This is such a straw-man argument. I’m highly in favor of renewables, but I’m not blind to what other people think.
Say you’re someone who legitimately doesn’t believe that climate change is happening, or at least that if it’s happening it’s not being caused by humanity. (People who believe those things are definitely out there.) In that case, what’s the worst thing that can happen?
- Having cheaper energy from renewable sources?
Obviously this isn’t something that people who think climate change is a hoax are concerned about. They’re worried that renewable sources will be more expensive and less reliable.
- Never running out of oil?
People who don’t believe in climate change also don’t think we’re anywhere close to running out of oil. In fact, they think it’s the same people pushing the “climate change hoax” that are pushing the idea that the planet is running low on oil. “Peak oil” has been predicted for decades, and they just keep finding more and more oil.
- Being independent from unstable countries with bad human rights records?
The US is the #1 global oil producer. Canada is 4th on the list. Brazil is 8th. Mexico is 11th. Norway is 13th. With Natural Gas it’s similar, US is #1, Canada is #4, Australia is #7, Norway is #9. Aside from the obvious jokes about the US being an unstable country with a bad human rights record, this concern is overblown. If OPEC limits production the prices will go up, but that means more profit will flow to the US. Assuming this is meant for a US audience, that’s obviously a good thing for their economy. If it’s meant for say the UK, there’s going to be more dependence on fossil fuels from Russia, but it isn’t like all fossil fuels come from enemies of the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_natural_gas_production- Having cleaner air?
A lot of the people who are pro-fossil fuels are older. They’ve seen the air quality go up consistently over their lives. They don’t think of the current world as a hellscape with dirty air, they see it as the cleanest air they’ve ever had. The problem is that the pollutant that most people are worried about now is invisible and… unsmellable? Unlike the soot and smog that makes pollution so obvious.
- Investing in local and domestic research, education and fabrication
The US is the country that produces the most oil and the most natural gas, it also makes the most gasoline / petrol by far. Domestic research, education and fabrication is a US thing when it comes to oil and gasoline. By contrast, most solar panel components are produced in China. 96.8% of photovoltaic wafers are made in China. Wind Turbines are also largely made in China.
Sure, theoretically investment could mean that generation is shifted away from China and to manufacturers in the west. But, when was the last time the west ramped up manufacturing to compete with China in anything?
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The reason that so many people are opposed to change are:
- They’ve been convinced that climate change is a hoax. Nobody realistically knows how to fix people’s beliefs about this. And, it’s unlikely to change unless there’s a radical change in media company ownership and bias, which means it’s probably going to take decades to fix. It’s more likely that the climate change deniers will die off of old age, than they’re going to change their beliefs.
- They believe the current system works, so why change it? This is key. Even if they believed that climate change is real, it’s really hard to convince someone to change a system that works.
- They believe (probably correctly) that the current system is good for their economy. Of course, most of the profits are flowing to the rich, and not being shared with the workers. However, the current system does employ a lot of workers.
- They think that renewable systems only work when it’s sunny or when it’s windy. There’s a bit of truth to that, and for continent-wide purely renewable grid, you’d need to figure out some way of storing energy for when conditions aren’t right for renewables. But, the problem is overblown because those solutions are coming online as fast as the grid is being updated.
If OPEC limits production the prices will go up, but that means more profit will flow to the US. Assuming this is meant for a US audience, that’s obviously a good thing for their economy.
This is the only part I’d take issue with. Profits will be good for the oil companies but so many products will be affected by the price increase that this would be terrible for consumers. We’re already seeing that in food prices as transportation costs (oil) are affecting them.
Profits will be good for the oil companies
Which will eventually make its way into the US economy, assuming that the shareholders are mostly American, which they probably are. Of course, there’s a terrible problem with wealth inequality, and a lot of people who will benefit from high oil prices are the wealthy, but even the wealthy tend to eventually spend their money, even if it’s on something dumb like a penis-shaped rocket.
If it were only US prices going up, I’d agree that it was a net negative for the average American. In that case you’d just have money shifting from the average person to the oil company shareholders. But, in this case, it’s different. In this case, prices worldwide would go up, and people around the world would be paying more for fuel. That means money from around the world would flow to the US because of the big American share of the oil industry. In a fair world, the ultra-rich would pay a 90% tax rate and that money would immediately flow into the government coffers then be spent on things that benefited ordinary Americans. But, even with all the various tax dodges and so-on, it’s probably still a net positive for the US as things stand.
Right on. No matter how well meaning people may be, if we misunderstand the issues then we’re unlikely to craft working solutions.
The only comment I would add to yours is that local economies are interconnected with the global marketplace. If the price of oil goes up overseas, domestic producers will increase their prices too. Additionally, the cost of energy is baked into the price of imported goods. Even if a country were completely energy independent, a spike in the price of energy on the global markets would increase price of just about everything at home.
I’d like to add that a lot of these people work in the oil or coal industry or have family members who do. The work, as dangerous and comparatively ill paying as it may be, may be the only thing that puts their town on the map and keeps food on the table. Not seeing a way out for those who can’t or won’t be retained for another job can be pretty scary, a fear that is very much preyed a upon by conservatives.
I just learned so much in such a short amount of time. Thanks for taking the time to drop some knowledge.
“Peak oil” has been predicted for decades, and they just keep finding more and more oil.
I’ll raise one point on this. Peak Oil isn’t just a question of the gross quantity of existing oil, its about the cost of extracting a new barrel relative to the demand for that barrel. It is possible we can reach a moment in history when the value-add of a burning a gallon of light sweet crude is lower than the cost to extract it. We’ve already functionally passed that point for coal (which is why we’ve basically given up mining it, despite enormous reserves continuing to exist).
The BP Horizon spill is a great example of the consequences of “Peak Oil” as a practical concern. The Horizon rig was only economically viable because of the triple-digit price on oil, going into the late '00s. It was a largely experimental construction, given the offshore depth of the extraction with costs to match, signaling a depletion of “safer” inland wells. And the liabilities it generated (both directly from the spill and indirectly from political reforms instated afterwards and insurance demanded for future rigs) dwarfed the revenue it produced.
There’s still oil in the well Horizon had drilled and we could still conceivably build another rig to go back and keep mining it. But we won’t, because the costs exceed the expected revenues. If we ever see $200-300 bbl gasoline, a business might have the monetary incentive to return. But if wind/solar/nuclear become a cost-efficient replacement, there will never been an economic incentive to rebuild on that patch. We will have passed the point at which oil extraction makes financial sense.
They’ve been convinced that climate change is a hoax. Nobody realistically knows how to fix people’s beliefs about this.
Well the problem is that the solution is unthinkable. Most people, not just fascists but also liberals, parrot certain ingrained dogma that has been programmed into them. They are deathly scared of regulating or nationalizing news or social media and want to abdicate government power to the seemingly neutral market. Meanwhile PR agencies and think tanks deliberately crafted and spread the climate hoax lie, and that side is where the money is.
The tankies, the people previously known as socialists, know precisely what to do about this shit. Except their system is ruled by the same calculus of power and wealth. So you’d need to deliberately choose a system that will be less liberal to fix climate change and propaganda by the capital.
Fully nationalizing news would be a terrible idea. But, having an American version of ABC, BBC, CBC, etc. would be a smart move. The national broadcaster is what keeps the news in countries like the UK, Canada, Australia, etc. from going as insane as the US. Often the national broadcaster is boring and stodgy, but because they’re not profit-driven they can tell the full, true, boring story.
As for social media, you just need to mandate interoperability and break up monopolies. If you could leave Twitter for Mastodon and keep following and being followed by the same people, almost nobody would stay behind. Unfortunately, not only does that interoperability not exist, the DMCA makes it illegal to build certain tools to migrate off awful platforms. Facebook succeeded because they provided an easy migration path from Myspace. But, if you tried the same thing today, Facebook would sue you to oblivion.
For news, you could set up a trust and transfer ownership of each news station to the workers for a type of collective. Let them vote democratically how they want to run their news station or news paper. Let them elect editors and managers. Or something similar to that. Financing shouldn’t really be a problem, after all governments can print money and run plenty of ministries and agencies.
You could do the same for social media, just transfer ownership to the collective of the workers. After that it is self-governing. That would be a massive change from corporate ownership, profit optimization and catering to advertising. Of course this is unthinkable.
And yeah I like the interoperability, the EU did something like this, mandating interop for messengers. But I’m not sure it really works.
For news, you could set up a trust and transfer ownership of each news station to the workers for a type of collective.
Yeah, because if we know one thing, it’s that a group of people never has outlandish and crazy beliefs.
Financing shouldn’t really be a problem, after all governments can print money and run plenty of ministries and agencies.
Which are paid for by tax dollars. If you just print money endlessly you cause inflation, and eventually hyperinflation.
It doesn’t seem to me like you’ve actually thought any of this through.
Yeah, because if we know one thing, it’s that a group of people never has outlandish and crazy beliefs.
Yeah and that is the big lie right there. People have become so indoctrinated with the idea that profit seeking and unbridled greed is somehow neutral and can be trusted compared to things people might decide. That democracy is itself the problem, not the influence of capital on democracy. That we need to abdicate all power to protect us from the people with the crazy ideas. Instead we now get the best or worst of both worlds, capital using the most extreme beliefs to make money or gain power and social media pushing polarization for profit.
The inflation myth is a common fallacy btw. That only happens when essential goods (with “non elastic demand”) become scarce.
PS: Anyway, I did say these things are unthinkable
They can’t help but take a hit at MENA countries. Who destabilized them? They neve mention that; and as if your human rights track record is any better, just different. They also never mention that the US is the biggest producer of oil.
I can also list only positive things about a thing being argued for, while omitting any of its consequences.
Can you list the consequences or are you just giving soundbites?
What exactly are the consequences in this case?
A lot of focus and money spent on renewables that could have been spent elsewhere, like on infrastructure or welfare. Wind and solar farms take up a lot of space that could be used for other things like nature. I’m not saying renewables are bad, but it’s always a compromise on where to spend resources.
Wind and solar farms take up a lot of space that could be used for other things like nature.
Wind turbines do not take up much space, especially off shore ones.
Solar panels can easily go over areas we aren’t even using like roofs and non arable land.
A lot of focus and money spent on renewables that could have been spent elsewhere, like on infrastructure or welfare.
I’m not saying renewables are bad, but it’s always a compromise on where to spend resources.
unless we became a global leader in clean energy and our economy grew accordingly. then we would have more money for other things too.
Also i would argue clean renewable energy is a form of welfare since it would lead to better health for everyone (thus less healthcare costs), and cheaper energy as well.
muh v8 motooooooor
Everybody gather round and get a look at this idiot
There is really a strong argument that energy independence should have put renewable energy as part of the defense budget and been rolled out a long time ago if not for this stupid culture war that has formed around it. Let’s rectify that issue already.
Could you imagine if…
We would be so far ahead of everyone on this planet. it’s not even funny.
But the defence budget isn’t actually about securing the country, it’s about making sure there is conflict.
The core is about change. To accept climate change means they have to make changes to their lifestyle, and they don’t like having to change. Beyond that, it’s rationalizations and bad faith arguments from the usual grifters and corporations layered on top of that to justify the position they chose emotionally.
But then I won’t be able to race my black-smoke-belching rolling-coal truck with my manly man buddies :(
They want that mad max life style
From Lemminary’s link
An increasingly popular phenomenon at the time of the incident, coal rolling happens when a driver of a diesel truck floods the engine with more fuel than it can efficiently process, emitting a thick black plume of exhaust across the road. The emissions systems of diesel trucks are strictly regulated under federal law. But some truck owners modify their exhaust systems with illegal aftermarket parts, or fail to fix broken exhaust systems. In the 2010s, rolling coal became a kind of defiant act, an aggressive backlash against the increasing regulation of fossil fuels. People using forms of transportation that don’t burn oil—namely, those riding bikes, walking, or driving an electric vehicle—became targets. Social media apps such as TikTok helped drive the #rollingcoal trend. Videos with captions like “POV: You roll coal on every bicycle you see,” showing the engorged tailpipe of a diesel truck expelling a bubbling smoke, accrued thousands, even millions of views.
Americans truly are a different species
Where I live (Midwestern USA), there are guys who drive around just to roal coal on cyclists. It has happened to me a few times.
It’s fucking insane how those manly man with a beer gut feel endangered by cyclists. You get assaulted by a weak little wimp in his tank for choosing a different mode of transportation.
When I see hiw insanely stupid people can get I don’t believe in any hope for humanity.
I worked with a guy who got run off the road on his bicycle by a couple rednecks in a pickup truck and was severely injured. That was 30 years ago, in Texas.
Lead poisoning is one hell of a drug.
I’m convinced some of these people have some kind of brain damage.
that what happen when companies rule the country, and propaganda runs without regulation, who thought that protecting multimillionaire bribes would be a good idea
who thought that protecting multimillionaire bribes would be a good idea
The ones who made billions because of it
Actually if everything else was fixed we could probably still allow things like monster truck rallies etc right?
No reason (other than a weird attachment to breathing in exhaust fumes) you can’t have an electric powered Monster Truck.
In fact it makes a lot of sense. Can have Monster Truck rallies in indoor stadiums. Electric motors are really powerful. Monster Trucks aren’t driving hundreds of miles so wouldn’t need batteries that are all that big.
Hate to break it to you, but they already have monster truck rallies in indoor arenas. That way everyone can hot-box the exhaust.
Yeah I should have said safely have monster truck rallies in indoor arenas.
I meant like continue letting people have their hobby cars with ice, just have to regulate it somehow. This is like in a utopia where the majority of the world isn’t using ice and we have renewable energy solutions.
Rolling coal is one of the most mindbogglingly stupid things I’ve ever heard of. Truly, it makes it seem like Idiocracy didn’t go nearly far enough in their hyperbole. Nobody could’ve predicted people being this aggressively dumb.
Speaking of doing stupid shit and rolling coal…
https://www.bicycling.com/news/a60747401/waller-texas-coal-rolling-cyclist-crash/Damn that’s horrific, stupid and completely unnecessary.
Ignoring the tragedy of the actual situation, the way the title is parsed for the link implies that a diesel powered bicyclist crashed while rolling coal and that imagery makes me giggle.
I pictured a cyclist with anthracite wheels.
If someone put together a diesel powered bike that could coal out I wouldn’t even be mad
idk about diesel, but you can get a 2-stroke to run pretty dirty without much trouble
wtf is this ? a locomotive ?
Yes, in that it’s a motive for locos
Steam locomotives burn far cleaner than whatever the hell this is. An efficiently running steam engine effectively consumes its own smoke and only exhausts waste steam.
It costs the shareholders money and destroys many billionaires empires.
Educated populations tend to be more liberal, and exhibit more critical thinking. It’s not a guarantee, but it tends to form a shield against blind indoctrination and especially religious fundamentalism.
Conservatives do not want an educated population.
Educated populations tend to be more liberal
Liberally educated populations tend to be more liberal. Kids coming out of Bob Jones University, Arizona State, and Yale can be as archly conservative as anyone you see on FOX News or read the byline of in the WSJ.
Conservatives do not want an educated population.
Conservatives want conservative propaganda to be the believes that decide who is taken seriously and who is dismissed as unserious, uneducated, and extremist. There’s a rich body of conservative literature and ideology that you need to absorb before you can be taken seriously in the upper eschalons of the movement. The rank-and-file might revel in being a bunch of Know-Nothings, but the prelate class requires you to be well-versed in their dogma.
Education helps establish your priors and cements your conviction. People who don’t know anything on a subject can be easily swayed. People who have a ingested a certain quantity of coherently structured works are much more intransigent. That’s why institutions like the SCOTUS are such a joke. Its nine people who already made up their minds compromising to form a majority opinion before the case even starts, not nine idiot-savants rapidly accumulating an education on diverse subjects from a variety of experts before crafting a well-considered conclusion.
Liberally educated populations tend to be more liberal. Kids coming out of Bob Jones University, Arizona State, and Yale can be as archly conservative as anyone you see on FOX News or read the byline of in the WSJ.
The quality of the education matters. I’d argue that Jesuit priests, despite being educated in highly religious schools, tend to be the more liberal branch of Catholicism due to their emphasis on logic and analysis.
What I’m saying is that a good education is one that emphasizes critical thinking; that indoctrination is not education; and that people with strong critical thinking skills tend to be liberal. I believe that it’s because the antithesis of dogma is critical thinking. Sure, it’s not a guarantee, and the fact that Einstein was staunchly religious, and that Jesuits exist prove that you can have good logic and critical thinking skills and still be prone to religiosity. However, history shows that educated populations tend to be more progressive and less prone to falling for rhetoric and ideology.
Your point is important, though, and I’ll emphasize my comment that it’s important to distinguish between indoctrination and education. PragerU tried to call itself a university, but that doesn’t make it one; and education curriculum directed by governments tend to include a fair amount of indoctrination.
There’s a scene in The West Wing where Sam Seaborn (Rob Lowe) is talking to, I think, Ainsley Hayes (Emily Procter). As I remember it, there was a paper arguing a conservative viewpoint on something, and Sam reveals that he wrote the paper as part of a debate exercise. I always thought that was the epitome of a good education: being able to switch your viewpoint and really understand the other side’s argument to the point where you can win a debate arguing for something you oppose. It reflects that you deeply understand both sides, not just your own dogma or opinions; it reflects that your position is probably based on the fact that you’ve considered both sides and chose your position thoughtfully. A good education will force people to debate a viewpoint they disagree with; a bad one will only have them debate the position they already hold. I wish I could find that clip on YouTube; I may have to rewatch the entire series (at least up until Sorkin left) just to find it again.
Yeah, it took me longer than I would’ve thought to understand that. It’s really hard to dumb yourself down and see their viewpoint a lot of the time. Scapegoating seems to work well for these folks.
The having fewer billionaires is always left out and always the reason none of the other stuff seems to matter
Why would renewable energy necessarily mean fewer billionaires? Major solar/wind generation plants have to be built by someone and somewhere, it seems like the best you’re doing is making billionaires pivot their investments/changing which people the billionaires are.
It’s called ✨nationalised/socialised utilities✨.
Imagine not being able to even, well, imagine, a world where profit isn’t the one and only motive for human behaviour… 🙄
We made the world a better place for NOTHING?
I guess some people would lose their jobs and the economy in some areas could be hit hard
You mean those jobs in coal mines and coal factories that are literally being lost anyway because there’s a dwindling supply and the billionaires who own those companies are finding ways to automate and kick those workers to the curb? You mean those jobs? Or are you talking about the couple hundred people who work on oil rigs? Certainly you’re not thinking of gas station attendants or the guys who haul gas across the country. Because obviously they can’t get other jobs that are comparable. ಠ_ಠ
This is more of that stupid fucking fear-mongering about climate change policy. Jobs come and go. Industries close down, other industries open up in their place. That’s part of the nature of an economy. To say that people will be out of work because of X policy is and always has been a political fear tactic that stymies technological innovation and progress in favor of pushing old outdated shit that just happens to make a small number of people a huge amount of money.
It’s not stupid fear mongering when those jobs are currently being lost due to climate change concerns and a lot of the jobs aren’t being replaced and people and certain areas are being hit hard by that. You’re saying that it’s already in process so it’s fine which is just lol. Or that they can just get another jobs which is another lol from me.
Of course the people who are actually having to deal with losing their jobs or seeing their areas go through a rough change for the worse aren’t gung-ho for that change. You’d be dumb to think those people will be fine with it because “oh it’s just how economy goes” (LOL) or shit like that. Like I’m sure you think it’s a change for the better, necessary and whatnot (and I’d agree) but we are talking about seeing it from those people’s perspective.
Sounds to me like you are a proponent of universal basic income as a way to mitigate revenue loss for people whose jobs have been outmoded by a new paradigm in our energy production.
Maybe if we tax billionaires at around 90% we can actually give those people a life worth living.
I’d imagine that change should happens first before you get the support from the people being sacked now. One can dream, I suppose.
the domestic oil industry employs more than a couple hundred people. and i don’t think most people are ready to support a policy that sounds like “i want to take your job, the jobs of your friends and family, and destroy your town.” they aren’t going to vote to support progressive climate policy unless there is a solution to their very real concerns.
There are other jobs. And oil drillers/rig people are the most specialized and would have the most difficulty transitioning to another career. Which is why I highlighted them. Also, the number of people who would have to look for another job in the transition from fossil fuels is insignificant in comparison to those who will die because of climate change.
“Just get another job” - That’s sure to get people to your side.
Their jobs are going away regardless. Whether it’s now or 10 years from now the difference being that 10 years from now it’s going to be too late to do anything to stop climate change from utterly wrecking everybody’s life. Quite frankly in a lot of circles it’s considered that we are already 20 years out of date for doing anything to mitigate millions of deaths due to climate change.
Their jobs are going away regardless. Whether it’s now or 10 years from now the difference being that 10 years from now it’s going to be too late to do anything to stop climate change from utterly wrecking everybody’s life.
And that they’ll get to keep their livelihood for 10 more years. It’s easy to see why they’d go for that option over fighting climate change with their personal job loss.
There is so much work to be done fighting climate change that we could easily replace every job lost.
But the economy will have to de-grow sooner or later. It is isnt an option. Sustainability is not a choice, it is an inevitability.
There is so much work to be done fighting climate change that we could easily replace every job lost.
I’m sure we theoretically could, but I’m not confident we will.
But the economy will have to de-grow sooner or later. It is isnt an option. Sustainability is not a choice, it is an inevitability.
That’s another hard sell. Nobody wants to be the one getting sacked and have to figure out what to do
Well it’s either that or everyone dies. Pretty much the only options we’ve got. So, this may sound callous, but, that sucks.
For what it’s worth, I fix combustion engines for a living. I would likely be one of the displaced workers, maybe not the first wave, but it will trickle down. I’m not looking forward to the near necessity that I will need to adapt, but I understand what is required for the collective survival of the human race. If I were put out of a job because people have stopped driving ICE vehicles, I’d be thrilled. My monthly bills may not be, but that’s a problem I’m prepared to tackle.
Our current trajectory will get us all killed. There’s no question about it anymore. We are at a crossroads where we can choose to adapt or die and we are rapidly running out of time to choose. Those who cannot adapt will get left behind or else we’ll all go down together.
One of the rationales of sane people regarding alternative energy sources is the cost of using “more expensive” energy sources when cheap (at least for the time being), albeit more polluting, alternatives like coal and natural gas are readily available.
The argument is that if Country A switches to full renewables, in the time it takes for the prices to become low enough to be competitive against coal, Country B, which is unscrupulous in its development and continues using coal as its main energy source, would gain a significant advantage over Country A.
You could even argue that for Country B, switching to alternative energy sources would be unfair, considering that Country A enjoyed decades of rapid growth and development using cheap coal, whereas Country B would not. Since Country A won’t fully switch to alternative energy sources to maintain its supremacy, and Country B won’t change for the sake of its development, we’re effectively in a deadlock.
Personally, I think all countries should work together and switch to renewable energy sources to reduce the impact of climate change. Unfortunately, the world is not so simple, and the conflict is more nuanced than simply “keeping profits vs. creating a better world.”
If only all the countries could come to some kind of climate energy agreement. Maybe they can meet someplace like oh say Paris or something and sign an agreement like that. 🤔
It’s just long term vs. short term thinking really. And the question of who pays.
It costs an insane amount of money to have wars to secure the oil supply. But it’s not the oil industry that pays that cost. So oil is only “cheaper” from a very limited context, but in a broader context, it’s insanely expensive.
From an economic perspective, investing money into the infrastructure needed to eliminate dependency on oil is a no brainer. It’ll probably cost less than the next oil war, and once that cost is paid, there is no need for multiple future oil wars.
Given the US pays for most of the costs of oil wars, you’d think the US would be leading the charge towards transitioning off of oil. But instead there’s a lot of resistance in the US for this. There’s a strange denial that leads people to simultaneously demand the government to make gas cheaper, while also being against wars in the middle east. How do people think the government makes the price of gas cheaper?
We’re already at the point that renewables are far cheaper than the alternatives. It’s just the capital costs that are higher (compared to keeping existing FF), but that’s not a huge issue for rich, developed countries.
So rich countries can massively invest in renewables and press their advantage. Ideally, these rich countries also subsidise renewable energy in developing countries (and to some extent, they are). But even without that in many cases it’s cheaper to just skip building a whole FF industry altogether and go straight to renewables.
The argument (I say this as a midwesterner who has lots of relatives and such who are regurgitating the prepublication lines) always comes back to “the tech isn’t there yet” “you can’t recycle panels or turbine blades” “panels and turbine blades don’t last worth a damn”.
Whether or not any of that is true idk so how can I argue? My plate is pretty full on reading material.
So find the arguments they’re using and go from there.
Oil rigs don’t last forever either. Oil refineries are insanely complicated and are very costly to maintain.
Everything you own will break down without maintenance. Even with maintenance, it’ll have to be replaced eventually.
Don’t try to argue that wind turbines and solar panels are magical things that will solve all problems. Talk about them as they are… machines. But unlike the machines that run on oil, the cost isn’t dependent on resources controlled by unstable countries. They’re producing energy from local resources. No need for the government to invade a country to keep the price of oil down.
Isolationism tends to be a something people want but with oil you have to be involved with the politics in the Middle East. Sure the US might not be a net importer of oil, but if the oil companies can sell a barrel of oil to another country for a higher price they will. That’s just how capitalism works. Unless you want a socialist oil industry? If not, oil prices will be determined by the global market rate, which means if you want cheap gas you need to care about the politics of the Middle East.
So it’s a choice between the complexity of oil rigs, oil tankers, oil refineries, or the complexity of wind spinning around a turbine or a solar panel collecting photons. It’s all complicated machinery in the end, but some of that machinery means you gotta be pals with Mister Bonesaw and using the other complicated machinery (Wind Turbines, Solar Panels, etc) means we can all tell that lunatic to go pound the sand above the oil underneath it that we don’t care about anymore.
Cowboy Bebop or Firefly reference?
“the tech isn’t there yet”
tell them to get a solar quote for their home and compare it to their power bill. Very likely the monthly solar payments will be lower even with financing.
“you can’t recycle panels or turbine blades”
you can’t recycle coal or natural gas either.
“panels and turbine blades don’t last worth a damn”
neither do fossil fuels.
It’s not black and white. Renewable energy is better than burning oil, agreed.
But i.e. there is no recycling process for old wind turbines (carbon fiber) - they need to be replaced after 30 years or solar panels (composite material). And e-cars need batteries which need lithium (mines). Also rare earths are needed for generators and electric motors - rare earths are… rare and the production requires lots of energy and produces toxic waste (in China… which has kind of a monopoly on it. )
Maybe solvable problems in the long run but currently these are unsolved issues…
There is no recycling of oil refineries either. So that argument is useless. Everything breaks down.
Don’t let perfection be the enemy of good.
Hey you know which energy sources also have lots of unsolved issues with waste disposal and pollution? Fossils.
Lol, ever seen a coal disposal plant? Not even nuclear disasters look as bad as your average coal disposal plant. Any green or even “green” solution is leagues better than our current fossil infrastructure.
Also way to pick some of the worse solutions, windmills are generally just bad and e-cars are largely just car companies going “car bad for life on earth? No…it’s not…na~ah…see! Totally good now! :)”, it’s quite literally kicking a can down the road, or rather hiding from the gaze of the rich.
The problem with cars isn’t necessarily that they’re dirty, it’s that we have soo god damn fucking many of em EVERYWHERE, which amplifies all of their small issue to such a degree it makes it a leading cause of emissions among others issues. Like once we get to car infrastructure, that’s when it really takes a nose dive. It’s a wonder anything still even works…
In case of solar panels, it’s honestly not that bad, once we cut back the elephant in the room, makes plenty of space of solar production. Also nuclear should be the end all be all, and don’t give me no shit about waste storage, countries like Finland are volunteering to be used as storage, because it generates business for em. As long as you don’t store it in an old salt mine (like what the actual fuck were the Germans thinking there???), again it’s not that bad, especially compared to the elephant in the room… I’d prompt ya to look at a coal disposal plant again.
Often the issue isn’t recycling. Under capitalism, it’s not profitable. This is the issue.
There’s a massive amount of ongoing research into lithium-free batteries. Sodium-ion has gotten a big boost recently and real solid-state batteries are starting to see commercialization.
Bbbbut… cOmMuNiSm
