Anyone saying they’re the bad guys is armchair quarterback-ing a people’s fight against annihilation.
If YOUR people lived in a militarily patrolled, constantly surveilled, walled off piece of your former homeland, from which you couldn’t leave to go visit a hospital without your oppressor’s army’s approval, and that same army tried to calculate food rations to keep you only just above starvation to keep you passive, and could arrest without cause and indefinitely hold you….would you really say that a group of your people were wrong for lashing out? Now on top of that, the civilian populace can be given permission by that same government to take arms and evict you and your family from your ancestral home. Are you wrong for lashing out?
Raping women and little girls isn’t “lashing out” or “taking arms”. Neither is murdering children. Israel’s treatment of Palestinians has been, and still is, abhorrent. But let’s not pretend that rape and child murder are a necessary part of struggle against oppression. Hamas aren’t the only bad guys, but they’re definitely bad guys.
But I think when people say things like “what did you expect to happen [given the Palestinians material conditions]” or even “not all Palestinians are Hamas” all they hear is “Jews bad! America bad!” Because, basically, they’re programmed to.
That’s pretty much the extent of the “both sides bad” argument, no real substance. It’s a cowardly way of siding with the opressor. I think it’s also based heavily on ignorance, as if both sides have equal power and they could just have a gentleman’s agreement to duel at midday and settle it. That totally ignores both reality and history, but I get it, it makes one feel he has the moral high ground without actually doing anything or even taking a stand.
I’m not discussing this with you. There is no situation in which rape is a reasonable option, nor is it helpful for military strategy. Your argument would work for “dishonorable” military tactics like guerilla warfare, but it does not apply here.
Who do you blame for the deaths of innocent German civilians during World War 2? I blame Hitler, but it sounds like you blame the Allies for fighting back.
Like many things in life, the answer isn’t “either this or that.” Plenty of blame to go around.
Many deaths because of Hitler, but what about Nazi leadership? When you consider things like the firebombing of Dresden it turns into an even greyer shade of grey.
Considering nuance takes more effort, but ultimately it’s more rewarding than black and white thinking.
I don’t really understand the down votes, so I must not have made myself clear in my last comment. My point was that Hitler and Nazi leadership caused all of that to happen. If Hitler hadn’t been such a monster and invaded the rest of Europe, Dresden would have never been firebombed. Similarly if Israel hasn’t tried to genocide Palestinians, there wouldn’t have been an attack on the music festival.
Horrible things happen during war. The only way to prevent that is by not starting one to begin with. I agree that Hamas has done terrible things, but the blame must ultimately lie with Israel.
There’s a stark difference between “Israel is the greater of two evils” and “Israel is evil, Hamas is against Israel. Hamas must be good.”. I don’t think most people are trying to push the idea that Israel is good outside of MSM news outlets and their audiences. At least not here.
Hitler, Nazi leadership, Nazi soldiers, Swiss bankers, the Ribbentrop Pact… allied commanders, allied bomber pilots. They all have some of the responsibility for civilians burning in Dresden etc.
I blame Israel more for the current situation too.
They’re bad guys because they murdered a bunch of families and young people minding their own business. They’re bad guys for weaponizing rape. They’re bad guys for knowingly bringing the wrath of the Israeli military down on Gaza. They’re bad guys for using money given to them by Israel and other nations to do those things instead of helping Gazans.
Note that I’m calling them “bad guys”, not “the bad guys”, because they don’t hold the monopoly on being bad. The IDF are also bad guys for their willingness to bomb buildings full of civilians for the chance of maybe killing a Hamas member or collapsing a tunnel.
Why do we have to reduce it to “good” or “bad”? They have reprehensible methods, but the fact that they exist is an inevitable consequence of the conditions that the Palestinians have been living in for decades.
The idea that Hamas and the IDF are two “sides” is itself absurd. Hamas have absolutely no chance of victory against the IDF. There is no world in which they can even compete! They are a desperate attempt to take action by a people who have been pushed to the brink.
They aren’t a side, they are a symptom. They’ve done terrible things! But those things are a consequence of the circumstances that caused Hamas to exist.
That’s a whole other discussion, but what are the Palestinian people to do under an illegal occupation that aims for genocide? That said, Palestinians are not Hamas, and Israel did a lot to support Hamas to thwart the Palestinian Authority. The history is long and complicated, but I just asked for links, since I have not seen those posts.
Right. Why not peacefully protest? I’m pretty sure that the desperation needed to throw a rock at a tank is incomprehensible to entitled Americans who have never missed a meal out of necessity. There is very little real support for the Palestinian genocide, but a strong false narrative. This article has some descriptions of the day to day struggle of Palestinians living under apartheid.
Anyone saying they’re the bad guys is armchair quarterback-ing a people’s fight against annihilation.
If YOUR people lived in a militarily patrolled, constantly surveilled, walled off piece of your former homeland, from which you couldn’t leave to go visit a hospital without your oppressor’s army’s approval, and that same army tried to calculate food rations to keep you only just above starvation to keep you passive, and could arrest without cause and indefinitely hold you….would you really say that a group of your people were wrong for lashing out? Now on top of that, the civilian populace can be given permission by that same government to take arms and evict you and your family from your ancestral home. Are you wrong for lashing out?
What a fucking joke.
Raping women and little girls isn’t “lashing out” or “taking arms”. Neither is murdering children. Israel’s treatment of Palestinians has been, and still is, abhorrent. But let’s not pretend that rape and child murder are a necessary part of struggle against oppression. Hamas aren’t the only bad guys, but they’re definitely bad guys.
I don’t think anyone is contesting that.
But I think when people say things like “what did you expect to happen [given the Palestinians material conditions]” or even “not all Palestinians are Hamas” all they hear is “Jews bad! America bad!” Because, basically, they’re programmed to.
How do you expect Palestinian armed resistance to occupation to look?
Not like that??? You can resist without committing completely unrelated warcrimes!
Wait, let him cook. He almost reinvented nazi germany narrative there, let’s see what else he gonna say.
That’s pretty much the extent of the “both sides bad” argument, no real substance. It’s a cowardly way of siding with the opressor. I think it’s also based heavily on ignorance, as if both sides have equal power and they could just have a gentleman’s agreement to duel at midday and settle it. That totally ignores both reality and history, but I get it, it makes one feel he has the moral high ground without actually doing anything or even taking a stand.
I’m not discussing this with you. There is no situation in which rape is a reasonable option, nor is it helpful for military strategy. Your argument would work for “dishonorable” military tactics like guerilla warfare, but it does not apply here.
This is soft selling war crimes. Shame on you.
All war is crime.
The real question is can an occupying force claim self defence?
i agree with the general point, but calling people at a music festival an occupying force seems disingenuous.
Who do you blame for the deaths of innocent German civilians during World War 2? I blame Hitler, but it sounds like you blame the Allies for fighting back.
Like many things in life, the answer isn’t “either this or that.” Plenty of blame to go around.
Many deaths because of Hitler, but what about Nazi leadership? When you consider things like the firebombing of Dresden it turns into an even greyer shade of grey.
Considering nuance takes more effort, but ultimately it’s more rewarding than black and white thinking.
FWIW I didn’t downvote you.
I don’t really understand the down votes, so I must not have made myself clear in my last comment. My point was that Hitler and Nazi leadership caused all of that to happen. If Hitler hadn’t been such a monster and invaded the rest of Europe, Dresden would have never been firebombed. Similarly if Israel hasn’t tried to genocide Palestinians, there wouldn’t have been an attack on the music festival.
Horrible things happen during war. The only way to prevent that is by not starting one to begin with. I agree that Hamas has done terrible things, but the blame must ultimately lie with Israel.
There’s a stark difference between “Israel is the greater of two evils” and “Israel is evil, Hamas is against Israel. Hamas must be good.”. I don’t think most people are trying to push the idea that Israel is good outside of MSM news outlets and their audiences. At least not here.
Hitler, Nazi leadership, Nazi soldiers, Swiss bankers, the Ribbentrop Pact… allied commanders, allied bomber pilots. They all have some of the responsibility for civilians burning in Dresden etc.
I blame Israel more for the current situation too.
Which nation should the occupiers return to?
You’re an idiot.
deleted by creator
Username check out. Wish I could downvote more than once rofl
They’re bad guys because they murdered a bunch of families and young people minding their own business. They’re bad guys for weaponizing rape. They’re bad guys for knowingly bringing the wrath of the Israeli military down on Gaza. They’re bad guys for using money given to them by Israel and other nations to do those things instead of helping Gazans.
Note that I’m calling them “bad guys”, not “the bad guys”, because they don’t hold the monopoly on being bad. The IDF are also bad guys for their willingness to bomb buildings full of civilians for the chance of maybe killing a Hamas member or collapsing a tunnel.
Why do we have to reduce it to “good” or “bad”? They have reprehensible methods, but the fact that they exist is an inevitable consequence of the conditions that the Palestinians have been living in for decades.
The idea that Hamas and the IDF are two “sides” is itself absurd. Hamas have absolutely no chance of victory against the IDF. There is no world in which they can even compete! They are a desperate attempt to take action by a people who have been pushed to the brink.
They aren’t a side, they are a symptom. They’ve done terrible things! But those things are a consequence of the circumstances that caused Hamas to exist.
That’s a whole other discussion, but what are the Palestinian people to do under an illegal occupation that aims for genocide? That said, Palestinians are not Hamas, and Israel did a lot to support Hamas to thwart the Palestinian Authority. The history is long and complicated, but I just asked for links, since I have not seen those posts.
Right. Why not peacefully protest? I’m pretty sure that the desperation needed to throw a rock at a tank is incomprehensible to entitled Americans who have never missed a meal out of necessity. There is very little real support for the Palestinian genocide, but a strong false narrative. This article has some descriptions of the day to day struggle of Palestinians living under apartheid.
Chivalry is dead long ago