- cross-posted to:
- usa@lemmy.ml
- socialism@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- usa@lemmy.ml
- socialism@beehaw.org
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Everyone has well covered my frustration with both the tax ideas here and some miscarriage justice, so I have this question:
Question:
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What countries do you think are really good examples of what right looks like for taxation?
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Any countries that rise above the rest for proper proportion of personal tax, corporate tax, etc?
Why: The older I get, the more I feel like Americans are tought that capitalism good, else bad; rich are the reason the rest of us have it as good as we do, and we should thank them for it.
I’d like to compare to other countries, that’s why I’m curious,.just trying to Google is a broad starting place.
I’d start with a braoder picture first that will have the best chance of naturally funneling you to the information you seek.
I’d start with looking up what merits are used to consider a government ran program successful.
From there use those merits but look for examples of programs and the governments responsible for the programs that have been used as models for what happens when a program FAILS to meet each of those merits.
Then look at what each of the failed programs cost to the taxpayers and what percentage of that goverment’s total the failed program accounts for.
Divide those costs by the population of tax payering citizens and you will have what earch failed program cost each person.
Do the same process for successful programs to form a picture of what efficient tax funded programs vs inefficient/failed programs look like.
Ive done similar analysis cant remember what the reson specifically was for but the added bonus of doing the search yourself is eventually you’ll start finding similar researchers doing similar analysis and discovering methods, questions, variables you didnt even know you were missing.
What I do remember from my similar search was finding several really good articles on the systematic failures plagueing government ran programs that exist accross many different government models and why they cant be fixed without a complete overhaul of how a governing body is structured.
One of the things they broje down is how any government ran program is the same entity assessing the cost efficiency of a program is almost always the same entity making its budget proposals. Which is the same entity that usually advocated and proposed the program. Which is the same entity whose tenure is dependent on the success of the program.
Its been a really long time since I read the article and did my best from memory but without finding the articles, ill admit I may have butchered explaining that example lol.
Basically for a governing power to have longevity it needs to have redundancies to prevent burning out and those redundancies make gorernment ran programs incapable of having many of the natural variables of business to affect any government ran program.
Again, full disclaimer I’m shooting from the hip and the take away should be the method that works for me to find answers for either really obscure topics or really specific topics.
This seems like a very academic and thought intensive process. That’s not a criticism.
I’ll have to fight my natural instincts of finding the easy button on this one.
Thanks
socialism intensifies
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How Taxes Steal For The Rich
They have some really great medication for stroke victims. Get well soon.
Nice job telling the world that you’re illiterate
You no read good?
His name is Littlejohn, and he’s fighting against rich people? It was his destiny! If that judge didn’t let him off he must be in bed with the aristocrats!
Tax avoidance is the real problem, while tax evasion is largely a misdirection at people who begin to get a fraction of their wealth without the experience to properly manage it. They’ve even penalized people who essentially have nothing to do with the US, accidental Americans (those who’ve lived their entire life in another country), as tax evaders because of the slimmest thread of association to the US.
Imagine being growing up in a country for decades, working there and having everything there, and having the US show up and tell you that your day-to-day bank account down the street is really a foreign bank account, using their economic weight to have the bank freeze it and throw you out. It isn’t a case of the theoretical, it has happened, and those people have been forced to “renounce” (heckled) to fork out over $4k to get them off their back - and even the EU has been ok with this, largely because it also answers to the lobbyists of wealthy billionaires.
Meanwhile rich assholes use what are essentially shell corporations (they don’t even have to be because of the size of their wealth) to move their wealth to whatever fiscal paradise they want. They don’t even need to change their citizenship because they can just create a corporation with headquarters wherever they please for whatever tax benefits it gives them. This is the problem: https://time.com/6326583/tax-shelters-multinational-corporations/
Just another day in paradise… As we (the poors) all await the jubilee.
“We don’t pay taxes; only the little people pay taxes.” - Leona Helmsley. (~ 1989)
(Convicted of extortion; sentenced to 16 years; released after months.) Her husband’s death left her with the Helmsley hotels, the Helmsley Palace and the Empire State Building. (Yes, that one.)
She was 100% correct.
right for the wrong reasons, those reasons being the rich themselves
Few us citizens will even protest this extreme injustice. Ask yourselves how this would play out in France.
If recent memory serves, the answer is rage for a few days then back to life as usual.
There’s only so many times you can guillotine the same corpse before it gets old. After all it’s “eat the rich”, not “slice the rich like toast”. So a few days will be sufficient.
Complacency it is, then. Nothing you can do about, so why even bother?
We can vote.
Best joke yet in this thread.
I’d love to “bother” but do you have any suggestions? The French method ain’t what it used to. The people need direction and I’m not talking about politicians. Everytime one pops up they get disappeared. The powers that be have gotten very good at keeping the status quo. So until that changes, yeah complacency it is.
Isn’t there some kind of amendment you guys are so proud of? Something to do with tyrannical governments? I know solidarity isn’t your thing entirely but it makes me wonder what you guys are waiting to happen before you use those guns. I hear they also help against disappearing. I realize that’s a big step but you could at least take to the streets, no?
Also, “the powers that be” don’t keep the status quo. The complacent populace waiting for something to change is. You are way more than them but for some reason you don’t channel that power.
They won’t do anything because they are selfish, lazy, weak, authoritarian cowards.
They can’t and won’t even enforce their own rules on Lemmy so what makes you think they’re going to do anything to save their own country?
You end an abnormally high amount of your sentences with question marks. Not just in this post, but in general. Are you German or something?
If you want people to be violent, go ahead and start. My usual policy for this is: you first.
Lol, thanks for the analysis and your valuable contribution to the discussion. I will vow to better my excessive use of question marks based on your feedback. Can I still ask questions or is it just the question marks you are irked by❔
Your “usual policy” is exactly my point, by the way. You wait for someone to do something, for something to change just as long as you don’t have to do anything and can stay angry but complacent. Change doesn’t come in the form of some feature update you can download, you have to actively work for it.
Oh sorry, I didn’t mean that to be critical, it was just something I noticed and was curious about. I thought it might be an acquired-English language thing. I’m realizing now it’s just, like, passive aggressive? Or maybe passive passive? Lol. Idk?
Yeah, that’s a fair point. But it strikes me as shockingly similar to calling for other people to do something on Lemmy? You know, because calling for undirected street violence from another country on an internet message board isn’t, like, better? It’s worse maybe?
I’m getting into using your punctuation style lol. You get it? It’s kind of fun? Or? Like I like it? Or?
I think the biggest problem is how it’s such a complicated issue, it’s really hard to just ‘rally the masses around’. Especially when there’s plenty of other runaway complicated issues we also need to rail against.
I think this is why the “Occupy Wall St.” protests ultimately fizzled. People were pissed, many knew exactly why, many had a vague idea, and many others just wanted to blow off steam.
One “advanatage” the rich have with their ideology is insidious simplicity. Does it serve money? Do that. Does it keep you rich and punish others? Do that. Terribly predictable, but they all unite under solidarity of acquiring currency. They’re not bothered with how it affects the planet or any other human beings that don’t threaten their accounts.
A majority of these injustices are essentially us being very unhappy with all the complicated, multifaceted, complex ways in which these weaponized simpletons pursue cash and the power to acquire more cash. We know something is VERY wrong, but untangling it enough to unite under a common demand is a much heavier burden.
A lot of the problems boil down to FPTP-voting and the current way political campaigns are financed. They result in this polarized deadwater where money and power practically become synonymous words wielded to keep anything from changing via journalism and the courts on this matter. It’s exactly as intended by the old roman aristocrats that designed it over 2 millenia ago to maintain influence regardless of voter outcomes.
Occupy Wall street was attacked by one of the most coordinated police actions in US history. Never forget that.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/29/fbi-coordinated-crackdown-occupy
Excellent dig-up. Thanks for this. :) It’s really hard to maintain “what really happened” as time goes on. I can’t believe this was so long ago.
Help the guy out… he has legal bills: https://www.gofundme.com/f/charles-littlejohns-legal-defense-fund
Kyle Rittenhouse, the teenager charged with killing two people and wounding a third during racial justice unrest in Wisconsin last year, is continuing to rack up massive amounts of donations ahead of his November trial, according to a legal defense fund associated with his family which said Monday it has raised nearly $500,000 in the past three months. Forbes
Support for Charles Littlejohn $48,685 USD raised of $250,000 goal GoFundMe
To be fair though, Kyle Rittenhouse gets indirect funding from all the weapon manufacturers and conservative groups. Charles Littlejohn managed to piss off everybody who matters/makes decisions.
Cheers for the link!
America built on the backs of the poor, with the rich with whips whipping at their backs. But we all knew this. We know that the rich are evading axes, and we poor are all paying for the criminey! government funding that we hate. (there are some good things the government funds, but nothing compared to what they put in crazy wars and overseas spending. But that’s another gripe.) I kind of feel bad this guy got 5 years for telling us all what we already know. Now if he would have given us all a way to fix this problem, that would be something for the rich and government to be in an uproar about.
And five years is quick, compared to the life sentence exile that Edward Snowden got. We all knew all that stuff too.
the rich are evading axes
Now that’s a suggestive typo…
He leaked private information of an individual. People are bending over backwards to say how in this case being against privacy is actually good
How much privacy is expected of the POTUS? Precedent is established and in the case of the Presidency strictly adhered to until as of recently. Nah, the public was given what was owed to it.
Precedent of Presidents voluntarily releasing their tax returns. This wasn’t voluntary
Yeah, because the cunt doesn’t give a shit about serving the people he’s supposed to represent. Or do you also think Hitler was entitled to some privacy and the enigma code shouldn’t have been broken?
Hitler would deserve privacy if he were a United States private citizen. He was not, he was a foreign leader.
See no he doesn’t if he’s a public official. The task of governing a large population requires transparency. I can’t believe that you argue in good faith that either a murdering fascist or a two bit con from New York deserves access to privacy while handling the affairs of multiple millions of people. Privacy laws do not apply to heads of state. You’re still arguing that these people should be able to avoid accountability for very real crimes.
Your mistake is seeing the rich as people.
Because there are very few rules that should be universal. “Keeping tax returns secret so they don’t expose the benefits rich people get” isn’t one of them.
It’s literally the law, protecting everyone’s privacy
Only a moron thinks the law is inherently moral.
So you’re going to say violating someone’s privacy is moral, but only if you don’t like them? What’s the logic
How about this: Billionaires and presidents don’t get to keep their taxes secret. Deal?
He didn’t leak every billionaire’s tax record, so don’t make it a billionaire tax record thing like this post suggests
Your reading comprehension sucks, pal.
The logic is that you’re a troll or a Russian bot. Fuck off.
There are exceptions to almost every rule. As there should be.
Yes, from the comments I see sentiments like the rich and Trump fans are not people. Just dehumanize your opponents and everything is permissible.
They are people. They’ve simply forgotten that we are people too, equal to them in every way except the size of our bank accounts.
As for the Trump supporters, I understand why they supported him in 2016. I struggle to see why they still do after what he’s done since, ie: lowered taxes for the rich again.
Not dehumanizing them, taking away their private citizen status, because it’s right in the title “Public Official”.
He revealed corruption. Whistleblower
No, he did not
I hate transparency too especially when it comes to President of the United States.
Did he release them himself? No? Then he has the same rights as everyone else
Trumptards aren’t people
So I guess killing them is not murder, since they are not people, right?
Biden if you were looking for a chance to prove you’re about reform and equality for working classes, now is your chance to pardon this guy and give him a position in department of treasurey.
Another thing. If that were going to happen, why hasn’t he pardoned Julian Assange yet, hmm? Assange embarassed the elites and exposed their bullshit. Trump was his fan for a minute until his bullshit got exposed too. Turns out that Hillary has more ties with Russia than Trump. It’s the Machiavellian strategy: accuse your opponent of the thing you’re guilty of.
It will never happen. Biden is owned by the same people as Trump. There’s only one party, the party of the Oligarchs. All of the petty shit about abortion, trans rights, gay rights, racial equality, gender equality, religion, second amendment, etcetera are all distractions to keep us all at each others throats while the rich cocksuckers figure out more insidious ways to fuck us all over.
Oh no, my trans kid is being discriminated against. Time to ship them off to a private villa in another country.
Oh no, my daughter got knocked up. Impromptu vacation in Europe & private therapy.
Oh no, my relative is the wrong skin color. Give them a job posting “we’re all in this together” memes in corporate PR.
They hated him for he told the truth.
The two party/mass media distraction machine working on the next big thing? 😄
Trump even admitted to this stuff though, he said they all do it and they won’t change the tax laws. IEven Chappelle write a bit about it.
He waves it in ‘average Joe’s’ face, and people are still voting for him. 🤯
Dude, Joe Biden is a career politician. He’s trash… But he’s still better than Trump. Trump is a fucking dumpster fire threatening to light this whole world on fire.
petty shit
Sure thing, bro!
I know that sounds dismissive, but if you have no healthcare and can’t afford a place to live, and your right to dissent is eroded every day, then all of the other differences won’t matter when we’re dead.
Your list of “petty shit” were either examples of or things that directly impact healthcare and living conditions.
Fuck this bullshit. There is a difference here, and what you’re spouting here is pure Propaganda.
I agree the wealthy on both sides IS treated differently from all of the rest of us, but that doesn’t mean there’s no difference between fascism and the failure of progress.
I always liked the term boots on our necks, but it’s more like boat shoes or Armani?
This sounds a lot like the one party “they’re all the same” bullshit that right wingers like to propogate.
Because make no mistake, one party is at least trying to push laws through that help (democrats), versus the other which just openly fucks people and doesn’t give a shit about helping out.
It absolutely is the same as the right winger rhetoric. Because it is right winger rhetoric. This is their new thing.
44 Democrat senators, 36 Republicans and Joe Biden all worked together to pass a law forcing a union to accept a contract it’s members had already voted on and rejected.
Fuck all of them.
This doesn’t mean there’s no difference between Biden and Trump. Don’t do the fascists favors.
People who voted for Biden in the 2020 primaries did the fascists a favor. They decided they’d rather risk losing to fascists a second time than compromise with leftists. Biden did the fascists a favor when he called on congress to block the rail strike.
Fuck Joe Biden and anybody who voted for him in the 2020 primaries.
Wow. Thanks for cherry picking one thing out of hundreds to show your point! That’s a solid way of arguing.
Would you like me to cherry pick an example of one which disproves you? Or would you like to examine the evidence as a whole and actually properly examine it?
Disproves which part of what he wrote?
Or disproves the strawman you set up yourself?
Let me explain it to you since you don’t seem to understand.
OP makes a statement that all democrats and republicans act the same and are equal.
I say no, that’s not right.
Other poster says well if you look at this one example, they voted together!
I said looking at one example isn’t reflective of the whole picture. That I can just pick another example that shows they don’t vote together. You need to look at it overall instead of cherypicking facts that suit you.
Do you understand the logic there and why what you wrote makes no sense?
I can make it simpler perhaps if you need it.
OP makes a statement that all democrats and republicans act the same and are equal
Wrong. OP never wrote that - YOU made that statement as a strawman. You should try to be a more honest person.
>OP makes a statement that all democrats and republicans act the same and are equal.
that is not what they said
It’s great that you picked the one option where Democrats were trying to help thos railroad workers but Republicans refused. Then when Democrats have to continue the literal working infrastructure of the United States, they get the blame for it… Rather than the company owners and Republicans lmfao. Democrats literally didn’t not have enough votes on their own.
Sounds like Fox News is working to me. Because 90% of Lemmy does nothing but peddle it lol.
It’s great that you picked the one option where Democrats were trying to help thos railroad workers but Republicans refused.
The railroad workers didn’t need the “help” of Democrats anymore than the UAW did. They were preparing to strike and would have gotten their demands.
Do not block strikes. End of story.
The cognitive dissonance or prop washing is tangible lol.
If you sound like a Fox News segment after typing something out, maybe rethink the reality of what you’re trying to say vs what you’re actually saying. Hell, you even agreed with what I said in ad many words lol.
you sound like a Fox News segment
Find me a Fox News article stating the rail strike should not have been blocked. I’ll wait.
How about the public option with the ACA? The Democrats used their super majority to pass a Republican crafted bill that simply enshrined the shitty status quo into law, even going so far as to fine you if you didn’t participate in said system. We still pay the highest per capita amount for healthcare in the entire world. What did we really get out of that? The end of “pre-existing conditions” and the option to purchase the same expensive, bare-bones insurance coverage from someone besides your employer?
Yeah, yeah, just shut down any discussion with this canned response calling the other person a fascist. The drunk, neglectful mother is really the good parent because the father is verbally, and sometimes physically, abusive. We shall never criticize the mother because we are so fortunate to have her and that is the end of the discussion.
Buddy, I came from a household like that. The less abusive one is absolutely better.
We, in America, are living that abuse right now. You either choose the less abusive, or watch the other one fuck entire world up.
I also came up in an abusive household, so here’s somerhing to think about: who’s worse, the abuser who only knows abuse because they were abused, or the one who allows it to happen even though they know it’s wrong? That’s what we have now. The reps suck, no doubt, but the dems sit back and twiddle their thumbs and allow the corporations to fuck us all over while pretending to give a shit. They don’t give a shit because they’ve sold us out for a little bigger piece of pie.
Wow this is an insane take. I don’t often speak to right wingers but this is pretty far from reality. None of what you wrote is accurate and I never called anyone a fascist.
I’m just relying on the evidence that clearly doesn’t line up with whatever rhetoric you’re spewing. Jeez that’s vile though.
When you say:
“One party is at least trying to push laws through that help”
You’re getting closer to my point.You admit how ineffectual they are. The dems pretend to help while lettting themselves get steamrolled by the repubs. This is not accidental. How do I know this? Look at the shit that really matters to the war machine, that shit always passes: money for the war in Ukraine (that we instigated), money for Israel (who just happen to be committing genocide right now), money for the military budget (last year they gave them 50 billion extra that they didn’t even have to ask for). That’s 886 BILLION dollars to spread “democracy” to countries around the world. That’s more than the next 10 countries spent on their military combined.
Either you’ve lived life under a rock to not notice the shit going on around you, or you’re a shill for the dems. Pull your head out of your rectum and look around. People are hurting, and if you’re not, good for you, you’re lucky. How long do you think your luck will hold out?
I’m not admitting how ineffectual they are. It’s just hard to push laws through when one party is clearly trying to stop you from doing the right thing.
It’s like saying that people fighting for climate change are the same as those arguing against climate change because they’re not getting climate change law through.
Your point either makes no sense or you’re arguing in bad faith. I wish it was the first but I’ve dealt with too many people who are just trolling and reporting right wing rhetoric.
Whenever dems start losing an argument these days, they’re quick to call it “right-wing rhetoric”. I take this as an ad-hominem attack since I’ve been a lefty all my life. I voted for Bill Clinton. I voted for Barack Obama in 2008. I would have voted for Bernie Sanders in 2016, but the lying, cheating fucks in the DNC stole the nomination, and we ended up with a clown-ass gameshow host as president.
Hey, guess what single entity in the world is the biggest polluter. The US fucking military. The same military that dems and reps overwhelmingly vote to give mountains of cash to every fucking year.
You say I’M arguing in bad faith? The other (literally Machiavellian) tactic that shit-libs like to use is to accuse the opposition of the thing they themselves are guilty of. I like how you glossed right over the whole funding the military aspect of my argument, as if murdering people for their resources is just business as usual. Obviously you’re not affected by it so why should you care?
Biden if you were looking for a chance to prove you’re about reform and equality for working classes
No. Shut up. Sit down. If you don’t vote for Biden, then you ain’t working class, Jack.
Biden is 99% composed of Hitler particles he’s not doing jack other than killing Palestinians.
As opposed to Trump, who’s only following the Hitler playbook and seeking to aid and abett Putin in dismantling the entire western world?
Spoiler: Everyone is going to die. Not just the West. Everyone. Putin thinks so much less of everyone than Putin and Trump.
I wish trump was going to aid the dissolution of the west lol. You’re giving him too much credit. In actuality the only thing he would do differently is dominate the US’s allies slightly more and spread slightly more racist rhetoric. Considering the US empire will commit genocide in either case nothing justifies legitimizing it by participating.
I hope future people will give him the medal he deserves instead.
Let’s make sure that neither cristofacists nor
corporation-friendly libertarianseconomically-minded individuals come to power.
That was a great, well sourced article.
We need more people like him
In other words, don’t fucking give up that you’re the source, and journalists mustn’t give up their sources either.
Or, you could flee to another country. Is Edward Snowden still alive?
I’m amazed Reality Winner is still alive.
That name probably makes it hard to search for her. I’m too lazy to try and prove my assertion one way or another
Seems it’s the opposite, the unique combo is popping up plenty. I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s changed it since.
