Nothing is as draconian as school uniforms. School uniforms don’t solve the inequality problem at all as there are always other personal belongings where it can be demonstrated. That being said, any institution that decides what clothes someone else should or should not wear is deeply authoritarian. Of course, there may be certain scenarios where such authoritarianism is necessary. Schools however do not fit such scenarios.
Tell me you’re a parent without telling me you’re a parent.
Draconian? My kids wear a school polo over regular blue shorts and sneakers, public school isn’t like Hogwarts.
I’d much rather get them to wear that than fuck around making sure their favourite shirt is washed or having to buy some name brand shirt because the cool kids all have one.
I’m not a parent, but I graduated from highschool a few years back. Our school had compulsory uniforms. Clothes and general appearance are integral to one’s personality. After I got out of high school, I had absolutely no dressing sense. I had no idea what clothes I liked, what styles I liked, what colors I liked n so on. School was my life. Outside school, I didn’t hang out with my buddies outside of sports related activities. Hence, casual wear was an afterthought.
After I got out of school though, I began to explore and unlocked a part of my identity that had been forcefully locked away by school. Today, I don’t buy any expensive or branded clothes at all. I choose my clothes based on their color and style. I’m not the show off type in any sphere of my life, because I wasn’t raised that way. I was told “no” whenever it was necessary. You know… Parenting?
Don’t your kids do their own laundry? Also, can’t you say “no” to kids for that hypothetical expensive branded shirt?
Is it really worth stifling your kids’ identity for convenience?
Did you wear no clothes in the evening or on the weekend? I have a lot of residual shame from dressing “poor” in comparison to peers at school. Also, there’s going to be dress codes regardless, which is also stifling individuality. That is usually packaged in sexism as well.
Did you wear no clothes in the evening or on the weekend?
I did, but I wasn’t with my peers then. So I kinda didn’t have a point of reference for this. When I was with my peers, I was in athletic wear which again, the school picked out for us.
I have a lot of residual shame from dressing “poor” in comparison to peers at school.
I’m sorry for that… I’m sure there are many who feel the same as you. But is it worth enforcing school uniforms to protect these kids while stifling the identity of others? Is it worth normalising steep authoritarianism for this?
Also, there’s going to be dress codes regardless, which is also stifling individuality. That is usually packaged in sexism as well.
Exactly. All of which is wrong. School uniforms normalise bs like this, which is why they shouldn’t exist.
I’m sorry for that… I’m sure there are many who feel the same as you. But is it worth enforcing school uniforms to protect these kids while stifling the identity of others? Is it worth normalising steep authoritarianism for this?
Society already imposes a dress code. Even without laws, a person that goes against the grain will be ostracized to varying degrees. People will refuse to interact with you or refuse to provide services or prohibit you from working for them. Even the amount of clothes is enforced as you can’t even just walk around naked without consequences in most locations.
Exactly. All of which is wrong. School uniforms normalise bs like this, which is why they shouldn’t exist.
I don’t think what you’re saying is necessarily incorrect as it can be very easily used to reinforce authoritarian ideals. But most US schools don’t have uniforms but they have you say the pledge of allegiance which is way weirder in my opinion. Now, most kids mumble through and legally they can’t make you say it. But like I was saying above, if you outright refuse then you could be ostracized by your peers or leadership which is traumatizing too.
Society already imposes a dress code. Even without laws, a person that goes against the grain will be ostracized to varying degrees. People will refuse to interact with you or refuse to provide services or prohibit you from working for them.
Which is absolutely wrong. If we want to protect the liberty of all, then we must move away from such an archaic culture.
Even the amount of clothes is enforced as you can’t even just walk around naked without consequences in most locations.
This most likely will pin me as a radical, but I would argue that the right to nudity is extremely important and must be protected. Mark my words- you will see a social movement for this too once the other pro-liberty movements become successful-ish (like the LGBTQ movement).
But most US schools don’t have uniforms but they have you say the pledge of allegiance which is way weirder in my opinion.
My kid comes home from school with the most random shit smeared all over their polo. I’d much rather they fuck up their cheap polo than expensive but nice clothes they have for the weekends.
Have you considered that your kids might protect stuff that they like (in this case, their clothes?). I never gave two shits about my school uniform because I hated it. However, my favourite clothes were always in the best possible condition… cuz uk… I actually liked them?
Fine, your kids might be young/uncaring when it comes to their belongings. Even in that case, you would still need to replace the cheap school polos after they’ve been soiled, right? Who says that non school uniforms have to be expensive? Can your kids not pick clothes when they’re made aware of a budget? You could still have expensive weekend clothes while having cheap weekday clothes that your kids have picked for themselves.
Yeah you’re right I don’t know shit about my own kids. Sure I’ll try that thanks love.
Honestly I want them to be able to have fun. I want them to be able to enjoy themselves at school, get dirty and not have to think about their outfit or having the right brands or having to keep up with the cool kids in at least that one aspect. And honestly most uniforms at the primary level at least are really affordable and make the morning routine (which can be pretty fucking difficult some mornings) easy.
I don’t say this coming from a place of privilege either. I grew up with second hand uniforms. I went to public school my whole life. I had to deal with all the usual shit that everyone else does and I get some of the schools are a bit over the top about perfect uniforms (especially some of the private schools seem to be super weird about them) but as a parent, dealing with a mortgage and trying to juggle both parents work schedules, drop offs and after school sports, there are a lot of upsides to a uniform.
Okay, so sorry for being extremely rude below. This topic (about the oh so poor parents raising kids) hits home hard, and is a trigger.
dealing with a mortgage and trying to juggle both parents work schedules, drop offs and after school sports
Clothing is one of the most important factors that make up the identity of someone. Humans aren’t supposed to be stormtroopers, you know. Our clothing choices make us unique individuals with differing and interesting personalities. Therefore, if you cannot tend to these extremely basic needs because of your “mortgage and blah blah blah”, maybe you shouldn’t have had kids in the first place. They’re not puppies, you know. Kids may be dumb, inexperienced, etc., but they still share all feelings and desires like us all. And you know… why not extend the logic of “I don’t want my kids to be less cool than the pop kids” to everyone then? Let’s just have a living uniform for all citizens of the country. Poor, rich, whatever… everyone would wear the same clothes. No pop people anymore, huh. Why don’t we do that? It’s because it encroaches upon our freedom to be ourselves, which we hold very dear to us. KIDS DO THAT TOO.
Stifling your kids’ identity “because it’s convenient” is absolutely horrific. I’m not asking for you to buy expensive shit. I’m just asking you to allow your kids to have some basic human decency. And fine… You don’t wanna do that? Why force your draconian bs on other kids? Just send your kids to school wearing the same clothes. Noone would mind. Why then force other kids with parents that are willing to spend time on them to also live a life like your kid? Why should my kid dress in that ugly ass school uniform every day because you were lazy?
I absolutely don’t buy the “poor parents struggling to raise kids” bs as an excuse for shit like this. Me and some of my friends come from lower middle class families. I have seen tremendous differences in our lives as kids despite coming from similar economic backgrounds. The difference was because some parents respected their kids and treated them as independent human beings instead of cattle.
Yeah you’re right I don’t know shit about my own kids. Sure I’ll try that thanks love.
Yeah, all knowing parents like you definitely don’t know shit about your kids. Such people are too egoistic too even question their behavior with their kids. They’re too egoistic to even consider that they can ever wrong them. The kids of course, find the easiest way to combat this: dishonesty. I’ve seen so so many of my friends be a part of this phenomenon. But whatever, from your statement, you have implicitly made it very clear that you don’t want anyone else talking to you about your relationship with your kids. So whatever…
Listen… I’m not saying you are a bad parent because of the school uniform thing. It is relatively very inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I know I’ve been very hateful and inappropriate above. I’m sorry for that. You might be much better than the turds that I’ve seen as parents. What however absolutely maddens me is the approach that parents take with their kids (that you demonstrated as well). This very approach has caused a tremendous amount of pain to myself and people that I love. KIDS ARE NOT CATTLE. THEY ARE HUMANS. This approach of treating them like cattle has led to a sexual abuser working in my former school for over 20 years (he’s still working there till date, and would be retiring next year from what I’ve heard). Why did nothing happen to him? Well, because parents liked the guy cuz he would “discipline” the kids. Of course, any teacher who would discipline the kids would be hated by them, no? Hence, all allegations of sexual abuse against this guy are obviously fake, right?
This approach has led to one of my friends attempting suicide (but surviving thankfully). He skipped a grade, so we lost contact. However, from the time that we have interacted after that, he is a completely different person. I think it is because he is heavily medicated or whatever… Again, why did that happen? Cuz his dumass parents thought he was being lazy wherein he had actually burnt out from the studying (he was very smart, which made them push him a lot in academics).
So to recap, the school uniform thing was left behind in the discussion. I was very mad at you for being willing to cut off an entire branch of your kids’ identity simply because it was more convenient to do that for you. This is degrading the humanity of kids and making their rights akin to that of cattle. Also, I was pissed at the snarky “Yeah you’re right I don’t know shit about my kids”, as that demonstrated your tremendous ego, something that I’ve seen to be extremely destructive for kids (which have been me for some time and my friends).
Are you reading over what you’re writing?! You’ve come very close to telling a complete stranger on the internet that they’re acting as a sexual abuser does towards their kids. Do you know how fucked up that is? You literally know nothing about me, my family or my kids.
I’m a disaster relief worker, my partner is a teacher, we plant trees with our local community group, and volunteer at the soup kitchen. My kids help others, smile and laugh and dance and sing. They’re happy, they love to swim and play basketball and play with our dogs. They are incredible, empathetic, thoughtful and caring and you don’t even deserve to hear even those details about their lives.
Your willingness to judge so harshly based on one or two throwaway comments is beyond reprehensible. It calls to mind Elon Musk calling that cave diver a paedophile when he couldn’t get his way. I’m going to nuke my comments and you should delete yours to because nothing in this conversation has added anything of value to the world, it’s just brought more pain and vile hostility.
I don’t have kids, but I usually am always in close contact with them (babysitting, soooo many younger cousins and so on). But whatever… kids are dumb and cannot possibly have complex thoughts and emotions.
Agreed. At the my kids’ school (this was years ago), shirts and pants were part of the uniform, but socks weren’t regulated. Saw so many kids wearing goofy socks and carrying other things to just to differentiate.
The parents that had pushed for uniforms to be adopted (the principal relented to their demands while my kids were attending) admitted they mainly wanted uniforms so they wouldn’t have to deal with their children’s clothing choices/wishes. Reaction among parents was split, largely on gender lines (not the parents’, but their kids’ gender).
I had uniform shirt, tie, slacks, socks, jumpers, blazer, bag
The shoes weren’t uniform but were of very limited style.
You could pick something about wealth by how neatly kids were dressed (and the state of their clothes; the cheapest were nearly worn out), and the toys they brought to school
Hats weren’t regulated because it was the '80s and '90s and we didn’t wear hats. We had a uniform hat in our sports uniform but it wasn’t popular
Like… How is it more difficult to say “no” to your kids than changing public policy regarding what clothes individuals wear? How are these kids supposed to be responsible individuals of the future who protect freedom for all, when they are taught to obey orders about their clothing choices from a bureaucracy of old people? How is this not indoctrination in obeying authority without question?
Am I though? What are the Hijab bans, drag queen bans, etc. then? Are they simply not extensions of these policies? Making it acceptable to regulate clothing (when there is no need to do so) in schools will ultimately lead to it applying for adults as well. Which uhh is actively happening?
Nothing is as draconian as school uniforms. School uniforms don’t solve the inequality problem at all as there are always other personal belongings where it can be demonstrated. That being said, any institution that decides what clothes someone else should or should not wear is deeply authoritarian. Of course, there may be certain scenarios where such authoritarianism is necessary. Schools however do not fit such scenarios.
Tell me you’re a parent without telling me you’re a parent.
Draconian? My kids wear a school polo over regular blue shorts and sneakers, public school isn’t like Hogwarts.
I’d much rather get them to wear that than fuck around making sure their favourite shirt is washed or having to buy some name brand shirt because the cool kids all have one.
I’m not a parent, but I graduated from highschool a few years back. Our school had compulsory uniforms. Clothes and general appearance are integral to one’s personality. After I got out of high school, I had absolutely no dressing sense. I had no idea what clothes I liked, what styles I liked, what colors I liked n so on. School was my life. Outside school, I didn’t hang out with my buddies outside of sports related activities. Hence, casual wear was an afterthought.
After I got out of school though, I began to explore and unlocked a part of my identity that had been forcefully locked away by school. Today, I don’t buy any expensive or branded clothes at all. I choose my clothes based on their color and style. I’m not the show off type in any sphere of my life, because I wasn’t raised that way. I was told “no” whenever it was necessary. You know… Parenting?
Don’t your kids do their own laundry? Also, can’t you say “no” to kids for that hypothetical expensive branded shirt?
Is it really worth stifling your kids’ identity for convenience?
Did you wear no clothes in the evening or on the weekend? I have a lot of residual shame from dressing “poor” in comparison to peers at school. Also, there’s going to be dress codes regardless, which is also stifling individuality. That is usually packaged in sexism as well.
I did, but I wasn’t with my peers then. So I kinda didn’t have a point of reference for this. When I was with my peers, I was in athletic wear which again, the school picked out for us.
I’m sorry for that… I’m sure there are many who feel the same as you. But is it worth enforcing school uniforms to protect these kids while stifling the identity of others? Is it worth normalising steep authoritarianism for this?
Exactly. All of which is wrong. School uniforms normalise bs like this, which is why they shouldn’t exist.
Society already imposes a dress code. Even without laws, a person that goes against the grain will be ostracized to varying degrees. People will refuse to interact with you or refuse to provide services or prohibit you from working for them. Even the amount of clothes is enforced as you can’t even just walk around naked without consequences in most locations.
I don’t think what you’re saying is necessarily incorrect as it can be very easily used to reinforce authoritarian ideals. But most US schools don’t have uniforms but they have you say the pledge of allegiance which is way weirder in my opinion. Now, most kids mumble through and legally they can’t make you say it. But like I was saying above, if you outright refuse then you could be ostracized by your peers or leadership which is traumatizing too.
Which is absolutely wrong. If we want to protect the liberty of all, then we must move away from such an archaic culture.
This most likely will pin me as a radical, but I would argue that the right to nudity is extremely important and must be protected. Mark my words- you will see a social movement for this too once the other pro-liberty movements become successful-ish (like the LGBTQ movement).
Absolutely! Indoctrination at its finest!
My kid comes home from school with the most random shit smeared all over their polo. I’d much rather they fuck up their cheap polo than expensive but nice clothes they have for the weekends.
Have you considered that your kids might protect stuff that they like (in this case, their clothes?). I never gave two shits about my school uniform because I hated it. However, my favourite clothes were always in the best possible condition… cuz uk… I actually liked them?
Fine, your kids might be young/uncaring when it comes to their belongings. Even in that case, you would still need to replace the cheap school polos after they’ve been soiled, right? Who says that non school uniforms have to be expensive? Can your kids not pick clothes when they’re made aware of a budget? You could still have expensive weekend clothes while having cheap weekday clothes that your kids have picked for themselves.
Yeah you’re right I don’t know shit about my own kids. Sure I’ll try that thanks love.
Honestly I want them to be able to have fun. I want them to be able to enjoy themselves at school, get dirty and not have to think about their outfit or having the right brands or having to keep up with the cool kids in at least that one aspect. And honestly most uniforms at the primary level at least are really affordable and make the morning routine (which can be pretty fucking difficult some mornings) easy.
I don’t say this coming from a place of privilege either. I grew up with second hand uniforms. I went to public school my whole life. I had to deal with all the usual shit that everyone else does and I get some of the schools are a bit over the top about perfect uniforms (especially some of the private schools seem to be super weird about them) but as a parent, dealing with a mortgage and trying to juggle both parents work schedules, drop offs and after school sports, there are a lot of upsides to a uniform.
Okay, so sorry for being extremely rude below. This topic (about the oh so poor parents raising kids) hits home hard, and is a trigger.
Clothing is one of the most important factors that make up the identity of someone. Humans aren’t supposed to be stormtroopers, you know. Our clothing choices make us unique individuals with differing and interesting personalities. Therefore, if you cannot tend to these extremely basic needs because of your “mortgage and blah blah blah”, maybe you shouldn’t have had kids in the first place. They’re not puppies, you know. Kids may be dumb, inexperienced, etc., but they still share all feelings and desires like us all. And you know… why not extend the logic of “I don’t want my kids to be less cool than the pop kids” to everyone then? Let’s just have a living uniform for all citizens of the country. Poor, rich, whatever… everyone would wear the same clothes. No pop people anymore, huh. Why don’t we do that? It’s because it encroaches upon our freedom to be ourselves, which we hold very dear to us. KIDS DO THAT TOO.
Stifling your kids’ identity “because it’s convenient” is absolutely horrific. I’m not asking for you to buy expensive shit. I’m just asking you to allow your kids to have some basic human decency. And fine… You don’t wanna do that? Why force your draconian bs on other kids? Just send your kids to school wearing the same clothes. Noone would mind. Why then force other kids with parents that are willing to spend time on them to also live a life like your kid? Why should my kid dress in that ugly ass school uniform every day because you were lazy?
I absolutely don’t buy the “poor parents struggling to raise kids” bs as an excuse for shit like this. Me and some of my friends come from lower middle class families. I have seen tremendous differences in our lives as kids despite coming from similar economic backgrounds. The difference was because some parents respected their kids and treated them as independent human beings instead of cattle.
Yeah, all knowing parents like you definitely don’t know shit about your kids. Such people are too egoistic too even question their behavior with their kids. They’re too egoistic to even consider that they can ever wrong them. The kids of course, find the easiest way to combat this: dishonesty. I’ve seen so so many of my friends be a part of this phenomenon. But whatever, from your statement, you have implicitly made it very clear that you don’t want anyone else talking to you about your relationship with your kids. So whatever…
Listen… I’m not saying you are a bad parent because of the school uniform thing. It is relatively very inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. I know I’ve been very hateful and inappropriate above. I’m sorry for that. You might be much better than the turds that I’ve seen as parents. What however absolutely maddens me is the approach that parents take with their kids (that you demonstrated as well). This very approach has caused a tremendous amount of pain to myself and people that I love. KIDS ARE NOT CATTLE. THEY ARE HUMANS. This approach of treating them like cattle has led to a sexual abuser working in my former school for over 20 years (he’s still working there till date, and would be retiring next year from what I’ve heard). Why did nothing happen to him? Well, because parents liked the guy cuz he would “discipline” the kids. Of course, any teacher who would discipline the kids would be hated by them, no? Hence, all allegations of sexual abuse against this guy are obviously fake, right? This approach has led to one of my friends attempting suicide (but surviving thankfully). He skipped a grade, so we lost contact. However, from the time that we have interacted after that, he is a completely different person. I think it is because he is heavily medicated or whatever… Again, why did that happen? Cuz his dumass parents thought he was being lazy wherein he had actually burnt out from the studying (he was very smart, which made them push him a lot in academics).
So to recap, the school uniform thing was left behind in the discussion. I was very mad at you for being willing to cut off an entire branch of your kids’ identity simply because it was more convenient to do that for you. This is degrading the humanity of kids and making their rights akin to that of cattle. Also, I was pissed at the snarky “Yeah you’re right I don’t know shit about my kids”, as that demonstrated your tremendous ego, something that I’ve seen to be extremely destructive for kids (which have been me for some time and my friends).
Are you reading over what you’re writing?! You’ve come very close to telling a complete stranger on the internet that they’re acting as a sexual abuser does towards their kids. Do you know how fucked up that is? You literally know nothing about me, my family or my kids.
I’m a disaster relief worker, my partner is a teacher, we plant trees with our local community group, and volunteer at the soup kitchen. My kids help others, smile and laugh and dance and sing. They’re happy, they love to swim and play basketball and play with our dogs. They are incredible, empathetic, thoughtful and caring and you don’t even deserve to hear even those details about their lives.
Your willingness to judge so harshly based on one or two throwaway comments is beyond reprehensible. It calls to mind Elon Musk calling that cave diver a paedophile when he couldn’t get his way. I’m going to nuke my comments and you should delete yours to because nothing in this conversation has added anything of value to the world, it’s just brought more pain and vile hostility.
This reads like someone who has never spoken to a kid, much less had one.
I don’t have kids, but I usually am always in close contact with them (babysitting, soooo many younger cousins and so on). But whatever… kids are dumb and cannot possibly have complex thoughts and emotions.
Agreed. At the my kids’ school (this was years ago), shirts and pants were part of the uniform, but socks weren’t regulated. Saw so many kids wearing goofy socks and carrying other things to just to differentiate.
The parents that had pushed for uniforms to be adopted (the principal relented to their demands while my kids were attending) admitted they mainly wanted uniforms so they wouldn’t have to deal with their children’s clothing choices/wishes. Reaction among parents was split, largely on gender lines (not the parents’, but their kids’ gender).
I had uniform shirt, tie, slacks, socks, jumpers, blazer, bag
The shoes weren’t uniform but were of very limited style.
You could pick something about wealth by how neatly kids were dressed (and the state of their clothes; the cheapest were nearly worn out), and the toys they brought to school
Hats weren’t regulated because it was the '80s and '90s and we didn’t wear hats. We had a uniform hat in our sports uniform but it wasn’t popular
Like… How is it more difficult to say “no” to your kids than changing public policy regarding what clothes individuals wear? How are these kids supposed to be responsible individuals of the future who protect freedom for all, when they are taught to obey orders about their clothing choices from a bureaucracy of old people? How is this not indoctrination in obeying authority without question?
Oh my… you might be getting just slightly carried away there
Am I though? What are the Hijab bans, drag queen bans, etc. then? Are they simply not extensions of these policies? Making it acceptable to regulate clothing (when there is no need to do so) in schools will ultimately lead to it applying for adults as well. Which uhh is actively happening?