- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
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the Tiananmen Square Bicycle Massacre
You don’t get it! Deng flattened all the people with his fat cheeks, then inflated everyone back up, then cleaned up the blood and viscera but not the bodies!
Basic image analysis like this should have been done ages ago, but libs don’t care about the truth just blind propagandizing
I was honestly so surprised myself when I realized that the supposed most famous picture of the massacre didn’t show a single dead body. Just makes you think about how easily can falsehood be used for propaganda.
I didn’t know there was a video of tank man until like two years ago. It was always shown as an image with the implication he was then killed
i distinctly remember being ‘informed’ that “right after this photo, he was disappeared by the secret police and never seen or heard from again!”
Yea that was the version I was “taught”, that no one knows who is is or what happened to him and obviously that means the communist party disappeared him
I remember being sat in my classroom as a primary school kid with my teacher showing us that photo on the newspaper days after the event and him telling us to think about what happened to that poor brave man.
One of the first casualties of the whole protest was an unarmed PLA officer that was tied to a bus by the protestors and burnt alive. Then mocked and photographed. They never share that photo around though.
Not true, they do … And they claim that it’s another instance of SeePeePee violence …
Let me see if I can find the libbed up reddit thread where I saw it:
Not as upvoted as I remember, the post is a Midjourney selfie from tank man.
Westerners refuse to believe that about half the fatalities were PLA members because in their countries, the police would never be unarmed, never abandon their equipment, never hesitate to kill in retaliation.
Westerners also don’t pity the murdered PLA officers because they view them the same as their own police: violent people that eagerly abuse their power.
Imagine if BLM protestors had tied an unarmed, out of uniform, cop to a bus and burnt them alive what the libs would be screaming for. They would want outright slaughter.
I think that’s the most eye-opening thing about this “massacre”
if this had happened in the US, the streets would have run with rivers of blood. It would’ve been utterly brutal. And the US would be the one rewriting history to try and pretend it never happened. It’s always projection.
Yeah so much western propaganda is essentially just accusing this or that country of being like the USA. I genuinely don’t understand why it’s so effective
Because the other half of the propaganda is convincing people that the USA isn’t like the USA. No idea how that one works so well either thought.
The same reason why slave-ocrats said that enslaved people liked to be enslaved, but were in constant fear of revolts. They live in fear of being treated like they’ve treated others.
Word. Kent state? Armed National Guard goons in full battle rattle with bayonets fixed fired 7.62mm rifles point blank in to students. Tianemen? The majority of the PLA soldiers in the square didn’t have any weapons of any kind what so ever. They didn’t have batons. They didn’t have helmets. They were just wearing their uniforms and basically standing there. It was a show of force, certainly, but unlike anything I can think of in Western political history.
During the New York Draft Riots, the New York Times machine gunned protestors.
In authoritarian America, citizens aren’t taught the history of the New York Draft Riots and anyone who googles 紐約徵兵暴動 gets disappeared by their secret police! 😱😱
I asked an American about the New York Draft Riots once, and he gave me a clearly uncomfortable look. That said it all.
I believe there’s actually video footage of tank man climbing up on the tank, conversing with the tank commander, and then getting down and walking away.
I’m told that many people were lying prone because there was machine gun fire from the battle between the PLA and the insurgents several blocks away.
~let me put this here real quick~
I like that we have/need new books to re-report information that was widely known decades ago because of how easy it is to sell propaganda to the west. We have actual documentaries, made by the west at the time of Tiananmen, that completely contradicts the massacre narrative that was invented years later. lol. Libs really will believe anything as long as it comes from the mouth of some oligarch backed talking head.
The key reason this kind of lazy propaganda works is because people want to believe it. It leverages the latent racism and capitalist realism people have internalized living in decaying western societies. The idea that a country that doesn’t follow liberal ideology could be more successful is a complete anathema to these people.
Indeed. “The west is the best” is the prevailing thought in the zeitgeist of the west. So as bad as things can be in the west, at least they are still “the best.” But if other nations actually practice “freedom and liberty” better than they do, despite not screaming about how “free” they are all the time, it calls the whole western narrative into question. And causes a lot of cognitive dissonance. And people in the west are not given the tools they need to deal with that, so they just lash out and get angry, or find an easy excuse to ignore it.
Have you seen that chart that tracks how Americans went from credditing the USSR for making the greatest sacrifice in WWII and contributing the most to victory in 1946, to completely removing the Soviet contribution from the picture by the 80s? It’s really sad. The Red Army deserves better.
is there a tldr on exactly what happened then? there were undeniably a lot of tanks present, which is not a good sign.
I did a deep-ish dive on primary and secondary evidence for the time. Still have it in a google doc that could turn out an article.
I think the tl;dr is that the popular narrative (especially in Australia, where I live) is that the CPC bulldozed 10,000 protesters at Tiananmen Square with tanks in 1989 because they were protesting against the communist party. Guts squishing out of treads. The narrative obviously paints Australia’s largest export partner as hideously evil (and by association every socialist project. Whether or not you accept this, a lot of Australians do).
My own research (sorry, I hate this term, conspiracy theorists ruined it) has uncovered a few things that are publicly available that throw shade on this narrative:
- Most of the journalists that were actually present (I focused on Australian ones, because that’s where I live) agree that no massacre happened at the square that night. They claim to have been amongst the last to leave after the order to disperse.
- The source for 10,000 comes from two places: A journalist at a nearby hospital who estimates that 10k people could have been rushed in as casualties. More significantly, the main source for the 10k figure was an intelligence asset at the Australian Embassy IIRC who said that an internal member of the CPC had told them the 10k figure. Notably, this happened quite early in the night. This was then repeated by the Prime Minister the next day (totally to the surprise of the intelligence asset and the embassy).
- The source for tanks grinding up protesters bodies into paste come from one place, a person that the above journalists say was not present at Tiananmen Square and was in a position to flee the country a couple of hours later. Not impossible, but strains credibility. The source’s claims later influenced people’s memories of “Tank Man”, a video of a person interacting with a column of tanks for a bit before leaving. Ballsy, for sure, but he was not being ground up into paste and neither did the tank crews seem willing to do that.
- There were separate protests going on on the highway leading up to the Square. China is a big place with a lot of people, and at the time Deng was introducing market reforms. A significant number of protesters were in both events were protesting against the market reforms that Deng was introducing (allowing more free flow of Capital to the rest of China). The majority of the deaths (that did happen, I wouldn’t claim otherwise) happened on this approach. For this reason, the most senior journalist of the Australian cohort at the time regrets calling it the Tiananman square massacre as he feels it gives the CPC ammunition to discredit everything about it. He’s still alive, I have an email I need to send him, or go bother him in person next time I’m in Melbourne.
- The massacre (the references to the event that did happen) was more like a roving street battle. The first casualties were Chinese soldiers, some of which were burned alive while chained to buses and APCs. There were also many protester casualties. The CPC claims a little under 300 fatalities of the entire event, including their own troops. I find this largely plausible, or at least that it’s lower than the commonly believed 10k figure in my country by at least an order of magnitude.
- The biggest promoters of the various claims are people closely associated with the NED’s office in Beijing. I don’t know what that means to you.
Anyway, after doing this “research” I kinda figured that most people in my social circles don’t want to hear it, even though the information is very publicly available. So why bother bringing it up in normal conversation? The best you’re doing is probably excluding yourself from any conversation.
I still have the names of the journos, parties etc. in question if you want, as well as various links. I am just a little drunk and haven’t opened up the document.
I am approaching this in as good faith as possible.
thank you. you should share the document here because sources are important.
this is a pretty good summary https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/
Libs will probably lose their minds if they can’t make jokes about Tiananmen Square.
I’m probably replying to some anti-lib community, but it’s really weird coming from “/c/all” that nearly every comment has some sort of jab at “libs” for a topic that I would never associate with a political spectrum.
Fyi I’m not affiliated with any political “side” and I’m not American, so it just seems weird to be.
We are an a communist instance. American liberals (which includes both of their major political parties) are very imperialist and love to push propaganda about their enemies. It’s why public opinion for China took a nose dive in the last 10 years. Why Iran is so evil, but nobody thinks about Kuwait. Why Tiananmen square gets so much attention but the white terror receives none. China’s the enemy, and “Taiwan” is an innocent friend that needs protecting.
Being communist, we are anti-imperialist, and hate the war mongering propaganda that the liberals seem to lap up. They see this as being conspiracy theorists or contrarian. Hence the conflict about things like this.
Okay, I understand the narative, and agree that western culture has cemented certain opinions on history. But where does the liberal part come in? Maybe I’m misunderstanding that bit. On US social media there is this whole lib vs republican thing going on. In this case does lib just mean “not communism”?
To Republicans, “liberal” means communist/vegan/trans/Black/Millenial/baby killers/etc.
To Self-described Liberals, “liberal” means Non-authoritarian socialist/centrist/real patriots/pro-science/pragmatic/etc.
Basically, don’t go on US social media to see political terms being used with any significant amount of accuracy. Most Americans are so politically ignorant that, even to many of those that describe themselves as politically-minded, these labels have essentially lost all concrete meaning.
In this case does lib just mean “not communism”?
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism. Thus “liberal” is everyone who support capitalism, that is basically starting at socialdemocracy and everything right of them - which in western countries mean literally entire political mainstream.
Yeah, this is definitely better than my reply. I’m tired after arguing with the liberals all damn day. I need some cigars and brandy.
They see this as being conspiracy theorists
I personally see tankies as conspiracy oriented because they are, just like all the MAGA people, tribal apologists blind to the bad acts of their team/leaders. Do you really think Xi has the best interests of the people of China in mind? Come on. I’m not dumb enough to think Biden has my best interests in mind.
Must be nice on the holodeck.
Bit of a late reply, but why is it so hard for you to imagine any leader caring about their people? (This sounded more accusatory than I meant, that’s not my goal, it’s more of a “why is it so hard to imagine a caring leader?” not a personal attack.)
Most of us in the west have never actually had a leader who wants to help anyone other than the stockholders of big companies. So the concept of leadership that actually cares about people is entirely alien to us.
To look at it another way: Do you consider yourself a good person? And if you were in a leadership position somewhere, would you try to do the best to help out the people under you? Good people do exist in the world. Not necessarily saying Xi is one of them, just that it is possible for a leader to care about people. Power doesn’t corrupt, corrupt people are attracted to power. But they aren’t always the ones who get it.
We understand the material conditions and how that drives not only ideas, but change as a whole. For example by carefully looking at the material world around me, I can safely confirm that Xi and Biden are two different people.
The whole Tiananmen thing is so ridiculous. Chinese government’s official estimate? ~300 deaths. People who were in the square? No one died in the square, good mood between soldiers and students, soldiers asked students to leave when dickass CIA plant started trying to start a riot, students left with no problems, ~300 people were killed (including PLA soldiers, many of whom were unarmed!) in fighting several blocks from the square. Every credible source that wasn’t just making up unhinged bullshit - About 300 people died.
It’s so damn frustrating, it’s just pure, utter bullshit but libs believe it with nigh-religious ferver and certainty.
The only reason whitey even gives a shit about these dead chinese people is that they hate china so much. After all, half of them are still secretly jerking themselves off at the thought of millions of chinese farmers dying due to the Three Gorges Dam going broke.
Same can be applied to Xinjiang propaganda. “Oh, the State Department now cares about Muslim lives?”
The US led war on terror killed more Muslims than exist in Xinjiang
Muricans; TIANAMEN SEESEEPEE 10,000 dead tank jelly gutters!
Also Muricans: What do you mean Indonesia slaughtered half a million innocent people with the knowledge and support of the US government? What do you means the US and Saudi conspired to kill hundreds of thousands of Yemenis in a campaign of naked and uncomplicated genocide? What do you mean the South Korean forces murdered tens of thousands of innocent people using a pretense of communism? That’s all bullshit I would have heard about that and anyway they weren’t white so I don’t care.
Thread I wrote about Tiananmen: https://twitter.com/prolewiki/status/1666492127730098208 (Thread reader link due to Musk fuckery on twitter)
CIA-funded leader Chai Ling crying crocodile tears hoping students will be shot while she herself deadpan says she’ll be out of the country: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5__ESiklA1A. She was later extradited by the CIA during Operation Yellowbird and now lives in the USA.
I always enjoy re-watching the full “Tank Man” video, with the “brutal Chinese tanks” awkwardly trying to bypass the protestor and patiently waiting him out. I think libs just see that single frame and fill the gaps with their own experiences in their countries in thinking that the guy got ran over or something. If you try that with a secret service car they might do just that.
I think it’s something Statesians get taught in schools. In Europe we’d always heard he stopped the tanks and then went on his way but “was never seen again”, not that the tanks rolled him over or anything.
If you try that with a secret service car they might do just that.
There’s videos of NYPD just plowing BLM protesters. Amerikkkans think other places are as awful as theirs is.
Wow, straight-up propaganda. Seek the Truth, people. That event has been covered by multiple reputable journalists, from all around the world…
liberals reading
That’s funny.
It was not fabricated, it was exaggerated. Clashes occurred around Beijing and bloodshed was real. Most of them were Maoists clashing with pro market reform government.
most of them by the time the actual violent clashes happened certainly werent maoists. Yeah there was a significant % of the protestors that were coming from the left of the CPC but you have to remember that the unrest span month(s) and many cities. In Tainanmen by that point in the movement and leading to that the make up of those that stayed and engaged in lynchings and clashes with the PLA and police was solidly “pro-democracy/free-s[peech/liberalism” youth. Also western intelligence focus and assets had already zeroed in in Beijing and those elements after smelling blood from the more organic initial country wide unrest.
Nobody is denying bloodshed. There absolutely were violent protests outside the square. The claim in question is that the military gunned down thousands of peaceful protesters in the square, which so far as I know is a claim that’s exclusively made by people who were not there.
Even that is giving too much credit to the US government narrative.
There literally are all the US mainstream news outlets like CBS News who actually had reporters there at the time: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/
Also from classified US communications with assets on the ground: https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/89BEIJING18828_a.html
Funniest thing is that “tank man” photo idiots spam on Reddit all the time. Most people in the west don’t realize there is video of it, that the guy didn’t get run over. Furthermore they assume he was blocking tanks heading towards the square, infact those tanks were at the time headed away from the square to avoid engaging with armed agitators (people with guns and grenades that had killed police) in a crowded environment. Dude was trying to make them go back.
The deaths that day were people who got gunned down by the “protestors” or the police who were killed when the “protestors” threw grenades (military ordnance) into police vehicles. People that were armed by the CIA as part of a color revolution operation, one that failed because it didn’t actually have any support and more importantly because the PLA commander on the scene ordered his units to leave the area rather than responding in kind. The only actual protestors that day were communists having labor protests happening nearby and not the dancing libertine youth acting as the face of the US color revolution operation involving armed groups trying unsuccessfully to provoke the PLA soliders into responding to deadly attacks with deadly force in a crowded urban environment.
My personal opinion on the matter isn’t that much different from yours (the biggest reason being that the media blitz about the massacre seemed preplanned… It just didn’t go according to plan). The problem is that I can’t prove anything, so it’s all conjecture. So I typically leave that out. It’s already a sensitive enough subject.
On balance, it would be fair to say that while thousands of protestors were most likely not gunned down in the square itself, hundreds were being gunned down around it. So there was a massacre by the PLA, it just didn’t happen in the square itself.
If they were just protestors, why were they gunned down while the ones in the square could all be cleared out with no fatalities? Did the people who incinerated soldiers and strung up their burnt corpses leave peacefully beforehand?
So there was a massacre by the PLA, it just didn’t happen in the square itself.
Current research by the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation suggests that the massacre occured in the same place Sadaam Hussein would later store his nonexistant WMDs.
I’m bowing out y’all, it was fun. Definitely will be looking into this event and checking some references people pointed me to.
That’s dope. The one thing I always find frustrating when bickering over politics is people not even caring to read or learn more. I have a lot more respect for my friends when they do, even if all it does is give more nuance to their takes.
Hell if I never decided to read more shit I’d still be a right winger with the rest of the nutcase family.
Right, learning is always good. The thing is, every fringe group, whether it’s MAGA, anarchists, or ML or whatever, everyone wants you to read their docs.
And while I’m willing to check some stuff out, I’ve come to conclusions based on arm-chair reasoning such as “no government can ever be trusted”, “humans are fallible, and putting some of them above others is inherently problematic regardless of the system”. I’ll read but am doubtful something will be able to convince me to trust in government or someone with power.
There’s a difference from racist screeds and someone telling you to read the leaked diplomatic cables about tianenmen.
We can be critical of past and existing socialist projects, but we can’t ultimately forget that they must be supported and given grace in the face of the primary contradiction that is Global North imperialism. As long as our societies are influenced by class relations, states are going to exist for the foreseeable future. To think a socialist state shuld be abolished immediately in the context of being surrounded by imperialist predators is an irrational expectation…
Because of this, we are skeptical of the messaging coming from imperialist states. We support the countries that are attempting to progress humanity past capitalism, which is destroying us. For those of us in the imperial core, we understand that any criticisms we have of other socialist revolutions can’t ultimately be trusted. Those criticisms – whatever they may be – have zero relevance to the nations that are battling for survival in spite of the empire we live in.
We should cautiously inspect the propaganda we consume from all states, socialist or not. But we omly continue to amass reasons to be downright cynical of anything coming out of Western governments.
Agreed! Criticism of the 20th century, both it’s failures and it’s successes, is vital to moving forward! We can’t treat our past comrades as saints, nor ignore them, and they wouldn’t want us to! Imagine knowing that those who came after you refused to learn from the mistakes you made! I can’t imagine anything more horrible for someone who devoted their life to a scientific understanding of economy than people refusing to learn from observation.
Thx for your reply
. As long as our societies are influenced by class relations, states are going to exist for the foreseeable future.
IMO there’s a false dichotomy here that nearly everyone I’ve talked to falls into, that there are only two ways to move into the future, the “tankie” way (is there a non-offensive word that means what “tankie” means and isn’t specific to a tendency like “ML”?) and the anarchist way.
The tankie way is basically to unite the people, start a revolution to beat down capitalism, and form into a new authoritarian govt. but this time of the people. Somehow this new government is not going to become corrupted? And eventually no longer be needed and vanish?
The anarchist way is to unite the people, start a revolution to beat down capitalsm, and then… ???
I see fatal flaws in both of these paths that look obvious to me. To the tankies, a government not becoming corrupt? Talk about high fantasy. For the anarchists, what happens after? How to prevent warlords, or surviving capitalists from taking over again? It’s an incomplete plan at best.
My personal position is that cultural progress must come first. To tankies, you can’t force peace and harmony on hundreds of millions of people at once at the barrel of a gun. And to other anarchist, if you give millions of people who only know capitalism and exploitation sudden complete freedom as anarchist want would lead to chaos and destruction. Any attempts at revolution before the culture is ready for it will lead to protracted war, famine, etc.
So, why wait for a revolution to start building out of the ashes (which to be clear, a revolution of this scale would kill millions of people and cause massive permanent ecological damage, assuming a revolution like that could even happen in 2023 in the U.S., just the question of how to handle nuclear materials alone is daunting), we can work now to build the future from where we are now.
We can use any and all not-quite full on revolutionary tactics to weaken and destroy capitalism. (I’m not a pacifist btw, and not against all violence, I just think full-on revolution won’t work)
- The fediverse will help us make much progress, being able to talk away from corporate censorship will have an effect I’m pretty sure.
- Being a good example and helping people - so people start to see who is on their side
- Teaching people, I’m working on starting local groups to teach people how to move away from Microsoft and how to join the fediverse.
- Starting co-ops, free shops
- Garage bars with free drinks/byob, weekly block parties with free food for anyone around
- Organized community backyard farming
- Sabotage MSM
- Tons of other things
–> We need to get people to start not looking to the government for solutions and start looking to their communities by providing superior solutions. If our communist way is better, let’s demonstrate it.
Thanks for engaging but I still really don’t think you’ve fully grasp what Marxism-Leninism is. You’ve continued to mischaracterize and create strawmen out of what M-L movements aspire to do (forcing peace at the barrel of a gun??).
Yes, historically, Marxism-Leninist revolutions have relied on centralized vanguard parties, but ultimately each country where a revolution takes place, socialism will be built according to that country’s material conditions. There’s no reason why our strategies and tactics can’t adapt based on our particular situations, but we still take lessons from past attempts at building socialism. Marxism is not a dogma (although there are still those that treat it that way).
When we say a state is inevitible, it’s the recognition that a state will naturally arise as long as there are still class relations. To not acknowledge that is to ignore material reality. After a revolution, there will still be a bourgeoisie and they will still be needed to contribute to building the socialist project. People will still have cultural tendencies from the prior bourgeois dictatorship. Money will still be a thing. Imperialism will still exist. How do you secure the ground the working class has won through revolution (which is still what you’re talking about, whether you want to call it a “revolution” or not)? As long as the bourgeoisie exist, their interests will ultimately be opposed to the interests of the proletariat. How do you prevent a bourgeois dictatorship from seizing power again? You’re going to need to repress them by some means. You’re going to have to exclude them from decision-making bodies. What do you call that other than a state?
And class struggle doesn’t just end when socialists seize power. It continues. And it’s up to the masses to keep the new regime honest about it’s ideals. Of course there is always the chance a socialist government can become overrun with corruption. That is the entire lesson we’ve learned from the violent dissolution of the USSR. But that doesn’t mean we abandon the communist struggle. We learn, we recognize the internal and external forces at play, and we try to build on pre-existing theory so that we can better put it into practice.
I’ll read but am doubtful something will be able to convince me to trust in government or someone with power.
I know you said you’re bowing out in another comment but I just want to say that states are bad, all states. States do bad things in pursuit of maintaining themselves. This is true of the capitalist state. This is true of the socialist state. What matters here is who they do their bad shit in service of, what class are they serving, the proletariat or the bourgeoisie.
We are communists. We want a stateless society. We want this because we know states are bad.
I think the only real difference in our views is the classic one. I simply don’t see the dictatorship of the proletariat as not having the same tendencies toward corruption as every other. I can’t imagine an organization powerful enough to defeat capitalism willfully giving up it’s own power after it’s job is done.
It will attract psychopaths like flies to shit like every other power structure.
I would strongly suggest reading State and Revolution to understand the reasoning on the function of the DotP. It is fundamentally oriented towards the tendencies of power and people following self-interested motivations in aggregate over time. No one is talking about “giving up” anything. The proletariat is to oppress the bourgeoisie by means of more genuinely democratic governance (that obstructs the power of capital that is exerted in liberal democracies) and erode the bourgeois class over time until it no longer exists. No power is surrendered at any point in that process, but the people who need to be oppressed are decided on class lines that cease to exist by the very same process as the class is oppressed.
You can find both text and audiobook versions online pretty easily, and hopefully the most famous work of the founder of the first Marxist state is not on the same level as QAnon manifestos to you.
Idk, sounds like a Q drop
Why?
This is what tankies actually believe
those damn tankies at checks notes… cbs news?
Tankies, historians, the CIA
The Chinese government suckering you to do your PR work for them, them too
Do you on principle recoil from all evidence when the truth is convenient to someone you hate? Is it the same to believe the truth and to be ‘doing PR work’ for them?
Lol tankie says what?
Khrushchev was right to put down the rebellion in Hungary. It would have been proof to the West they could chop away the USSR with color revolutions and it prevented a second holocaust in Eastern Europe.
They don’t know anything that you’re talking about
When a baby accidentally says a real word it’s good for their development to respond
Dipshits: Uhhh actualkly tankies are bad because the USSR should have just let the fascists who had all been soldiers for the Reich ten years prior and had murdered a half a million Jewish Hungarians as well as god knows how many others re-take power and re-install the Arrow Cross party!
The one objectively correct thing Khrushchev did
most literate anticommunist
It’s true we do!
Facts and logic don’t care about your ideology!
If by tankies you mean people who have any historical literacy at all then yeah.
what the fuck is this shite, tiananmen happened you fucking cunts cry me a river
you fucking removed
Coming in screaming slurs to own the tankies
oh yes, china, the renowned ethnostate leads the way on civil discourse.
“Ethnostate”. Good lord, liberals really don’t know that words mean things.
Gonna cry about 10k invented dead people? ok, it’s good to let emotions out sometimes
Akshually sweaty, according to the intense and very legitimate research of the victims of communism foundation every one of those 10,000 theoretical victims would have had 10,000 good anti-communist childre, who would have had 10,000 children, so really the ICUP killed THIRTY INFINITY PEOPLE, including all of the neanderthals and DB Cooper!
What do you have to say to that, tankie!?!?!
thats not satirising a single talking point. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Mothers
how tf does anyome invent 10K dead people??? they had fucjing families yiu moron yiu can go ask them yiurself you degenerate shithead. stop sucking off some dictators cock
Do you know the 10k dead figure comes from a British diplomat who said “a friend told me” as his source and he later admitted he just made it up.
stop sucking off some dictators cock
Liberals and suddenly becoming homophobic when confronted with different views on geopolitics name a more iconic duo.
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds, as they say.
i have no idea if youre a man or woman, sucking someones cock is a known idiom for bejng a sycophant. fuck off with your bad faith argument. i never even claimed to be a liberal? stop larping
A homophobic/misogynistic idiom yes.
Some dipshits just made it up out of thing air way back when the whole thing went down. Like just completely made it up, along with the bullshit about tanks running over people in the square and all kinds of other BS.
Also,
i looked it up, most estimates hit the 2700-3000 range but cant be sure due to chinese censorship. theres an advocacy group by victims families to identify all the dead but it’s been halted by the ccp for obvious reasons https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Mothers
Yeah, you can. Except… 10k people, there’s actually only a couple of primary sources for that number who claim to be there. I realise that every lib expat from China will claim that they had a family member in the protests who died, but very few are willing to go on the record even with Western protection.
The thing is, the vast vast vast majority of people who believe “10k dead” haven’t engaged with primary sources (people that actually saw what was going on at Tiananmen Square). The western journalists who were present don’t believe the 10k number, even though they aren’t CPC shills.
Why am I even responding to this? I literally have been in those spaces and asked, all without sucking Xi’s dick, let alone Deng’s or whatever.
I don’t think the 10k tank murder jelly massacre guy was even in the square. All the people who were in the square report pretty much the same thing - Soldiers asked the students to leave, all the students held hands and peacefully left. The fighting was blocks away between PLA soldiers, many unarmed, and a small group of insurgents armed with molotovs and stolen guns.
you removed shithead. stop sucking off some dictators cock
Liberals really come in screaming slurs and being homophobic in a predominantly queer instance and expect to be taken seriously
Have you ever tried… Reading anything? Other than comment sections I mean.
Even western sources agree with us. The only place that continues to spread the mythological bullshit narrative that was first dreamt up about it is reddit. Everyone else, even the western press, has accepted that the Chinese narrative is more accurate.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/
The Chinese Red Cross had given a figure of 2,600 deaths. shut the fuck up??? if no massacre took place why cant chinese people discuss it?
if no massacre took place why cant chinese people discuss it?
they can, they do quite often lmao
that’s another thing you got from reddit
thats a lie, everything they can censor is censored, sure you could get away with saying it in a field in the middle of nowhere but you can get away with sayinf anythung like that https://www.nbcnews.com/video/what-happens-when-you-google-tiananmen-square-in-china-273675331595
cry me a river
your ideologues sure fucking did when no one got massacred at the tiananmen square
lmao you wanna try that again without any slurs? you forgot to put your mask on before coming into the discussion, dronie
what mask? i dont care if your feelings are in a twist youre literally denying the deaths of thousans of teenage protestors under a regime. talk to the families of the victims holy shit you asshole
What mask indeed.
So when did you talk to these thousands of families?
Anti-Communists: “communists are all brainwashed to ignore evidence!”
Anti communists when faced with the evidence:
want me to pull up the mass starvation records under mao or are yiu going to claim thats fake too, youre no better than a holocaust denier. fuck off
mass starvation records under mao
You mean the last Chinese famine, after a thousand years of recurring famines which happened under every Chinese regime, and were solved once and for all by the end of the Great Leap Forward? Yes let’s talk about those.
youre making it soumd like tens of millions starving to death is a win
Quick questions, what was the life expectancy when Mao came to power? And what was it when he left?
global rising tides lift all boats. plus if all of your weak and eldery stave to death and youre left with only the fitter people then yeah youll have highrr life expectancies. pretty fucjed up way to do it though
You’re literally trying to argue that people dying younger raises life expectancy, just give up man.
Yes pull up your CIA statistics so I can wipe my ass with it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Mothers wipe your ass with the mothers of the dead kids you degenerate wanker
The average lifespan of the Chinese at the start of the revolution was 33 years of age, that’s how horrible things were under the British, Americans and other western imperialists exploiting the country. It went up DURING the revolution, a time of civil war between the communists and the ROC combined with a literally genocidal fascist invasion by the Japanese.
Conditions were so bad that the communists still made people’s lives better during those horrendous circumstances. By the time the new country was founded it had risen to 45 years, and by the time Mao died in 1976 it had risen to 62 years of age.
Were things just peachy during this time? No. Did they consistently improve the lives of the people? Yes. Were things significantly worse beforehand? 100%.
The maoist uprising against the landlords was the largest and most comprehensive proletarian revolution in history, and led to almost totally-equal redistribution of land among the peasantry.
global lifespans around the world have gone up, this isnt a totally fair argument. as they say, high tides lift all boats. british colonialists are notoriously evil, i wont defend them. i will have to look into uour comment more, thanks for the info. but on zedong, he was a cutthroat dictator and is succeeded by another and another and (etc. etc.), we’re still seeing genocides today with the ugyhurs for example in tibet and forceful annexations with hong kong, tibet, taiwan (soon?), large sea expanses, etc… china’s economic success does not excuse ethnofascism
Can you tell me what the life expectancy is in capitalist Nigeria please? Which France is attempting to get to invade Niger to stop them from becoming free of colonialism.
Capitalism has yet to improve the lives of people. It functions to maintain itself and provide wealth extraction from the labour of the working class, in the global south it functions to export that wealth into the imperialist western nations which act as an empire bloc.
he was a cutthroat dictator
Nah man. You don’t really know this, you’ve just heard it repeated by hundreds and hundreds of reddit comments over and over again without actually investigating it properly from proper sources instead of propaganda. You also probably come from a country that has a deeply anticommunist problem. Here in the UK viewing Mao as having done more good than harm is normal among the left. It is the right and particularly the far right nationalists that scream all this bullshit. Here I can even show you elected mp Diane Abbot defending Mao on national TV (surrounding by right wing psychos). Or then Shadow Chancellor of the Treasury John McDonald throwing Mao’s little red book on the table in Parliament giving a speech in front of the labour party.
Mao played a pivotal role in freeing the country from colonialism, establishing new china, redistributing wealth and land and improving the lives of the people. Anyone that believes those lives were going to improve without revolution is crazy. Was he perfect? Fuck no he definitely made mistakes like killing the Sparrows which they quickly backtracked on. But was he good? Fuck yes. 70% good, 30% mistakes.
Your comment is legitimately incoherent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Mothers
please contact the families of the dead yourself you heartless fuck
So you’re not going to answer my question?
'Anti-Communists: “communists are all brainwashed to ignore evidence!”
Anti communists when faced with the evidence:’
whats the question?
Why would you get angry at the fact that there’s less massacres?
thats a perverted bastardisation of my argument and you know it, im angry cause youre lying about a massacre that did happen not happening
wah wah go starve commie
I am going to be so exited to report you to the secret police for extra rations when China takes over America and enforces Juche law
ohhh nooo and the democractic chinese will totally not do fascistic things to me :(
I am glad we agree then
There was a protest, there was no massacre. Sorry the facts hurt your feelings
well…tiananmen happened, the thing that didn’t happen was the massacre
sure and xi jinping can fly with his arms
Do you have a source for that?
