Was just talking at dinner with family, and it seems a logical action to ban circumcision, as in most cases, doesn’t have consent, and is a major (genitals are important) body modification. Can we ban it at the state level? Just a thought.
States could but I don’t see anyone pressing for it. People would just claim a religious exemption if they wanted to do it.
Cutting a piece of your baby’s junk off for no other reason then everyone does it is a really weird thing that I’ve never been able to wrap my head around.
I’m not religious but I at least can understand if it’s for religious reason, there’s a point to it, even if I don’t agree with/understand the point. But people seem to just do it for no reason aside from it’s what people do. It’s forced genital mutilation anyway you look at it.
There are medical reasons to remove. If the foreskin isn’t cleaned well (challenging for toddlers) it can get infected which prevents it from separating, which is very dangerous.
until puberty starts the foreskin is attached to the penis. Just like how the finger nails are attached. It can’t get dirt under there until you pull it back.
If your foot isn’t cleaned well, it can get infected and potentially cause sepsis, which is very dangerous. Should we be removing children’s feet?
No, obviously not. The time for invasive, nonconsentual medical intervention is when it is medically necessary, and circumcision does not fit the bill.
“The CPS does not recommend the routine circumcision of every newborn male.”
“It is shown that the foreskin is more sensitive than the uncircumcised glans mucosa, which means that after circumcision genital sensitivity is lost.” - Meaning circumcision is quite a damaging procedure, which means the justification for it must be high. And as a preventive measure for which the things being prevented won’t happen for a decade and a half or longer, isn’t justified.
If the foreskin isn’t cleaned well (challenging for toddlers)
Newborns should not have their foreskin pulled back for cleaning, as the separation can cause damage. IIRC it’s only a bit before puberty that it is safe to gently (not forcibly) pull back the foreskin.
Nah mate. They had to remove mine because is overgrew my gland and was so tight that I would have pee between the foreskin and the gland layong around, and it was impossible to unhook. The alternative would have been to cut it open and have dumbo’s ear flapping everytime I’d take my dick out. No partner ever complained, and I don’t give à shit about it.
I wouldn’t circumsize a kid if it wasn’t necessary, but when an operation takes place specifically for medical reasons, it’s because there is no other solution. Like when a foot id so gangrenous that you have to remove it or it will propagate the necrosis to the leg.
Being necessary for medical reasons is a good reason. Doing it because “it gets dirty” and “it looks better” is not. Unfortunately the latter is the most common reason.
Are you trolling? Or just finding it very difficult to understand what you are replying to? I’m genuinely asking here.
“Nah mate”, to someone saying it has to be a medical necessity… Following it up with “it was a medical necessity in my case”, and then arguing the same point of it needing to be a medical necessity… It’s just a bit too on-the-nose, that it seems more likely to be intentional, than just… Well, what it looks like
I don’t know man. The entire world for most of human history has gone on just fine without circumcision. I’m eternally grateful I was not born in the US and was brought here as a child so I didn’t get my foreskin cut.
It’s always an interesting conversation with women. Some prefer it, some don’t, most don’t care. But it is a bit exotic in some areas of the country. Not so much in heavily immigrant areas.
For example California and Florida the vast majority of people are not circumcised. In Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, etc and other states in mostly white America it’s close to 90%.
Poor hygiene is not a sufficiently good reason to remove
Why are you allowed Viagra, minoxidil, testosterone supplements, lifts in your shoes, girdles, hair plugs, tanning booths, calf implants, guns, camo/armor, ozempic and all the other gender affirming care that many conservatives and theocratic nutjobs enjoy to help pretend they’re big, strong men and not the withering impotent cowards that they actually are?
The same answer to both:
Religious indoctrination.
In America, it appears to have started being in vogue during WWII as a way for single moms whose husband is overseas to have less to take care of. After a bit of coercion, my parents admitted the hospital did it without even their consent. That does sound a lot like [insert birth state here] in the [insert birth decade here] so I didn’t question it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision check it out, scary numbers, america does this to 80% of the willies that pop out in their hospitals.
It’s a testament to the dickchopper they use that there aren’t more headless penises out there I suppose, but that’s the nicest thing I can say about it. The second nicest is just “wtf?”
It only kills a hundred or so babies every year, if you include things like post surgical infection.
But yeah, thanks to the corn flakes guy it’s super common in the US instead of just being a Jewish and Muslim thing. And it stays that way out of a combination of social inertia and foreskins being valuable to the biotech and cosmetics industries.
What the heck is going on here.
I’ve been circumcised as a child, as far as I know it was a medical necessary. I never had any Problem with my genitals. I have never even heard about people having such strong opinions about this topic.
It was just like, that some children having tympanostomy tube and some don’t. Is this such a big topic in the USA, or just in this post?
Oh boy. You’re about to learn a lot.
A circumcision isn’t necessary when there’s nothing medically wrong with you. It’s literally mutilation when it’s done for religious or appearance reasons. Spoiler! These are the two most common reasons why this procedure takes place. You didn’t consent.
When you’re born, the foreskin is fused to the glans (penis head). A foreskin’s purpose is protecting the glans and keeping it moist. A circumcised penis is scientifically proven to have reduced sensitivity because the glans are exposed all the time.
This procedure usually happens when the baby is 24 to 48 hours old. There are over ~100 deaths a year from circumcision. If an infection occurs, this can easily get out of hand and cause the loss of all or parts of the penis… on a new born baby mind you. Complications later in life may include, but not limited to: pain or discomfort with an erection, erectile dysfunction, or abnormal shape or size of an erection.
Because a new born penis is incredibly small, the slightest mistake can lead to disaster. In some cases, can mentally fuck someone up. Unfortunately, I am personally affected by a botched procedure. Too much skin was taken off and the urethral opening was torn.
It’s an unnecessary procedure that can fuck up your otherwise healthy at birth child for the rest of their life. All for some religious reason or because parents “don’t like it” - every male is born with it. It’s there for a reason.
What. In the 24/48 Hours after Birth is really early.
Mine was done when I was, like 5 or 6. I can clearly remember being put under general anesthesia. And peeing hurt for like 3 days.
But after that? No problem ever. How can there even be a medical reason in the 24/48 Hours after Birth?
EDIT: Mine was done because my foreskin was way too tight. Damn, Now I feel really sorry for you, bro. I thought everyone get this done (if it gets done at all) at the age of 5 to 7. But doing this on a Newborn seems really weird. I wish you and your junk all the best.
When a baby is born, the doctor may ask if you’d like to have your baby circumcised. If this is the case, it happens before they leave the hospital. This is where that time frame comes in. Otherwise, circumcision is “recommended” within the first two weeks after birth.
Here is a medical reason at birth: https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/hypospadias.html
Any medical condition after birth that requires a circumcision, needs to be performed by a doctor who knows exactly what they’re doing. Not every doctor does. So you end up with not-so-great stories shared around.
I just asked my Mom because I got curious, and she told me she had a long consult with our Doctor and a Surgeon about this. I was also getting Infections because of the tight foreskin, and this was the best way. I trust my Parents and the German Medical Association.
Skin is an elastic organ. If you start putting on fat, your skin stretches. The foreskin can be stretched with regular motion. Retracting it on a daily basis would encourage it to stretch. Infections occur only when the foreskin isn’t cleaned well. I don’t know your circumstances personally. Teaching you how to keep clean and retracting the skin is a viable method. I’m not discrediting your parents. Just sharing the logic behind why circumcision is not absolutely necessary or should be the first choice. If this was the informed decision they made for you, I’m glad it was successful with no complications. That’s the best possible outcome.
Even at 5 to 7 ( and to teenage years) there are stretching exercises that can be done to loosen the foreskin and completely make the surgery unnecessary (and yes there are rare cases where that doesn’t help and surgery is the last resort). I would still say you didn’t have consent at 5 or 6. Sorry to hear you got mutilated
I don’t got mutilated😅 I just talked to my Mom and asked about this, and she had a long consult with our Doctor and a Surgeon beforehand. It was a simple decision my parents had to make because I was not able to do so. Like thousands of other things, they decided for me until it was possible to decide for myself. And I in this case I had chronic Infections so waiting was not an option. Don’t get weird on me,bruh.
I have never even heard about people having such strong opinions about this topic.
You’re seriously pretending that you’ve never heard of people having strong opinions on genital mutilation, or that you don’t understanding why?
Or are you pretending that circumcision isn’t genital mutilation?
Because the western medical procedure to correct phimosis is very different from having your prepuce ritually removed.
Opening up the prepuce enough for it to be able to slide over the glans and removing the whole prepuce are rather different.
But the most ridiculous thing is you pretending you’re not aware of the controversy of snipping your kids genitals because of convictions/culture
Maybe because there are not many Jews (or other Religions who do this “ritualy”) in Germany the only way I ever heard about this was as a medical procedure. So yes. I never even thought about this being something controversial, like I never would think that getting tympanostomy tubes are controversial. If you want to get mad at me for living in a World where this is not an issue then go on. But isn’t a World where this is not issue your end goal?
I’m Finnish. We do less circumcisions than you guys, and our laws are arguably tighter.
I’m just amazed that someone would not be aware of the controversy. Have you never watched American TV? Just… how is someone unaware of this?
I’m not mad, I’m astonished.
It’s like pretending that you’re not aware of how big of s thing racism is in the US, that you’re unaware that there’s controversy about white cops shooting black people with poor excuses. Like “I’ve never heard of this ‘black lives matter’, thing, surely 'all lives matter’, eh?”
I get that some people won’t be exposed to everything, yeah, but we’re on Lemmy, not the opening page of Microsoft Edge, so one assumes a little bit of knowledge of the world.
My bad.
Won’t happen again.
Actually, I don’t watch American TV. If you could show me the “no circumcision” Riots or the big civil rights court case about the Cop who circumcised this Guy he should, and I would never forget again :D Damn now I want a large Demo where People hold up dicks with foreskin and yell stuff like, “Circumcision, what a snip! Let’s keep our foreskin, let it rip!”
EDIT: The “let it rip”-Part sound terrible painful maybe I need to change that
Cutting foreskin versus turning a dick inside out are two very different things.
Yeah, one’s done without anesthetic to babies to make sure their dicks look like their dads’, and one’s done to adults with their fully informed consent
Huh? One completely changes a person’s anatomy, while the other slightly changes the look. These things are not comparable, and to do so is idiotic.
It does not just change the look.
You probably want to carve out medically necessary circumcision (required treatment for some issues). The main answer in the US would be a combination of religion and tradition with some bonus vanity and outdated knowledge (see arguments about cleanliness).
Isn’t Judaism and Islam a minority religion in America?
Christianity
Christianity doesn’t proscribe circumcision. If anything it can be interpreted as doing the opposite.
Ask your local church pastor because the culture of circumcision in US did not just grow out of soil.
In the US cutting off the foreskin for phimosis or other minor issues is unfortunately very common (probably because “it’s no big deal, many had it done”) when using lube and careful stretching or just waiting would have been sufficient.
Cutting off the offending part should always be the last option, e.g. in the case of cancer. We don’t need an exception that cutting off e.g. a finger should be only done if medically necessary. That’s obvious. It should be the same here. Otherwise you’re just creating a loop hole.
Genital mutilation is incredibly sad and people are somehow tricking themselves into being ok with it because they can’t they dick tips back lol
Remember that cult where dudes were required to cut their balls off? It’s the same cult.
tricking themselves into being ok with it because they can’t get they dick tips back lol
I’m not tricking myself. I am literally indifferent to the fact that it happened. If people want to argue that it’s unnecessarily traumatic to children that is a good argument and makes sense. If you want to argue that I am mutilated, traumatized, and tricking myself then you’re full of shit.
Proving my point here tbh
Unconsensual body modification is mutilation. Wouldn’t you be offended if your parents performed any other permanent irreversible body modification? Clip your toes or ears?
No one is trying to shame you or say that cut dicks are bad but it’s extremely unethical to do that to babies. Just think about how messed up that is.
Are you a doctor or any kind of medical expert?
You don’t have to be a medical expert to have an opinion on the topic of cutting bits off people.
You don’t have to be a medical expert to have an opinion on the topic of cutting bits off people.
You probably should be a medical expert if you’re going to insist that:
people are somehow tricking themselves into being ok with it
You’ve confused me with someone else.
I have not.
Op said:
people are somehow tricking themselves into being ok with it
Op was asked if they were a medical expert. You jumped in saying OP doesn’t have to be a medical expert to have an opinion. I jumped in saying OP should be a medical expert in order to insist on a medical opinion.
Wouldn’t you be offended if your parents performed any other permanent irreversible body modification? Clip your toes or ears?
I couldn’t possibly tell you because that’s not a thing that happens. “Oh, you’re not bothered by this thing that happened to you? What if it was a different thing?” Is not a compelling argument.
To be clear, I am in no way arguing for circumcision. What I am saying is don’t say you’re fighting on my behalf over something I’m not bothered by. Some armchair “expert” insisting I am covering up trauma I don’t have is just going to cause me to think the entire movement is a bunch of performative assholes who don’t care to actually listen to people who were directly impacted by the thing they are talking about. That is the definition of virtue signaling: You don’t actually care about what the people it actually happened to have to say, you need to make sure everyone sees that “you know better” and you’re doing this for them.
it’s extremely unethical to do that to babies
Now that, is a good argument. Stick with that. Babies are unable to speak for themselves and need people to advocate for them. I don’t need someone else to speak for me, I am fully capable of doing that myself.
Genital mutilation is awful but the really hard part is getting buy in to the idea that it’s actually genital mutilation. People don’t want to be identified as mutilated - men who have been circumcised don’t want the thing that happened without their consent to define them.
Exactly. The mainstream male culture is too toxic to admit that yeah some are mutilated and even if it’s not a big deal on average these people did have their rights taken away from them and their identity invaded without consent.
Maybe there would be more success with a softer word instead of mutilated but then there’s a risk of people pushing this away as “not a big deal”.
Seriously not even that hard of an area to rinse. I actually wonder how much sensitivity men lose because it it. Articles keep saying it doesn’t reduce sexual satisfaction but I cant walk around with my foreskin pulled back all day. It would dry out and hurt like crazy as soon as I put on clothes. There has to be some loss to men that were mutilated and no one wants to admit they are missing out.
I’m always on the look out for uncut cocks to help abate the resentment of having my own mutilated.
because we are a stupid, prudish, and vain country. we don’t want people to enjoy jerking off too much, nor do we want to reverse the trend of mutilation, which would make the old guard feel like they’re the broken ones
Because it’s “traditional”.
Prepare for all sorts of excuses that appear to be along the lines of “Americans don’t know how to wash their cocks”.
It would require that a significant portion of the population admit their parents mutilated them as infants.
For some reason, they refuse to admit they were mutilated without their consent.
Some of them have subsequently mutilated their own sons, and admitting that was mutilation is beyond their capacity.
Maybe because people actually don’t feel “mutilated” and we don’t appreciate being called mutilated because you are obsessed with and upset about your own dick. I fully support it not occurring any more but to try and suggest everyone who is circumcizedis mutilated and equivocate it to female genital mutilation is ridiculous.
I have a neutral stance on circumcision. Do what you please. I just wish people like you could try to prove a point without using “mutilation” over and over to make it sound worse than it actually is. It puts an agenda on your point and biases it. There’s nothing mutilated about it. It’s just altered.
If you consider this to be mutilation then that would also mean you think any gender affirming surgery is also mutilation. And one could much easier argue that converting a penis to a vagina is far more mutilating than just removing some extra skin from a penis.
So if you’re trying to convince people to stop circumcision, stop using overly dramatic words and just explain why it’s not necessary. Otherwise I’ll just roll my eyes at people like you.
If you consider this to be mutilation then that would also mean you think any gender affirming surgery is also mutilation.
No one gets gender reassignment surgery until they can concentyi it as an adult.
False equivalence.
I was circumcised, I don’t have a problem with that fact. I understand why people do have a problem with circumcision and I don’t have an issue with it being banned.
Don’t try to induce mental trauma in me for my past that I’m not bothered by.
I have been physically punished when I did something bad as a kid. I’m not traumatized by that either but I still think it’s good that it’s illegal nowdays.
I agree. And if people went around claiming you must be traumatized over it and lying to yourself you’d say they’re full of shit. If someone was trying to convince you to be traumatized about it you’d tell them to fuck off.
I don’t think they’re saying people are traumatized. That word has a meaning. They’re saying people have issue reconciling the fact that their parents would do something like that to them and also that their parents are generally good people. Many people would rather not even consider that it wasn’t the right call, because it makes it easier to hold those two beliefs at the same time. However, people make mistakes. Those aren’t contradictory ideas if you can understand that people can be mislead.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you a persons who is refusing to admit.
Thanks for demonstrating my point so effectively.
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the problem with the anti-circumcision movement.
There are good arguments to be had for banning circumcision. Refusing to recognize my autonomy, and insisting you know the “secret trauma of strangers” better than they do is not one of them. It makes you sound like an asshole who doesn’t know what they are talking about and will cause people to think the whole movement is the same way.
For those arguing to ban circumcision: you need to purge assholes like this from your numbers. They are only doing harm and not helping your cause.
Refusing to recognize my autonomy
Glad that, as an infant, you exercised your own autonomy, when your parents decided to circumcise you.
If you did exercise your own autonomy as an adult, then fine. That’s not what we’re talking about.
Your autonomy argument doesn’t work when you refuse to recognize my statements that I am not bothered by the fact that it happened to me. It makes you a blatant hypocrite when you say you are concerned about the autonomy of children but ignore my autonomy as an adult.
Children do in fact need someone to speak for them. When you insist on speaking for me when I am fully capable of speaking for myself and telling you not to, then I’m going to tell you to fuck off and won’t be very receptive to anything else you have to say.
What? They’re not bothered by it how the fuck is that refusing to admit anything? Does that mean if two people get jumped scared in a dark room and one for the rest of their life needs a light on in their room and the other doesn’t that they are secretly traumatized? No it doesn’t.
Also circumcision happens at birth most of the time so many people (myself included) don’t remember it. It should absolutely be illegal but as the other person said don’t tell someone what traumas they faced and how they should be effected.
You’re a clown
so many people (myself included) don’t remember it.
"She doesn’t remember being raped, so it’s ok’.
Also circumcision happens at birth most of the time so many people (myself included) don’t remember it. It should absolutely be illegal but as the other person said don’t tell someone what traumas they faced and how they should be effected.
Just because you don’t remember it, doesn’t mean it doesn’t effect you. Aside from the obvious physical effects, there are studies that suggest that neonatal stressors and pain (such as say amputating part of the baby’s genitals) can have long reaching psychological effects. For example:
https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=55727
AFAIK, circumcision reduces risk of HIV.
So does condoms
Good for you not being bothered by it. But I think it’s rather easy to imagine that it can be a traumatizing experience and lead to psychological or physiological injuries. So it’s a medical procedure that should only be prescribed by doctors or if you are an adult.
Sure, I’m not arguing against that. I’m arguing against this mentality that everyone who has been circumcised should be carrying trauma over it, or must be carrying trauma but are lying to themselves. Don’t say you’re fighting on my behalf for something that doesn’t bother me in the slightest.
Fair point, not sure somebody is doing it and if so why, but that would be indeed contra productive. If someone does not feel traumatized why would anyone would want to convince them otherwise?
Fair point, not sure somebody is doing it and if so why, but that would be indeed contra productive
The post I was replying to:
For some reason, they refuse to admit they were mutilated without their consent.
For some reason, they refuse to admit they were mutilated without their consent.
I’m not sure that is exactly how they meant it, but I can see you interpret it that way. An unnecessary, irreversible medical operation was performed on you without your consent, but since you are not bothered by it - good for you.
Here’s another question along the same lines - my friend when I was a kid developed gynecomastia, commonly known as “breast knots” when he was 14. They’re completely harmless, but they made it look like he had boobs. Cute little A cups on this otherwise very boy-presenting person. For some reason, no one thought it was “against God’s plan” or “mutilating his body” or “part of the gender agenda” when this 14 year old boy had a purely cosmetic double mastectomy. I wonder why no one batted an eye at a child receiving gender-affirming cosmetic surgery just because he wanted to in this particular case.
On one hand I oppose circumcision, on the other hand I think we’re getting far too comfortable letting politicians ban medical procedures.
My alternative perspective is no surgery on someone too young to request it unless it cannot wait until they’re old enough to do so.
Cosmetic or optional surgery should be the choice of the patient
Kids can’t get plastic surgery even if they wanted to, but can get circumcised even if nobody asked them? It’s just dumb.
Can’t cosmetic surgeries can range from things like circumcision, fixing a deviated septum, and something like botox? They’re often not seen as “necessary,” but they can be recommended to improve quality of life. I think this gets conflated because maybe breast implants do drastically improve someone’s quality of life, but doctors (I think) should err on the side of having a patient wait for more permanent procedures. It’s still between the doctor and patient, ultimately, but in cases where a kid can’t consent there can be valid arguments. I don’t think circumcision meets that threshold a majority of the time, and even when it does it can usually wait.
Circumcision is irreversible mutilation of genitals forced by religion. At least Christians just dunk you in water.
Bruh. America cuts 80% of their junk, looky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence_of_circumcision
Pretty fucked up actually, not to mention i bet they charge you between two and ten thousand dollars to do it, too.
Yeah, but it’s not forced by religion - it primarily got started in the US because the guy who invented corn flakes though it would keep boys from masturbating because it reduces sensation. He also had a procedure for girls (involving scarring the clit with acid) but that didn’t catch on and even if it had would be very illegal now because we actually care about protecting girls.
You do realize that the Torah, the book that gives the penis chopping instructions, is included in the Old Testament, right? This whole non-consensual penis mutilation tradition is definitely a Christian practice, too.
Never knew, TIL.
To be fair, in the new testament, Jesus basically tells the Christians that they don’t have to follow all of the old testament, so not all Christian denominations practice it. Still, some sects just ignore the good Jesus stuff, in general. A lot of Christians in the US still have the procedure done to their kids, but it’s mainly for cosmetic reasons, nowadays.
no its not for the same reason why christian don’t eat kosher meals. Basically that was part of the old contract with god and the new contract does not include circumcision. That’s why it was rare in christian communities
I’ve never understood the American obsession with MGM (male genital mutilation). But it seems that a large percentage of your population has had it done. So from an outsider perspective it seems like it must be a cultural thing to your country. So for laws to exist that ban it (or at least make it harder to authorise) you’d first need a cultural shift, then. Enough political will for laws to be passed.
It really isn’t cultural. In the early 1900s, William Kellogg (of Kellogg’s) was a puritanical Christian. He hated the idea of masturbation more than anything, so he created Corn Flakes to be a cereal so bland it would kill your libido and prevent you from masturbating. He also was a proponent of circumcision as a means of preventing masturbation because it would make the penis too tight that stroking it would be painful. Americans bought into his propaganda that circumcised penises are “cleaner” and then it just became “well, I’m circumcised, and my son’s penis should look like mine!”
No one said that the average American was intelligent.
He also was a proponent of circumcision as a means of preventing masturbation because it would make the penis too tight that stroking it would be painful
… well, I for one am very glad he was mistaken in this point.
Sounds pretty cultural to me, something that’s persisted for a hundred and twenty years (What’s that a quarter of your country’s history?) based on an over religious ideal and pushed by a capitalist.
I consider “culture” to have a deeper meaning to a population, at least moreso than “my dick’s cut, so my kid’s gonna have a cut dick because I’m not aware of basic hygiene practices!”
“my dick’s cut, so my kid’s gonna have a cut dick
Change the sex and genitalia in question, and this is basically what drives FGM. It’s mostly women who had it done to them that drive the practice forward. That’s how traditional practices work in general - you repeating what happened to you with your offspring, often long past the point where the original purpose (if any) has any value.
I think cosmetic surgery should be limited to adults, yes. Circumcision here is usually cosmetic (someone wants the baby to look like the Dad, I am not kidding, that is the argument I hear the most) so like labiaplasty, I don’t think it should be done to people who can’t choose it. I don’t think intersex babies should be modified either.
Trans care for minors does not involve surgery. But other gender affirming care should be available to those over 13, like sexual health services are, without parental consent. That’s the age we legally think kids get some privacy rights so why not this?
Cosmetic surgery encompasses a lot more things than boob jobs. A burn victim getting skin replacement is cosmetic surgery for example.
Sure, that’s valid. A burn is an injury and repairing a skin injury is plastic surgery but I guess I didn’t think of it as cosmetic.
Mostly I wanted to say that I do think gender care is something like sexual health services, that people we consider children for other purposes are granted the right to access this on their own. Right now in my state those kids can’t even get counseling or lab services related to transgender care.
There are times where intersex babies need surgery to prevent complications. For anything else, let them wait until they can decide. Agreed 100%.
