But every lactose intolerant person I know drinks milk and eats ice cream almost in spite of themselves, they don’t even consider lactaid.
O…kay?
I mean I exclusively use lactaid brand ice cream and milk, it’s pretty good. And I do take lactaid sometimes when I eat some dairy, but it’s not like a perfect fix, it helps so that I don’t want to die, but like dairy still hurts, so I avoid it. When I can.
As someone who can’t eat gluten, I’d love this.
I get bread equivalents made with tapioca and rice yet somehow that shit is charged at a premium
at firehouse subs a gluten free roll costs +$1.50, they don’t even prepare it separately from normal bread and use all the same tools for it (except for not cutting it) so it’s not actually properly gluten-free, it’s almost certainly contaminated with gluten.
jersey mikes also charges +$1.50 (medium) to +$3.00 (large) to get gluten-free bread, but at least they have to go through a whole ritual to prepare it where they use COMPLETELY different tools and gloves and stuff, and it is generally actually non-contaminated unless, you specify that it’s not for allergies.
source: i worked at both firehouse subs and jersey mikes before, i fucking hated when people ordered gluten-free at jersey mikes but i always did it as required obviously. i didn’t actually ever charge extra to people who were getting gluten free because i didn’t know that was an option on the cash register at first lol, but even after i learned i just forgot / didn’t care enough to do it. some people were really grateful and thanked me after seeing me go through an entire process to make sure the gluten-free sub had no gluten on it
It’s not charged at a premium, it costs more to produce and deliver.
The entire process needs to be completely seperated from wheat flour. And the production numbers are lower, so all fixed costs need to be distributed over a lower number of sales units.I have a friend in the food industry who explained the costs and issues to me. They’ve seen people go into anaphylactic shock because of mis-prepared foods. The amount of work that goes into foods for people who have allergies or celiac is exponentially higher. Not only is there just figuring out how to make, say, bread look and taste like bread along with having similar nutritional qualities, all of the ingredients used in that preparation have to individually be verified to not be contaminated with any of the ingredients that someone might have a problem with. For instance, some flours might be gluten-free, but have a soy additive for thickening that you wouldn’t think to look for because it’s flour…who would add soy to it? But selling a gluten-free cupcake that you haven’t verified is soy-free to someone with a reaction to soy could potentially kill them.
It’s a really big deal.
So that’s why allergen and gluten-free foods cost so much more. I’m not saying there isn’t a prepared because they can, but the additional safeguards in production of foods like this has a price.
Not to mention that you have to prepare and store it in an entirely different area. Otherwise you have to completely scrub the same area to try and prevent cross contamination and probably special air filtration systems to keep flour out of the air. I had a coworker tell me she got anaphylaxis once over an apple getting small amounts of flour on it. It is almost better to get pre-made from another company where it comes sealed and serve it that way.
I feel for people with severe food allergies. I thankfully only have a severe cat allergy, but I had a friend with a soy allergy. He refused to eat out as most employees either don’t know, will have to spend 10+ minutes trying to read every single label, or will misunderstand and say it doesn’t anyways. If we were cooking for him, we could at least check or show him all of the ingredients beforehand.
but it is still a violation of the ADA to add that for the accomidation of the disability. Also, in a sain world built for people, we would not charge extra for providing the safe guards needed to not kill people.
What about the extra charge for gluten free buns? Or vegan chese? Or impossible burgers? If I can’t ride my bike up big hills can i get an e-bike for the same price? If I’m very tall can i get an airplane seat upgrade for free?
I have Celiac Disease and let me tell you, I would love to see gluten free items cost the same as regular foods. The only thing you apparently can do is to include an itemized list of GF items you’ve bought over the year and include it in your tax return. However, the amount of bureaucracy is probably a great deterrent for people like me to not do this and just eat the extra cost.
gluten free buns
For people with gluten intolerance, they’d have a similar case. Lactose intolerance isn’t a choice just as much as gluten intolerance isn’t a choice.
Source: I’ve had a friend who has had celiac disease his whole life. I was jealous of him in high school because he was always so skinny, and I didn’t know he had it. Not fucking jealous anymore.
Yeah. I have a friend who can’t have onions, garlic, dairy, or gluten. At least dairy and gluten have decent subs now. Losing onion and garlic would be miserable!
If I can’t ride my bike up big hills can i get an e-bike for the same price?
If you have a disability you can get a mobility scooter
If I’m very tall can i get an airplane seat upgrade for free?
Neither the very tall (nor the obese for that matter) are part of a protected class, and their relative sizes are not considered disabilities. However those physical conditions can lead to disabilities (heart and joint issues for example) which then lead to reasonable accommodation.
Your straw men are cute, but this isn’t Kansas, we don’t need them here
Appreciate the Kansas side burn
Can you explain why the examples they gave are different than the case at hand? I think they have a point but I’m interested in hearing the opposing viewpoint (yours) before I form an opinion on the situation.
TBH, not much, except that in the case of dairy and gluten intolerance there’s a case to be made for reasonable accommodation under the ADA. The rest of his comments were increasingly silly
Also there’s many things wrong with American disability law, social safety nets, and the complete dysfunction of what passes for “healthcare”. Splitting hairs on what constitutes a disability is emblematic of these failings.
I was just 90 percent goofing and ‘what abouting.’ It’s only an issue because we have milk alternatives. Dairy bothers me but i don’t care for the alt milks so i mostly order tea. If i really want a coffee i get a small splash of milk and deal with the consequences. Also, there’s a whole thing with whether it’s milk sugar or milk fat or A1/A2 that bothers people - so sometimes skim milk or A2 milk is less upsetting and no more expensive.
Lol okay sorry if i came on too strong
Hmm with all due respect I’m leaning towards not liking this lawsuit. Similar to splitting hairs on what constitutes a disability, I think calling an allergy a disability cheapens the system.
I think what would be “most fair” in this scenario would be for healthcare to cover lactaid like it does with epipens, etc.
For the record, I am pro-ADA and pro-nationalised healthcare. I just feel like this lawsuit is frivilous
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This whole title reads like a joke.
I’m guessing because it fits the definition as laid out by the Americans with Disabilities Act?
Kind of like that section that every law has in order to avoid stupid questions like this?
Because people believe it is and they believe they should be catered to.
This is quite the reach. I say this as a disabled person
I’m sorry but lactose intolerance is not a disability.
- it is, it is similar to an alergy and 2) legaly it is considered a disability under the ADA if someone or a group of people would consider it as one… have you been to wisconsin
It’s also not an equivalent product. It’s not like you get to choose if milk has lactose, the dairy-free option has completely different components and sources.
Except you can. The lactose-free milk has lactase added, which is the enzyme needed to break down lactose. Otherwise it’s more or less the same product.
Oh, right, that. For some reason my mind immediately went to Oat Milk and other plant based dairy. I love Oatmilk, it works for breadmaking too.
Shout out to oat milk. The best substitute milk in general, but the absolute star for substitutions in baking.
This is the same as the argument that tall people need more leg room on a plane, and shouldn’t be charged to upgrade their seat. Or that someone with a bad back should be able to fly business for free.
I mean, certain airlines are starting to adopt size policies which will grant you an additional seat if you are overweight. Why is it such a stretch to believe that tall people should receive the same accommodation?
I’d say that if anything, the tall people should receive the accommodation but the overweight people should not.
both in this cases these would be counted as disabilites under the ADA… also there is no reason why someone who is overweight should not be accomidated
Ooh ooh I know the answer to this one. Just make normal dairy drinkers pay 2 dollars extra that way no one is being discriminated against and the corporate coffers are set to be overflowing.
Whether or not lactose intolerance is a disability or not push back on this is pushback on all special orders getting a premium price across the board. No one with a disability should have to pay extra for standard access.
Can’t access the site, but isn’t non-dairy milk often more expensive?
Dairy is ludicrously subsidized, and as such cheaper than it really should be.
And that changes what?
I don’t think that it is. At least the soy milk I sometimes drink is cheaper than the organic cows milk my wife drinks. Oat probably is more expensive.
Reminds of how back in the day, few places had veg options but would often have a bean version that was cheaper than the meat version cool. Now? Restaurants will have less bean options but have an Impossible meat option that’s more expensive than meat 🙄
To produce? No
As sold? Yes
Prediction: Starbucks resolves the issue by raising all “milk” product prices to match the most expensive option.
This person capitalisms
Eww! No I don’t! Take it back!
Lol why wouldn’t they. I would.
If I had to change my burgers and fries prices at my burger joint so they are the same price as vegan burgers and non-peanut oil, I’d just raise the prices of everything to the new floor.
Because the reality people are shitty and they are going to claim the accommodation whether they have the “disability” or not.
And then they blame it on the lawsuit.
Because of government subsidies, yes.
Nope, capitalism
State capitalism.
The plaintiffs say in the lawsuit that lactose intolerance is a disability listed under the Americans with Disabilities Act, and the surcharges violate that act.
Is it though? I mean don’t get me wrong, it sucks that people who are lactose intolerant have to pay more, but is it really a disability?
Lactose intolerance is the default for adults too. Them calling it a disability is wild.
I am allergic to milk. If I ingest it I will die full stop. Food allergies should be considered as a disability in this case because if I wanted coffee with soy milk I shouldn’t be made to pay extra for something out of my control. That being said since my allergies are severe enough I don’t eat anything I don’t make myself so this wouldn’t impact me anyway but I agree with the principle of the case.
What if the dairy substitute was 10x the cost of real milk, I know it isn’t, but what if it were. Or even 100x, just for argument. Are you entitled to get that for the same price?
The issue with the ADA is that it does not specify what counts as a disability, rather it gives an explanation of what is considered a disability. This leads to endless confusion and to court cases exactly like this, which are leveraging the text of the ADA as it stands to make their point.
The lawyer quoted in the article is correct, considering they already accommodate people with diabetes without surcharge, it can be argued the same courtesy needs to be extended to the lactose intolerant, who do not have a “choice” in whether they can consume dairy.
Because they cannot just consume dairy like other customers, the lawyer is arguing that no longer charging for the difference is a “reasonable accomodation” to the fact that their clients bodies cannot process dairy. That definitely rises to the same level of reasoning for those who suffer diabetes, in my opinion.
Anyway, that’s the frustrating thing about a lot of the ADA. It basically requires people who don’t know if their unique position qualifies them to spend a lot of money on lawyers up-front just to find out if the courts will actually accept that as true. It’s really well fucked because most disabled people don’t have money to be pissing away on such a legal project. Most of them are busy just trying to survive. In other words, most of the time you have to hope a lawyer will take up your case pro-bono.
Source: My cancer isn’t cancery or debilitating enough to count as a disability, even though “cancer” is in the list on the ADA website.
This leads to endless confusion and to court cases exactly like this, which are leveraging the text of the ADA as it stands to make their point.
That’s how common-law systems are designed to work, though (along with delegation to regulators in the executive branch). You can’t really expect the legislature to think through every single nuance and corner-case a-priori, right?
Oh of course, but I was speaking of people who are seriously disabled (not just people with lactose intolerance) and that severely impacts their ability to just go out and get a lawyer to fight for their rights.
Like, the lactose intolerant, I’m pretty okay with them needing to come up with the money to prove it in court. Lactose intolerance may be considered a disability, but it doesn’t rise to the level of disability that makes it hard to hold a job.
However, a lot of other people are stuck, shit out of luck, unable to work, hell, often unable to move, and they’re still fighting for their problems to be recognized as a disability. Further, even with a disability that’s accepted as a disability, you still have to go to court and fight, often for years, to get a disability recognized. You’re not allowed to work while you’re waiting for that classification. It’s just a bad system for it.
The common-law system is fine and good, but we’re all aware of how it’s absolutely tilted in favor of people who have money and against those who don’t.
Yeah like if they had a mega list of every disability they could think of, but forgot one, or a new one is discovered, what happens in court? Said new/forgotten disability wouldn’t legally be a disability.
I got a disability lump sum for temporary disability due to a nerve disorder. It was based on my previous income and the percentage of time an expert judge I was able to work. (20% according to the expert.)
I only for $14,000 for 3 years of being disable.
The disorder is now managed with medication, incidentally.
I’m lactose intolerant but even I think this is absurd. What about every other food allergy in existence? Should substitutions cost the same even if the ingredients don’t? Furthermore, we’re talking about a splurge item from a coffee shop. You can still make coffee at home or buy coffee without milk in it.
What’s absurd is that Almond, Soy, and Oat doesn’t cost more than dairy milk when you look at prices at a grocery. But Starbucks charges extra for it anyway.
I think a lot of people have no idea that many dairy alternatives are essentially the same price now. And that’s at a retail consumer level where the markups are biggest in the chain, bulk wholesale like what Starbucks pays would have an even smaller gap.
People are assuming there’s a massive difference in price, that just doesn’t really exist anymore… And that also ignores the absolutely MASSIVE markup Starbucks has for their coffee in the first place. It definitely doesn’t cost Starbucks $.50 to use Oat milk instead of regular milk, but that’s what they might charge the consumer for the substitution in a $6 coffee that cost them maybe $0.50 to make.
What’s absurd is thinking that this argument makes logical sense. Do you think Starbucks buys milk at the grocery store? What do you think the ratio of milk to each milk alternative is? 100:1? 1000:1? The scale at which the purchase each would greatly affect the price.
When I worked at a restaurant that used a lot of milk it came in a 3 or 5 gallon plastic sack that went into a dispensing machine. Milk alternatives are likely purchased by the case in consumer packaging. The cost is entirely different.
Well the ADA only requires ‘reasonable’ accommodations. So I guess the logic of this case would be that if the substitution only costs a little bit more than the original ingredient then they should offer it at the same price. But this would still allow for business to charge extra when making the substitution would be ‘unreasonably’ expensive.
Therein lies the rub as what one person considers reasonable another might not. Charging 1:1 for the increased cost of almond or soy milk seems reasonable but charging an additional markup over what they set for dairy milk might not be.
If their case has merit, I hope they win, but I honestly wish these lawyer fees and court time could be better used to tackle more lucrative issues like suing Ticketmaster/Live Nation for their whole anti-consumer business model and price gouging or suing Comcast for their monopoly in my area. There are probably 1000 different places to buy coffee in my city but only one way to buy event tickets and one company offering broadband/high speed internet.
Lactose intolerance is actually normal. It’s tolerance to lactose as an adult that is biologically unusual, and mostly unique to westerners. Because most of us continue eating dairy products after infancy, we continue being able to digest them. However other cultures don’t continue consuming dairy after infancy, and thus lose their ability to digest it effectively.
It’s a really tough argument to claim it as a disability. I don’t see this case going well for the plaintiffs.
That’s a super weird point of view. If your argument is wrt global averages and your view of normal is black hair, brown eyes, and some average between average Chinese and Indian populations, I suppose you’re right…but not in a way that’s remotely useful.
Adult lactose digestion (called lactase persistence) has evolved a few times from various mutations — one that happened in Europe, and several in Africa and the Middle East. It’s not caused in individuals by continued consumption.
So you’re saying that I am disabled because I can drink milk?
Oh and just to clarify I don’t drink milk that shit is disgusting, but I can.
Even if it isn’t, I’d prefer a world where people aren’t shitting their pants or leaving toxic fart clouds in their wake because they need to save .50 on a coffee.
Gluten free up charge is a thing everywhere and Starbucks is so overpriced that I go to a gas station for the occasional cup of to go coffee I get and there’s no real dairy anywhere there.
If it does, then the cost difference to the business should be subsidized / written off in taxes.
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If you adhere to that philosophy, then why not adhere to the fact that there are other coffee shops customers can take their business and let the better shop who can achieve cheaper rates for alternative milks win as opposed to imposing a price control?
This isn’t Healthcare where shopping around isn’t an option, and it isn’t a niche thing where there isn’t competition.
Shit I’m all for strong market regulations, but this might be a tad too far and ignorant to business ownership – especially one where we seek new entrepreneurs and not mega companies who can afford teams of lawyers.
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Because no one has ever made an unjust law, right?
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Yeah of course, that’s so unfair to tell business people that they can’t overcharge people
Can you demonstrate that they are overcharging? Have you calculated the costs? Did you include the extra refrigeration space required, the wholesale cost of bulk milk in non-consumer packaging versus milk alternatives likely purchased by the case in consumer packaging? Do their distributors charge more for milk alternatives because they represent a lower volume than traditional milk.
So here is how this goes just so you know.
Now all of the drinks go up in price so that the charge is just absorbed by the other customers.
The business makes no less money, hell they probably make more profit now and now everyone has to pay extra.
Well no shit, but the obvious questions hanging over us are: 1) Does this apply to the letter of the law, or the spirit; and second to that 2) should such a law exist? 3) Why are you invoking double-standards for business competition when arguably coffee shops who don’t meet a competitive price-point for a non-essential item will lose? I say again what was clearly deflected: a) this is not a situation where consumers cannot shop around, and b) this is not a niche service that cannot be found elsewhere.
If you want markets whatsoever and thriving small-businesses, this is the kind of shit that as an aggregation cripples competition with mega-corporations
lol wut
this only makes sense if they’re making like 3x in profits over normal dairy.
Could someone with lactose intolerance not merely omit the milk?
That would be an actual reasonable accommodation in this case.
I mean that limits you to just straight black. no latte, cappuccino, nothing
not against black coffee, but that’s not why people go to starbies
I mean, this could apply very easily to a steakhouse too and vegetarians. Vegetarians would be limited to just salads and sides, but those aren’t why people go to a steakhouse.
Before everyone gets down on non-dairy milk drinkers, remember that the government subsidizes the hell out of dairy milk production to make it cheaper in the first place.
I think I’d rather get down with the sickness. (Because I’m lactose intolerant)
Yep. I would LOVE to be able to consume dairy without shitting my guts out, but as that’s not an option I get to either pay extra or go without.
Right? I would love to see a future where the right wing gets their way and makes calling almond milk “milk” illegal, but is also forced to stop subsidizing cow excretions. Do I buy the Authentic Cow Milk for $10 a gallon, or the Almond-Based Dairy Alternative for $6…?
They subsidize soy, oats, and almonds too.
Is that accurate?
I used to buy a lot of soy milk since I’m lactose intolerant and it was cheaper than milk a decade ago. But now it’s nearly the same price or double for the same brand. And now I’m wondering if it’s a Soy conspiracy.
It’s a capitalist conspiracy.
Most farming is subsidized, the debate then is which one is subsidized more. A bit of a specious argument at the end of the day.
Pretty easy answer, though, considering 2/3rds of crops are fed to cows and therefor the cost of creating dairy milk is much higher.
Soy is heavily subsidized. It’s the main crop in most Midwestern states, even more than corn.
80℅ of the world’s soy market is animal feed.
Yep, so a double subsidy for livestock. All farming is subsidized, which does have some value to keep farms producing an excess for times of need, but the amount of subsidies for some industries is insane. Republicans will talk about the free market and then advocate for socialized farming to buy votes, because they don’t actually care about logic or consistency. The same is true for coal and other forms of dirty energy that should be stomped out either by the market by now or by reasonable regulations, but instead we’ve kept them going with taxpayer money.
Isnt most soy used as animal feed tho? Or is it only from certain regions?
More to the relevant point, those alt milks are still cheaper to produce and Starbucks has the scale to do so. You know what it takes to make oatmilk? Oats, sugar, water, small amount of oil. Almond milk? Replace oat with almond, except you can use more of the material.
In oatmilk the sugar and oil are optional ingredients for taste and texture. Almost all oatmilk brands contain salt for taste.
I’ve only found one brand that uses three ingredients, oat water salt. They charge a premium for it, but it’s the best tasting one I’ve found.
Why not? I would charge more.
