- cross-posted to:
- automotive@discuss.tchncs.de
- cross-posted to:
- automotive@discuss.tchncs.de
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Oh no! Won’t someone think of the poor automakers!
Promise?
They should be very concerned. However they have the advantage of time, place, protectionism. They already have factories and employees. The technology is known. They’re admitting they are aware of the market. The only way they can lose is if they don’t even try ….
We’ve spent years saying how short sighted they are to not be able to look ahead of the immediate term, now they’re admitting they can’t even look ahead 2-3 years
What? A full body crumple zone vehicle!? Where do I sign up!?
I’m not pro US but I don’t trust anything made in China.
We have byd in Australia, and Australia has extremely high standard car safety regulations. The byd cars pass those, so China can’t be that terrible at making stuff. Like iphones for example, i bet you have one of those.
Really? Because a simple Google proves your wrong. https://www.wionews.com/business-economy/byd-to-recall-over-16000-seagull-evs-in-china-over-faulty-software-717035
Lol OK, an OTA update is just horrendous, clearly irrefutable proof of china’s horrible manufacturing standards, It’s not like idk Tesla and every other manufacturer of cars hasn’t had to do the same multiple times already.
Maybe leave you xenophobia somewhere else or go back to reddit? Your quick google search is embarrassing you.
Wow, I show you proof you wrong and you answer is “what about them” and “your a racist!!!” Gl not being able to think, you brainrot is serious, start watching and listening to people smarter then you.
It’s laughable how you think an OTA update is proof of “horrible manufacturing standards.”
Newsflash: Tesla and almost every other car manufacturer do OTA updates and recalls all the time. It’s standard practice to fix issues and improve software without dragging cars back to the shop. Singling out BYD for this shows a lack of understanding of how the automotive industry works.
Calling out xenophobia isn’t a “whataboutism.” It’s pointing out a real issue in your argument.
And for the record, my brain isn’t “rotted.” It’s perfectly fine and capable of recognising logical fallacies and biased thinking when I see it. Instead of throwing around baseless accusations, maybe take some time to understand the broader context before embarrassing yourself with poorly thought-out arguments.
Attacking others is usually a sign of intellectual insecurities. Perhaps work on your arguments rather than resorting to name calling and straw man tactics. It’ll make for a much more credible discussion
Rofl 🤣 are you ai? You just use buzz words without any knowledge of them.
I don’t think i used any “buzz words” here, the language i used was pretty simple.
Please elaborate on the “buzz words” i have no knowledge of, and maybe expand on how you’re reaching those bizzare conclusions.
Sounds like US automaker higher prices are the actual threat.
June 11th 2024 GM announced that the board approved a 6 Billion dollar stock buyback plan.
That is a direct wealth transfer from the company to the owners.
We have met the enemy, and they are us.
The next quarter is the only thing that matters.
And this is why we will bail them out again.
That 9 billion could have been spent on making a low cost EV to compete. It could have been spent as retention bonuses for their best workers. It could have been spent so many things that would secure their future in a changing world.
I think it’s as true for government as it is for corporations. Nobody is the adult in the room.
God forbid these parasites have to compete.
Z HORROR, HORROR, I TELL U
Are you arguing there’s no competition in the US or are you arguing that China should have to compete without the subsisides?
My thesis is that China’s biz took state aid and made into something…
We provide state aid to our industry and they just sole that money, now that China is caught up, they are crying for more state aid.
Another example Intel, blows 50 billion on stoke buybacks, tax payer gives them 35 billion for fabs in US, Germany gives them 10 for one in Germany.
Clown capitalism right there.
For what it’s worth, a government can absolutely subsidized an industry in an attempt to capture a foreign market.
There’s a reason Japan and Korea have their own auto industries despite being next door to the largest manufacturing nation on earth, and it isn’t because they’re somehow making and distributing them for even less than China.
That being said, several automakers have blindfolded themselves about the type of cars people want. I do hope this threat is significant enough that automakers actually shift to mini-electric transportation options.
If not, I’d be happy enough buying a small Chinese electric even if the taxes made it equivalent to a larger “western” vehicle. Because it’s what I want to have available to me and it’s nice to fuck capitalists with capitalism.
It’d be nice if instead of putting massive tariffs, we would just subsidise production of comparable, small cars.
its less about the subsidies and more that budget buyers in the U.S in particular are very picky buyers.
while the federal/state EV tax credits, you can get vehicles like the Chevy Bolt for 20-22k. regardless the car still isnt that popular (meaning theres something specific about the car that buyers dont want).
for those buying used cars, theres not mamy reasons why someone would buy a say new 18k-20k EV that had many cuts in design vs an older premium EV. Used 2016 Model S for example can be found near 16k. its a new cheap car vs used premium car debate
this places a burden any any auto maker trying to make a budget car, because in order for it to sell well, they need to have razor thin margins, and sell a lot. failure to do so would spell the end of your compamy due to how many you produced.
I feel you strongly misunderstand the financial position of a lot of americans. They buy what they can afford, and would love a cheap new option in the market.
Yeah well, fuck the American auto industry for not joining the 21st century.
Ya if they want to survive its time to adapt and compete. This is what complacency sets up and I don’t feel bad for them at all. They saw this coming and probably just sat there expecting a bailout.
This is what happens when old fucks hold onto power and don’t change with the times.
This is what happens when the one ring of profits rules them all. US automakers don’t give a shit about anything other than their bottom line.
It’s like when they dragged their feet making fuel efficient cars after the oil crisis
I remember that time, when American car makers screamed bloody murder because Honda was killing them. Good times.
Yeah, automakers pose a threat to automakers!
Something somethi free market blah blah blah.
Death to capitalism
Capitalism is clearly going to death us first.
Why is competition for US auto makers a bad thing ?
This isn’t competition, it sounds like the CCP heavily subsidises the manufacture, in an attempt to kill the American industry off.
Thinking in decades or centuries is a very powerful tool!
The US subsidizes their EV industry twice as much as China. The real why China can do this is because the US has gutted their industrial base in favor of financialization while China built up their industrial base.
Yeah, sure - that’s still China trying to undercut and ensure the US remains reliant on them long term…
No that’s just the US not being competitive because stock buy backs and layoffs are easier than building good cheap cars.
…or both. Think about it, if what you’ve said is completely true (I don’t disagree, BTW), why would they bother subsidising?
They’re trying to ring fence the market. That the US is helping then is only vaguely related
But it’s not both. How can you produce something for cheaper with less subsidies unless your just better at it.
It’s like saying the winner of a race had an unfair advantage even after giving their opponent a head start.
This isn’t competition, it sounds like the CCP heavily subsidises the manufacture
China: “Here, have a bunch of cheap electric vehicles to replace your aging fleet of ICE engines. Don’t worry, we’re picking up a part of the tab.”
Americans: “What a great deal! We’ll buy them in droves.”
State Government: “Not so fast! This wouldn’t be fair to honest, hard working domestic car companies like Tesla and Volvo and Toyota.”
Thinking in decades or centuries is a very powerful tool!
Shame we’re only capable of thinking about the next quarter’s profits.
There’s something very amusing about the nominally communist China beating the capitalist powerhouse USA at its own game.
Large professional centrally planned economies do a better job of managing scarce resources than a pack of ill-informed and uncoordinated Wall Street Lemmings.
Sometimes. And when they dont, there is no one to stop them. It’s the age old problem of a wise despot. Just dressed in different clothes.
It’s the age old problem of a wise despot.
When you’re governing wisely, there is no need to be despotic. Conflicts and contradictions necessitate a large militant police state to keep the lower class in line. But when you’ve got generous surpluses and a rising quality of life, people are generally happy and easy to govern.
Despot means you have absolute power. It doesn’t mean you use it badly. It just means you have the potential to.
On top of the other things people are saying, I guarantee that the U.S. automakers will do a “China will take your jobs” thing if this happens.
Because they’d send them there… to save a buck.
Or rather a whole lot of bucks.
Because we don’t like free markets. We like the illusion of choice, but the security of monopoly.
Thats a new spin to me. The only thing monopolies secure is their own existence.
I do believe that is what they meant
Because “free markets, competition, being voluntary” are propaganda by capitalists using their owned media and purchased government to make its victims double as it’s defenders.
The goal of market capitalism is to end competition, manipulate the markets to your advantage using anything from bribery to cost benefit analysis of potential consequences to potential profits, and conspire with your economic sector to coerce the workers you need into accepting less.
This is just expanded indentured servitude with a marketing team.
Because the US is an authoritarian pseudo democracy being run by cartels. And free market and capitalism is a death sentence for them.
It’s hilarious to me that you neglect to mention that the Chinese government is heavily subsidizing the vehicles specifically to undermine other automakers.
Not that the US are the good guys here, but this is just more of the trade war crap between China and basically everyone else.
And a 7500$ rebate isn’t a subsidy?
It is. it’s a bit different in context though.
but the OC was trying to paint China as being innocent victims. which they are far from.
Oh yeah, that’s hilarious. China is not an innocent actor here.
Good
Or , hear me out, what if US auto makers stop trying to force overpriced oversized trash on us? Maybe try to compete?
It’s not due to a lack of will. They can’t produce cars as cheaply because they’ve spent the last 50 years closing factories and buying back their own stock while China invested in their industrial capacity.
they had decades to prepare for this. if the past is any indication they would rather milk that cow to death and act surprised when it isnt a viable long term strategy.
They’re mostly overpriced due to increase in costs of overhead. For example, we have a minimum wage.
Good luck buying anything made in the US for less money than on AliExpress.
Electric cars in the US are more expensive mostly due to higher costs of overhead. For example, we have a minimum wage, and China uses forced labor.
:-/
Is this really the same group of people that want US businesses to divest from Israel, defending products made with the slave labor of Uyghurs?
Americans are just mad that we have a perfectly good exploitable population at home.
I agree. That’s also terrible. They work mostly in farming. If you can avoid these food brands, I suggest you do so.
There are plenty of automobiles manufactured in the US, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and the UK that don’t use forced labor. I also recommend supporting those factories instead of China.
Also, your second link about Chinese retirement has nothing to do with Uyghur slave labor.
There are plenty of automobiles manufactured in the US, Mexico, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and the UK
And they’re all complicit. BMW, Volkswagon, Jaguar Land Rover all source parts from China.
In fact, the entire US supply chain is reliant on Chinese parts.
Earlier this month, Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) said it would be temporarily halting production at a plant in Kragujevac, Serbia due to a lack of parts from China, while Hyundai and Renault have done the same in South Korea.
You can whitewash your supply chain by slapping an western label on Chinese parts. But this isn’t demonstrating any kind of concern for labor rights or ethical insourcing. FFS, we won’t even let Volkswagon plants in Tennessee unionize.
Nevermind Uyghur slave labor. Americans can’t even bargain for better salaries. Its too much for our fragile economy to handle.
That was true of those brands. They’ve since been pulling out of China, leaving abandoned factories that are now being used by the Chinese market. There are still plenty of other ethical options for automobiles.
Many nations are cracking down on imports related to Uyghur labor.
In December 2021, Congress passed, and President Biden signed the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act (UFLPA) – the strongest tool the United States or any other country has forged in the fight against the atrocities of forced labor.
https://www.dhs.gov/news/2024/05/23/enforcing-uyghur-forced-labor-prevention-act
https://www.politico.eu/article/china-forced-labor-ban-europe-us-uyghur-xinjiang/
They’ve since been pulling out of China
Firstly, no they haven’t. US trade with China has only ever increased year-over-year going back to the 1960s.
Secondly, our hunger for cheap labor is sending us to penal colonies across the rest of the Pacific Rim. This isn’t something that began or ended with a single factory in a single country.
Many nations are cracking down on imports related to Uyghur labor.
They’re not. The business is just being laundered through front companies.
Upon the review of the ASPI report, Skechers said it contacted senior management at Luzhou prior to conducting two additional audits of the factory — none of which revealed any indications of forced labor. Luzhou, however, did confirm that members of the Uyghur ethnic group did comprise a portion of its workforce but were employed under compliant terms and conditions.
Shoving thumbs in my ears and saying “I don’t see the non-compliance, its all fine actually!” and letting the provisions go completely unenforced.
And that’s before you get into direct sales through Ali Baba and Temu
Again, I agree, but my comment was about automobiles. You have the habit of misrepresenting my point.
https://boydcoddingtonwheels.com/car-companies-pulling-out-of-china/
https://www.ft.com/content/d88955d4-2bc8-476e-9cdb-882ca3c3b10d
As for other consumer goods, Biden has expanded Section 301 of the Trade Act of 1974 to include more imports.
https://ustr.gov/issue-areas/enforcement/section-301-investigations/tariff-actions
Tariffs aren’t great solutions, but the only alternative would be outright banning. The latter would have a sudden and financially profound impact on American consumers.
Mention the 6Billion dollar stock buyback plan GM announced this month.
Wow, tell us how indoctrinated you are.
Do you mean informed?
In Xinjiang, the government is the trafficker. Authorities use threats of physical violence, forcible drug intake, physical and sexual abuse, and torture to force detainees to work in adjacent or off-site factories or worksites producing garments, footwear, carpets, yarn, food products, holiday decorations, building materials, extractives, materials for solar power equipment and other renewable energy components, consumer electronics, bedding, hair products, cleaning supplies, personal protective equipment, face masks, chemicals, pharmaceuticals, and other goods—and these goods are finding their way into businesses and homes around the world.
https://www.state.gov/forced-labor-in-chinas-xinjiang-region/
In other words, the U.S. content of “Made in China” is about 55%. The fact that the U.S. content of Chinese goods is much higher than for imports as a whole is mainly due to higher retail and wholesale margins on consumer electronics and clothing than on most other goods and services.
https://www.frbsf.org/research-and-insights/publications/economic-letter/2011/08/us-made-in-china/
Dude, there is just no way on earth that automakers are making razor thin margins on $80,000 F250 extended cab super duty pavement princesses that are basically just minivans in a trenchcoat.
You can buy a Nissan Leaf starting at $28k. It’s made in US, Japan, and Mexico.
Greely’s EX 30 was going to sell for mid 30k. We can absolutely compete, we just would rather not.
Past tense. They are ending the production line this year. They just didn’t have the margin.
Next would be the Mini EV. It starts at $30k. Still far less than your $80k example.
Huh what 80k example?
I’m sorry. Same thread, different commenter. My mistake.
BURN THE HERETIC
Wet blankets don’t burn well
You don’t want a giant ass pickup truck that drives like a tank, takes up 1.5 times the parking space and goes 8 miles on the gallon?
No, I want a light pickup from the 80s or 90s but with a warranty and a full size bed and no back seat. Y’know, something kinda utilitarian. A fucking Ranger is bigger now than an F-150 was in 2000. An F-150 is a goddamn SUV with a worthless 4 foot bed. What the hell is that good for?
FWIW, you can order a V6 regular cab F150 work truck with an 8-foot bed. Still costs $40k, but it exists.
Ranger and Maverick can both haul plywood sheets with a few 2x4 slats in the stamped slots on the side of the bed and some tiedowns.
I love my maverick but the above comment is correct, 4ft bed is practically useless. Minivan is much more utility than 4ft bed.
They get a lot of bribes from the oil industry. This is about sabotage, not competition.
Have they tried being competitive?
I’m super conflicted about this. I want cheap EVs, but at the same time, China is intentionally dumping their prices to kill competition so they can later jack it up.
The opposite of dumping is happening. For example the Kia EV5 is sold at [$20k in China](https://electrek.co/2023/11/17/kia-launches-20k-ev5-electric-suv-china-rival-tesla-model-y/) while the same made in China model is sold overseas [Starting at $46k](https://electrek.co/2024/04/04/kia-set-to-export-this-all-electric-suv-at-a-price-that-undercuts-tesla/)
KIA is also dumping. Those prices are not sustainable. Doesn’t make it right if others are doing it.
Well at least whatever profit Kia can’t make in China due to the low price. They can hopefully gain back from markets outside China thanks to the lack of competition driving prices down.
It won’t matter how fair things were if we are all dead.
I mean, EVs are not going to save the earth. Investments/innovations into our infrastructures will.
Nuclear power is the only thing currently that can save us. Unfortunately, we have ill-informed people not understanding what nuclear is.
I just posted this article separately, but renewables and particularly solar combined with better storage are enough to save us. https://powering-the-planet.ghost.io/untitled-3/
They’ll ignore this because it doesn’t fit their narrative of one capitalist owning all the means of power. Cool article though!
I still want my nuclear car GM!
Everyone buying cheap new cars isn’t going to be the thing that saves us.
No single thing short of abolishing the entire US Military (the singles largest polluter in the world) isn’t going to be the thing to save is. It’s about taking ALL the steps you can to make the world able to be saved. Not a great lens to evaluate personal decisions bases on if it solves the whole problem right away or not.
Arguing for everyone to go out and scrap their current car just to buy a new one isn’t going to do anything for emissions. You realize building a new car creates more pollution than just buying or using one that already exists right?
The commenter above is claiming that we’re all going to die if we can’t all go buy a new Chinese EV for $10k, which is absurd and counterproductive to reducing emissions.
Arguing for everyone to go out and scrap their current car just to buy a new one isn’t going to do anything for emissions.
Literally no one said that everyone should get a new car.
The commenter above is claiming that we’re all going to die if we can’t all go buy a new Chinese EV for $10k
No they’re saying market fairness doesn’t matter if you end up dead from climate change. Like the roughly 250,000 people a year who’s deaths can be attributed to it. Climate change is already on track to kill us, we need to actively stop it, no one thinks not being able to buy a Chinese car is going to kill them. It’s the thing that’s already killing them that we want to stop. A cheaper EV gives those who would otherwise be buying another ICE car a better option. They shouldn’t have to wait for arbitrary reasons to be able to make greener choices.
It won’t matter how fair things were if we are all dead.
What other conclusion can you get from a comment like this? “We’re all dead unless we can all get our hands on these cheap Chinese EVs.” We can’t drive two cars at once meaning we must get rid of our current vehicles, no?
Who’s going to be able to purchase these cars if hundreds of thousands/millions of union workers lose their job due to these Chinese subsidies undercutting everyone else? That has a cascading effect on the rest of the economy if you weren’t familiar with similar scenarios happening in the past like when the housing market was manipulated by banks handing out ARM loans to everyone in 2007. If you think this is all about American protectionism, why is Europe imposing the same tariffs on China for the very same reason? They’re much more accepting of climate change policy and taking steps toward a greener future. Perhaps they also see something that you’re not here.
China seems to be succeeding in EV vehicles, not just cars, airplanes too. I’m sorta pining for the days when we were talking about a North America Union. These days its all about protectionism and wars. :(
You can thank Trump for gutting NAFTA, making US companies weaker in the bloc as a result
Weaker than Canada or Mexico? I don’t think so.
Really? O well, that settles it then
