blacks” from acquiring them (US, South.) Also every single minority I know (which is actually a fair number, my area is diverse af,) has an ID and/or driver’s license, so they definitely can get them.
Hell I know one dude, trans, half black, dad left as a kid because he was a crackhead, grew up poor with me, current heroin addict (hope he gets better before he dies like many of our other friends,) and he still has an ID. I think it may deadname him still, but he has one. I’ve actually never even met a single person over the age of 18 without one afaik, hell I know 4 homeless dudes and they have them. One lives in a tent and the other three just have sleeping bags under a bridge and they figured it out. I mean the address is a local shelter that lets them use the address specifically for this, but they do have one.
Tbh I think the whole “the blacks can’t get IDs” thing is not only overstated, but also kinda racist, like how saying “we have to take care of women because they can’t take care of themselves” is technically “nice” or whatever because they have good intentions but it’s actually misogynistic af.
My state is similar to yours, dmv hours are same state wide and location wise they are not totally out of the way.
Same documents, birth cert, social card, 2 proofs of address.
Those requirements, while easy enough and even doable for the homeless, are harder for some than others, specifically the poor.
Those people who used shelter addresses didn’t have to pay (thats national, first time and renewals are free to homeless.) Someone who is poor but not homeless has to pay. Also poor people often leave their parents home without their social and birth cert. Or have no where to safely store them and lose or have them stolen. Also, social security cards are not assigned to you at birth. If mom or dad never filed for one for you, congrats you get to do it as a adult. This can create a whole catch 22 style loop of them getting fucked.
Anyways, I’m not explaining myself well, but yes requiring state ID (non drivers license) to vote is prohibitive to a lot of otherwise entitled voters.
I am “the poor.” Less so now, but still not “not,” lol.
As far as the documents go, yeah, you need some, and can likely get them if they’ve been lost. The alternative is me claiming to be Elon Musk, getting an ID in his name, whole ass stealing his identity to fund my life (which while that sounds funny to me is a crime lol.) Really without some proof of identity there’s no point to even have IDs at all.
State IDs are also required for another right, the right to bear arms. You can’t buy a gun in the US without an ID, and buying a gun being a right much like the right to vote, if it’s prohibitively hard to get an ID for one right so too must it be for all rights. Frankly you can kill more people with a vote, too.
https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu_voter_id_fact_sheet_-_final_1.pdf
here we go I’m pretty sure this or a related summary is what I’d seen before, it wasn’t a recent read so i might be wrong but it sounds familiar
USSA is not car-centric country, it is car-ruled country.
Ok c/fuckcars, calm down. Just because you have to get the non-drivers-license-ID at a DMV because they combine the two when it is a drivers license is no reason to pop a blood vessel.
Frankly it makes more sense to me to also offer them at high schools, but it couldn’t only be that because homeschoolers/dropouts etc, so they’d still need to be somewhere else too.
Those aren’t free, though.
At least in California I had to pay 26 bucks for mine 10 years ago
Mine was $10. I agree they should be free but let’s be real here $10-$26 isn’t prohibitively expensive, my homeless friends would beg more than that in a few hours, even if you have to save a dollar a check that’s still doable for something that by all accounts you do need, and for more than just “voting.”
So you’re saying that you believe some people should have to resort to begging for money in order to vote? I mean, I know you said you think they should be free but the rest of the paragraph makes it seem like you feel people having to pay to vote is okay.
More like “we should be helping people get IDs” but cute you ignored the “i think they should be free” for good boy internet points.
Seriously you think “black people can’t get IDs” and instead of “we should help them get them” your first thought is to feel sorry for them and do nothing other than say “well we shouldn’t have them for voting?” What’s wrong with you? Again, they need IDs for more than just voting.
Frankly, if we did provide everyone with an ID like we should, what then would be your argument against it? Would it still be racist?
Me: “I know you said you think they should be free…”
You: “…you ignored the “i think they should be free”…”
Wait, what? You’ve already started out with false statements, but let’s continue:
You: “Seriously you think “black people can’t get IDs”…”
When did I ever say that? What I was referring to was poor people that might have to decide between eating or paying for an ID. I never said that the poor people were black. That racist stuff was conjured up in your head. I’m actually offended by your assumption.
You …"instead of “we should help them get them” your first thought is to feel sorry for them and do nothing other than say “well we shouldn’t have them for voting?”
Again you’re misunderstanding (or intentionally trolling) what I was actually saying. I was saying that your opinion that it’s okay to charge people money to be able to vote was the antithesis of democracy. Everyone should be able to vote regardless of their socioeconomic status.
You: Frankly, if we did provide everyone with an ID like we should, what then would be your argument against it?
Again, I think your reading comprehension is amiss because we’ve been in agreement that ID should be free to all.
You: Would it still be racist?
I would like to once again remind everyone that I never mentioned race once. I was referring to poor people that can’t afford an ID. Someone else made it racial.
Ignored, dismissed, use whatever word you like idgaf.
If you didn’t say it reread the thread, that’s what we’re talking about over here. Dudes are posting whole ass ACLU links that actually are pretty convincing, catch up junior.
Again you ignore or dismiss the “free” part. Are you intentionally doing that or is your memory about the quality of a goldfish’s?
OH so NOW we all agree it should be free but I want to charge money? Get your fucking story straight you pompous ass.
Again catch up. But fine “if we did provide IDs like we should, would it still be classist?”
Fucking christ lmao. You ok?
NATIONALIZE TACO / DEMOCRACY TUESDAY
everything is better with guacamole
Wow, this is one of the very few oppinions me and Musk share.
@OP why add an acronym when it is just a twitter post that doesn’t even mention said acronym?
You’re not even American, you’re Swedish
Correct, but how is that relevant?
You’re saying you don’t trust our voting machines… even though you’re not American? Elon Musk is referring to American voting machines.
Electronic voting is by definition not trustworthy enough.
A working election system needs to accomplish a few very contradictory things, while the voter needs to be annonymous, the system still needs to verify that one citizen only get’s one vote, the system also need to count each vote.
In the Swedish system, on election day you go to your polling station, you get three envelopes, you go behind a screen and pick the ballots for the party you want to vote for, if you want to be extra anonymous you grab one from each party, you do that for all three elections (state, region and municipality), they are colour coded and the envelopes have a small cutout to make the color visible.
You then go behind another screen and put your ballots in the envelopes and seal them, you then take your envelopes, walk over to the election officials, hand them your ID, votes and election card.
One election official reads your name and ID number, the other finds you in the list, the first election official confrims that the second is ready, and they then say “voted white, voted blue, voted yellow” as each envelope with the coresponsig ballot is placed in the proper urn.
After the polling station closes, they deal with the pre votes and mail votes, they check all election cards against the list, and if someone has voted in person, the pre vote or mail vote is tossed, if not they are processed just as normal.
Then all votes are counted to get a total, if there are more votes than there should be, if just a few then I have heard it being resolved by tossing random votes.
Then the envelopes are opened, and ballots sorted and counted, anyone may come in and watch the process at any point.
This can’t be done on a computer in a way that anyone should trust
It’s not accurate to say that electronic voting is inherently untrustworthy. That’s a subjective opinion rather than a fact.
There are countries that have successfully used electronic voting for a long time without significant issues. Since you’re European to begin with, take Estonia for example - their system is world class. Look it up.
Voter anonymity isn’t an issue exclusive to digital voting either. Standard voting systems also have to ensure that votes are cast anonymously while verifying the voter’s identity. With electronic voting, cryptography can be used to protect voter identity and maintain anonymity and it’s very effective.
You can also use advanced security measures like multi-factor authentication, biometric verification, and other technologies. There’s a metric shitload of ways to enhance security in electronic voting.
Electronic voting can be designed to be more secure and transparent than in-person. Blockchain can create tamper-proof records and paper audit trails for verification. Anything that can’t be verified can be excluded and investigated.
It’s ridiculous to dismiss electronic voting outright because the things you are worried about can already happen in traditional voting.
The problem with electronic is that by it’s nature it can’t do secrecy while preserving integrity.
That is just not possible, and if you can have your vote linked back to you in anyway after having cast it, then the system is bad.
And this is not getting into the whole black box problem, there is no way to verify that the system is actually running the code it should.
You are trusting a black box built by other people with their own political agendas, or who possibly has been influenced by other interests.
I am well aware of Estonia’s voting system, I would never trust it if I had use it.
There is just too much money and power combined with voter secrecy involved in the election process that it can’t be trusted to software.
And on the other hand… if I vote can’t be linked back to anyone, then you have a whole other problem. So maybe voting in general is able to be manipulated no matter what.
Black box voting are designed to to be transparent and they are open source so the public can scrutinize.
Why don’t you trust Estonias voting system? You didn’t give a reason. Look up VVPAT.
There is no safe voting machines. Countries or annoying Musk have nothing to do with that fact.
What do you suggest then, since in-person voting has actually been linked to fraud and manipulation. Voting machines are perfectly acceptable.
Let’s just do a quick AI generated list of examples:
Ballot Box Stuffing
-
1948 Texas Senate Race: In the Democratic primary for the U.S. Senate, Lyndon B. Johnson narrowly defeated Coke Stevenson. Allegations of ballot box stuffing were rampant, particularly involving Box 13 in Jim Wells County, where 202 votes, all in alphabetical order and all for Johnson, were suspiciously added late.
-
Chicago, Illinois (1960 Presidential Election): Allegations persist that Chicago’s Cook County, under Mayor Richard J. Daley, engaged in ballot box stuffing to help John F. Kennedy win Illinois and thus the presidency. Investigations revealed irregularities and improbable vote counts in several precincts.
-
East Chicago, Indiana (2003 Mayoral Election): Incumbent Mayor Robert Pastrick was accused of ballot box stuffing. Investigations revealed that absentee ballots were manipulated, leading to multiple convictions of election officials for their roles in the fraud.
Ballot Destruction
-
Kentucky (1944 U.S. Senate Election): In the Democratic primary, incumbent Senator Happy Chandler faced charges of ballot destruction. Boxes of ballots from counties favorable to his opponent were allegedly thrown out or destroyed, leading to investigations and widespread controversy.
-
Georgia (1946 Governor’s Election): During the “Three Governors Controversy,” ballots in Telfair County were reportedly burned or otherwise destroyed to influence the election outcome. Supporters of Eugene Talmadge were implicated in the destruction of ballots that favored his opponents.
-
2004 Ohio Presidential Election: In Cuyahoga County, reports surfaced that provisional ballots were improperly discarded or lost. Election observers noted that some ballots from predominantly Democratic precincts were missing or destroyed, raising questions about the integrity of the vote count.
These examples underscore the persistent vulnerabilities in the electoral process and the importance of robust oversight and security measures to safeguard the integrity of elections.
I suggest not wasting my time with your AI bait
You deleted your comment after my response. Lmao.
-
Yup, mail voting every time, with dropoff locations everywhere. There’s a paper trail, so recounts can be done if we suspect issues.
I’m not worrried about voting machine fraud, I just don’t see the point.
I’m worried about voting machine fraud when there is no paper trail, since that is how Kemp stole an election and got away with it.
From what I can tell, Kemp didn’t steal the election (btw, that’s a left-leaning news source according to this site). If anything, it encouraged more Democrats to get out and vote, not less.
Then why was the server wiped, and then the backup wiped?
I was thinking of the wrong election. When the state gets sued over votes and those votes just so happen to be erased, that is suspicious af. But that wasn’t 2018. Kemp wasn’t running in the election where GA wiped the hard disks, but he was in charge at the time.
The 2018 election where he was able to remove voters from the registry and close poll sites is just standard conflict-of-interest, I suppose.
came to say that mail in voting was the most secure method.
Brazil has used electronic voting since 1997 and has had no major issues since (there was a bad history of fraud in the paper ballot era). It runs on Linux and they hold a public safety test in the year before where they test the system’s security.
It’s pretty rich that one of his stans is harping about how the Left “steals elections”, yet his guy literally tried that in the last election cycle. Then there’s also Bush v Gore. But yeah, it’s those crafty lefties doing the stealing!
Every accusation is a confession.
Or the state of Georgia’s governor race, where the server was wiped after the election, and then the backup server was wiped.
Honestly, I’m open to election reform if it means dead people can’t vote.
Dead people already can’t vote. People get arrested for using ballots of dead people already in the US.
In that case, leave voting how it is.
“Hacked by AI” fucking lol
“All my information about AI comes from watching Avengers films”
“All my information about AI comes from AI.”
