And somehow there’s more homeless people and vagrants
It’s about as successful as the war on drugs. Or the war on Emus.
This isn’t to reduce the number of homeless people.
It’s to reduce the number of homeless people here.
Rather than just help them (which is cheaper btw) they take services away from everyone in an attempt to make their area shitty enough they’ll go somewhere else…
Completely ignoring that they’re making it shitty for the people they want to keep too, which makes people want to leave and depressed selling prices, which can easily lead to a panic and flight from an area destroying the community.
Even from a purely selfish capitalistic perspective, it’s best to just have a fucking safety net. Beyond all the ethical reasons we should, there’s not a single logical reason not to fucking help people.
The problem is that when you do help people, more people keep showing up who want help too. There’s a good reason why a couple hundred thousand migrants have come to NYC (where I live) and that isn’t because there’s no “fucking safety net”. Frankly, I want less of a safety net here so that these people leave and the rest of the country has to do its share. I feel absolutely no guilt saying that I want either those benches a person can’t lie down on or no benches at all in the public areas I go to.
There are help-the-homeless-even-more advocates in NYC so I’m not saying everyone is a hypocrite, but I expect that the overlap between “complains about measures to deter homeless people” and “lives in a neighborhood with a lot of homeless people” is small.
There’s always some place that’s worse. What you’re arguing for here is a race to the bottom, where everyone tries to be worse than their neighbours in order to get the undesirables to go there instead.
In essentially “the tragedy of the commons” but in an opposite sense. If everyone gets worse in an attempt to get rid of “undesirables”, you just end up with everywhere being worse, and the “undesirables” still being around. What we need is for everyone to build safety nets together. That might actually improve the situation.
I recognize that this is a tragedy-of-the-commons scenario (although if everywhere is worse then at least people will stop coming from other countries to be homeless in the USA) but local action can’t prevent the race. It can only determine winners and losers.
Nobody is coming to the US to be homeless. That’s not a thing.
We’re shitty enough to our own citizens to make plenty of our own folk homeless.
You are closer to living on the street than you realize.
Nobody is coming to the US to be homeless. That’s not a thing.
They don’t intend to stay homeless permanently, but they come with no money and use the social services available to homeless people.
We’re shitty enough to our own citizens to make plenty of our own folk homeless.
There are many hard-working poor people who experience temporary housing insecurity, but they’re not the ones living on the street long-term. The ones who are usually have serious mental problems that make becoming a productive member of even the most generous society very unlikely. (They’ll also often refuse to go to a shelter because they won’t be allowed to do drugs there.)
You are closer to living on the street than you realize.
My family was poor when I was a child, although government assistance made it possible for us to pay for a place to live. (Note that I am not opposed to all government assistance.) We were close to homelessness then, and I really don’t want to end up in that situation again so I have taken many precautions. I have enough savings to live on for a long time. If I lose those, I have six people (mostly relatives) who would let me live with them for as long as I needed to. If they don’t, I have four more who would let me live with them for a few weeks. I think I could only become homeless if I got addicted to drugs or developed a mental illness that made me unbearable to be around. That’s not impossible but it is unlikely.
The answer to the mentally ill homeless problem is not enshittification of cities, it’s the creation of high quality government run long term care facilities with approprate action taken against those who abuse the residents in these facilities.
Which is helping more. It will also be cheaper than enshittification in the long run. But you liberals will never understand that sometimes you have to actually spend money on social programs instead of running to the right whenever the republicans say boo.
All your arguments are running to the right. Reagan would have been proud.
I think I could only become homeless if I got addicted to drugs or developed a mental illness that made me unbearable to be around. That’s not impossible but it is unlikely.
Please say this is self-deprecating irony.
It’s funny that my views are apparently extremely unpopular around here because they seem fairly mainstream IRL even among my friends who are all going to vote for Harris. I don’t think I would offend anyone by saying something similar at a group dinner (though some people might disagree) but I would be a little more circumspect and feel out the audience first if there were people I didn’t know. Different bubbles, I suppose…
We need a system that does not rely on threats of homelessness to motivate people.
As it is there will always be undesirables, even if the have/get to move the goalposts.
You’re pathetic. I hope that if you ever need help, you never get it either. Absolutely pitiful.
“Pitiful” implies that people would have sympathy for me. I think the word “despicable” might better express what you intend.
No, pitiful is exactly what I intend. I feel very bad for people like you.
Do you know how much your government spends on helping private companies, instead?
I’m not in favor of that either (with a few exceptions related to national security).
I say this the respect you are due. Fuck you.
Oh god forbid we create a society where thousands of people don’t need help!
The problem is that when you do help people, more people keep showing up who want help too.
Which is why if it happens on a federal level, then people don’t congregate in the few places that aren’t as worse as possible.
If we handle it on a city or even state level, then people spit out by the worst states will always migrate, subsidizing the cost of the policies for those shitty states. And providing the incentive to be as cruel as possible.
That’s the thing with the logic against it, you end up arguing that it should be done on a federal level and agreeing with the person you’re arguing with.
Always worth the time for a reply tho. Hopefully it sticks.
I agree that it should happen on a federal level, although I don’t think it will as long as cities like New York and San Francisco are paying for it. I’m arguing against people who think that New York and San Francisco shouldn’t be creating any public areas that aren’t for homeless people.
The problem is that businesses see it as a way to drive customers into their stores where they can then demand they either buy something or leave. This is end stage capitalism bullshit where they’re trying to wring blood from a stone.
But have you considered that maybe my good and just God has given me a mission to make everyone else suffer?
I’m sure it’s written somewhere in the bible. Idk I’ve never read it.
Neither have most Christians.
Yeah, but Republican voters want to hurt people who aren’t like them. How will your proposal help them do that??
No? Have a safety net? The more that die, the more theoretical wealth becomes available to them. Even if it’s homeless.
It reaches the same goal for them. That’s why it’s selfish and capitalistic, it works. It just sacrifices everything that isn’t I. It’s that doomer mentality, of why bother helping. world’s dog shit, so be dog shit.
Live your life one of two ways, how the world wants or how you want the world to be.
I want this world to be better, so I do what I can to make it how I wish it was. Trying to quit a weed addiction, so I do small shit like not litter butts, or pick up garbage I think might be cool, help animals in danger, do something when you can.
Just talk. Capitalists however profit from any social benefits because they’re pathetic cowards that need daddy’s wallets until they’re decrepit middle age men.
Ps. This is just something that makes me feel special and I don’t have many friends. The other day on the train an old black guy and an old white guy were talking about how the world is ass. There hasn’t been a good president since George Washington, not the time to enlist cause what are we fighting for. I was tired, but eventually asked why is now the wrong time if tomorrow is worse. There’s never a good time, because you aren’t trying. Anyways, an EVEN older black man standing next to me says, something about back in his day even hoodrats tried to help. Everyone was quite.
I’m visiting Naples at the moment with my Italian boyfriend, and I remarked to him that Naples has a lot of places that people can just hang out without spending money, something that the UK has lost. Part of this is due to the climate, but also corporatism hasn’t hit Italy as hard as other western countries. It really is a shame.
corporatism hasn’t hit Italy as hard as other western countries
Why did I read this?
I dunno. I didn’t read it. Did you find anything interesting?
I have no idea. I don’t think so.
to be fair, it’s the NIMBY people complaining to the state about those people, and then the ordinances being passed
Then there’s the whole corporate aspect. How can you expect corporate businesses to drive people to be in their stores if you let them loiter around outside on government provided benches? If the only place to sit is in a Starbucks and they require you to buy something to stay in the store, well…
incidentally, the people who frequent starbucks overlap with the NIMBY people in the venn diagram of people responsible for hostile architecture
Nothing is going to change until “landlord culture” is suppressed, and we re-adopt a “homeowner” mentality.
We need to massively raise taxes on residential property, but institute an “owner occupant” credit so actual homeowners don’t pay the increase. Only landlords - people who own the property but don’t live in it - will pay the increase. Residential property taxes should be the highest of all property taxes without the credit, but effective tax rate should be the lowest due to that credit. Landlords should be fighting for any way they can to convert “tenants” into “buyers”, even if that means issuing private mortgages to their (former) tenants to make it happen.
What about people with short-term housing needs? People who prefer to rent rather than owning? Not a problem: “Land Contracts” work very much like rentals, but without the annual increase that always outpaces inflation. The monthly payment is fixed for the life of the agreement.
The main difference is that after three years, a land contract automatically converts to a purchase agreement, and the previous 3 years of “rent” are retroactively converted to payments on a private mortgage. You’re 3 years into a 30-year mortgage.
That picture is a great example. Moynihan train hall is the absolute worst
Moynihan is exceptionally difficult to just loiter in (which is a weird thing to say about a place where people wait for trains) but apparently that’s what it takes to be better than the old Penn Station.
You can’t have homeless sleeping on benches, it looks bad and scares away the touri$t$… real estate agencies probably agree.
Eh, I’d rather have better places for homeless to live than in public spaces.
It’s an USA problem.
This concerns me greatly. For now we have old grandmas sitting on benches(it is scary to take away benches from them), but they won’t last forever.
Assuming Dudebro McChismo didn’t get their first. He won’t give up his seat for a little old lady…that shit is for betas.
I wish society would put more into making the world work better for rule followers instead of focusing so much on punishing rule breaking (which often punishes everyone).
I don’t think being poor should be cause of being seen to be a rule breaker.
You target poor/homeless with laws aimed to “prevent loitering”. The “rule breakers” are the people who simply are affected the most by the laws. Being poor shouldn’t cause you to break rules but think about it, overdraft fees, late fees, etc all targeted at the poor. Like someone else said earlier the punishment is aimed at a symptom not the problem. It’s why we’re all here lamenting about how ridiculous it is.
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” ― Anatole France
The word humanity or even the derivative humane, are complete falsehoods. This is humanity, cruel and selfish,dumb and easily motivated towards violence and hatred. We suck as a species.
Agreed, imagine if instead of tearing down benches so people couldn’t sleep in the park, they instead added bike lifts to help people get up a steep hill in the park or maybe a sprinkler system for the kids to play in… actually adding value and stuff
I’ve had bad feet since teen years, and I’m in my 40s now, which means sitting down once in a while is no longer just a suggestion. One of my big whinges (practicing whinging in case I ever get old) is that there’s just not damn enough public benches. And I live in a city that has public benches and has brought them back. A little bit.
It’s like taking certain types of painkillers that gets rid of the pain - you don’t feel it anymore, but it is still there hidden from you. The thing causing it is still there as well. We need the anti-inflammatory equivalent of dealing with homelessness.
They keep dealing with the symptoms of the problem but never the root of the problem.
Namely the weak, cowardly, ignorant, parasitic minority of wealthy idiots that want to horde the wealth of the world for their own short insignificant lives.
The 90s in the USA were a simpler time, but some folks got it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs-O4k9jZzE
Closing Down The Park
Blues Traveler
12:55
You should really read the politics section for John Popper’s Wikipedia page.
Oh… Oh no… Really?
Edit: I could have lived with it except for endorsing gwb. You don’t get to call yourself a libertarian and sign off on gitmo and patriot act. Those are like the difference between being problematic but principled ass and just an ass.
It doesn’t really say too much damming. You can be socially libertarian and economically left and still be a good person.
You have to remember that the democrats shot themselves in the foot with the entire rock industry when Tipper Gore waged christian housewife war on them.
You know how in the south, they closed public pools instead of desegregating because they would rather have no pools than let black people swim?
That impulse didn’t go away. And it wasn’t limited to the south and their hatred of black people.
“They Live” by John Carpenter for those thinking this is some AI generated image
There’s a few zombies in there. It’s like playing wheres waldo
Just people living their best radioactive lives and you’re mocking them?
there are places where sitting on the floor is forbidden, like big train stations in germany. I think its only houserules, but security can kick you out anyway.
