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Cause that’s all they are - tropes. stereotypes. They’re the same stereotypes that we’re recognizing as harmful expectations. When we say “men are expected to be X” that’s the same thing - the reason we’re expected to be X is because “you need to be X or you’re not a real man.”

We feel the ways in which society’s stereotype of men hurt us, and those same expectations cause harm to other folks as well. It’s fair for folks to complain about that, but it’s complaining about the stereotypes.

The left wants to change toxic gender roles, just like we do. Do you have better ideas for actually getting things to change that doesn’t involve the left? We can complain about society all day long, but actually changing it requires work. The door is open for you to join the fight and take part in the conversation - it just requires solidarity and a willingness to fight for others too.

I could see how being redirected to liberal causes could feel like dismissing your concerns. If you bring bring up an issue that isn’t being talked about, and people react with “oh. yeah we’re already working on that - wanna join?” it might feel like they’re more interested in you joining their cause than in the issue you’re raising. After all, they haven’t been talking about the issue you raised, so how can they say they’re already working on it?

The reason is that the left is fighting for all kinds of issues, and when different groups talk about the issues they face, they start to see common themes.

Conversations like “people hate you because you’re gay? People hate me because I’m lesbian!” end up with people working together under the same banner, despite the unique issues that each group faces. As more groups voice the issues they face, they find solidarity in existing banners. For example, being trans is completely different than being gay or lesbian (it’s not who you’re attracted to, it’s who you are), but gay/lesbian folks heard trans issues and said “lots of that stuff is what we’re already working on - wanna join?” This wasn’t dismissing trans issues, it was making both voices stronger. LGBT folks unite under the same banner, and issues for one group are issues for them all (do not try to minimize trans issues to someone that’s gay/lesbian).

The fact is that men (specifically cis het white men) are relative newcomers in the “getting shit on” world. This is NOT minimizing the issues we face - they’re real and should be taken seriously - they’re just new (see: women got the right to vote about 100 years ago). Folks on the left offering a “mission” are not asking you to ignore your issues in favor of theirs, they’re saying “oh dang that’s messed up. Add it the list, let’s go fix this shit.” I really like that dang dad’s focus on solidarity - We fight for them. They fight for us.

yeah well it seems that the left is rather fixated on blaming men (specifically cis het white men) as a collective, even men who fit in the marginalized identities that they say they want to protect, rather than saying everyone is getting shit, so lets work together to fix it.

Also an understandable reaction. The left often talks about “systemic” problems - things not caused by an individual, but by how things are set up. It’s not hard to see why men as a collective would be blamed for systemic problems - after all, only men could vote up until 100 years ago. But the left is realizing that it isn’t cis het white men that were the problem, since they’re also getting shit on now too - it’s the rich. It’s always been the rich. And that’s why we’re seeing “no war but class war.”

To be clear, there are still folks talking about men as a collective being a problem. My only advise is to mentally correct “men” to “the stereotypical men with traits that this person thinks negatively of” and not take it personally.

Oof yeah that was not a kind reaction. Too often people dehumanize folks they disagree with, and laughing at Peterson crying is clearly that.

Just to provide a contrast, here’s a left winger’s empathetic take on Jordan Peterson: https://www.tiktok.com/@watchfulcoyote/video/7227861727948361003

I hadn’t seen that dang dad, thanks for sharing. His videos seem like they’re explicitly not dismissing male issues though? He’s saying “these issues are real and valid. Fixing these issues is not something men alone can do.”

I generally agree that a lot of the issues men face come from the current power structure. I agree with that dang dad that the current power structure fucks men over.

You’re painting “give a man a mission” as a bad thing, but I’m not really sure what the alternative is. If there are issues men face (which there are), men need to be involved in solving them, right?

that a communist or socialist revolution would better the lives of anyone, as in history, it truly hasnt and in fact has been more destructive to peoples lives.

Things like universal healthcare and social safety nets have made people’s lives better in other countries, and would make people’s lives better here. Having accessible mental health care would directly help men.

the presumtion that men have any privilage that men have some one up over women. and have never been the victims of a society that they themselves built to benefit themselves, but has them suffering

Nobody on the left things that individual men have never been the victims of society - e.g. toxic masculinity. The whole point is that everyone is getting shit on right now.

First of all, I really appreciate the discussion here - I’m a recent reddit transplant and “what would be your suggestion for being less combative?” was such a breath of fresh air.

Frankly, women are right to be afraid of us, and if you understand and accept why then women will like you more.

EVERY woman has had MANY bad experiences with men, because some guys are shitty. Most things don’t rise to the level of being a crime:

• guy gets mad at your for rejecting him
• another follows you around in a store staring
• someone grabs your butt at a concert and laughs at you if you say something

On and on, since before girls hit puberty. Being a woman requires picking your battles. If you reject the wrong guy they might go apeshit, so you say “I have a boyfriend.” Don’t compliment a guy, because some asshole yelled at you for “leading him on.” I appreciate that you’ve talked to women about this - ask them about times guys have been creepy.

Now, it obviously feels bad to be treated as a threat, even though it’s not personal. Don’t fall into the trap of blaming women - they don’t want to be afraid of men, they were taught to be. Shitty men taught them, and they’re to blame.

As men, we need to hold each other to higher standards. We also need to empathize with women - be mad WITH them, not AT them.